Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3
Author: Subject: Cheapest, best, most available ammonium nitrate sensitizers?
Weeblordd
Harmless
*




Posts: 20
Registered: 6-8-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: high power <3

[*] posted on 11-2-2024 at 04:38


I know I overcomplicated things a little but I wanted it to be reliable on another level, it has to be failproof. But yeah, those are cool chems
View user's profile View All Posts By User
OneEyedPyro
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 279
Registered: 7-10-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-2-2024 at 09:11


Quote: Originally posted by Weeblordd  
I know I overcomplicated things a little but I wanted it to be reliable on another level, it has to be failproof. But yeah, those are cool chems


Without very specific cap design the detonation of ETN via thermal shock is more fail prone than fail proof. I can understand not wanting to deal with dangerously sensitive primaries but surely a person can do better than paper tubes and duct tape.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
dettoo456
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 177
Registered: 12-9-2021
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-2-2024 at 10:58


Yea, a >1kg, amateur-made UXO with a janky ETN cap is not something I’d want to deal with.

Primaries can be made safer (by orders of magnitude) with some binders, wetting agents, and basic PPE. An initiator made to ‘burn real fast and hopefully DDT’ is asking for unreliability.

NAP, although not fully explored, could be reliable enough to meet the req’d criteria. Same with CHP, or even a piperazine-Na-ClO4 perovskite.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
OneEyedPyro
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 279
Registered: 7-10-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-2-2024 at 12:22


Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456  
Yea, a >1kg, amateur-made UXO with a janky ETN cap is not something I’d want to deal with.

Primaries can be made safer (by orders of magnitude) with some binders, wetting agents, and basic PPE. An initiator made to ‘burn real fast and hopefully DDT’ is asking for unreliability.

NAP, although not fully explored, could be reliable enough to meet the req’d criteria. Same with CHP, or even a piperazine-Na-ClO4 perovskite.


Even a good quality flash powder is reliable for pressed ETN with good confinement. Maybe flash seems a bit rudimentary but it's generally accessible and certainly safer to handle than the usual acetylides, azides, peroxides etc.

I've never messed around with the perchlorate complexes much but from what little I did was impressed. I've wondered why they don't see commercial use, especially when lead azide is the standard to beat.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Weeblordd
Harmless
*




Posts: 20
Registered: 6-8-2018
Member Is Offline

Mood: high power <3

[*] posted on 12-2-2024 at 09:26


I bet thermal shock detonation of cast or pressed ETN with good confinement using blackpowder would be fairly reliable on its own, should have fairly high chances of detonation, and in the worst case scenario, DDT is guaranted, combined with a second melt-cast ETN

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro  

Without very specific cap design the detonation of ETN via thermal shock is more fail prone than fail proof. I can understand not wanting to deal with dangerously sensitive primaries but surely a person can do better than paper tubes and duct tape.


My main goal is to produce reliable detonators as cheap as possible, paper tubes and various kinds of glue* should be cheap enough. Other materials, are rather expensive for hundreds of detonators tbh. Will do as much testing as I possibly can.

Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro  

Primaries can be made safer (by orders of magnitude) with some binders, wetting agents, and basic PPE.


can you suggest some binders and wetting agents?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
DennyDevHE77
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 148
Registered: 15-9-2014
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-2-2024 at 09:51


Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro  
I can understand not wanting to deal with dangerously sensitive primaries


By the way, I don't understand). In fact, such detonators are dangerous only in direct contact with fingers. That is, if you simply do not let yourself touch them, then their danger is leveled. The military hardly needs such detonators, but home lovers can be forgiven for such caution.

Quote: Originally posted by Weeblordd  
My main goal is to produce reliable detonators as cheap as possible


The question is what is considered reliable. You probably know that lead azide in detonators is not used in its pure form. Either a few percent of tetrazene is added to it (if you need to increase sensitivity to pricking), or a little teneres (tricinat) is pressed on top to increase sensitivity to the ray of fire. But this was not always the case, before the Americans (it seems) tried to use black powder instead of tricinat. It provided 99% reliability. It seems to be a lot, but for the military it was completely unsatisfactory

Quote: Originally posted by Weeblordd  
can you suggest some binders and wetting agents?


The simplest thing that comes to mind from effective bundles is mouse glue based on synthetic rubbers. But I still can't figure out what use it is in detonators?

All detonators without a primary explosive usually work as follows: a low-density charge of a sensitive secondary substance (PETN or ETN) is affected by a heat flux from a high-temperature pyrotechnic composition (thermite / powder / something else). As a result, layered combustion begins in the charge of the secondary explosive, then it quickly turns into convective (gorenje gorenje gorenje between the particles of the explosive), and then the combustion breaks down into a detonation wave. Therefore, the charge must be low-density in order to accelerate the transition of combustion to detonation. Strong pressing or adding a bunch, on the contrary, will slow down this process.

[Edited on 12-2-2024 by DennyDevHE77]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
dettoo456
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 177
Registered: 12-9-2021
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 12-2-2024 at 12:18


Wetting agents are just things like water or diluted IPA, to help keep primary EMs far less sensitive in storage or during transport. As a good rule of thumb, all EMs should be kept ‘wet’ (assuming they won’t hydrolyze), except when they are immediately to be used - then they can be dried at RT in a room with good ventilation.

Binders for primary EMs are usually dextrin (like dextrinated LA), guar gum, or xanthan gum. They are usually added to water and mixed with the insoluble primary EM to coat. No more than 5% by weight is needed IMO.

Binders for secondaries (to be used as the output charge in a detonator) could include the same binders as for primaries or something simple like paraffin wax, to reduce friction and impact sens but not drastically affect performance.

Detonator design has been discussed on this forum in great length, I’d recommend strongly against finding the cheapest option for the sake of saving money. Safety and reliability is more important, especially in chemistry and in energetics in general.

A high density output EM, initiated by a low density transfer EM, initiated by a low density primer mix, ignited by a fuse, in a metal case, is all you need.

Industry has used RDX, LA, LS, and an E-match, in an Al tube for decades with no issues. These can be replaced by PETN, low density PETN, low density AgNTz, and an E-match in a metal tube, with practically identical results. Or even, stabilized (by a NOx scavenger) ETN (lightly pressed), low density stabilized ETN, NAP, and canon fuse in a hard plastic tube.

It’s not hard to ‘design’, but don’t lose your fingers in the process or go blind.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
OneEyedPyro
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 279
Registered: 7-10-2015
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-2-2024 at 15:49


Quote: Originally posted by DennyDevHE77  


By the way, I don't understand). In fact, such detonators are dangerous only in direct contact with fingers. That is, if you simply do not let yourself touch them, then their danger is leveled. The military hardly needs such detonators, but home lovers can be forgiven for such caution.

[Edited on 12-2-2024 by DennyDevHE77]


You can't compare industrial detonators that use well tested and proven materials and manufacturing methods to ones using homemade EMs and improvised detonator bodies/components.
Let's not forget that in reality, literally nobody uses detonators without at some point physically manipulating them during manufacture, transportation and insertion into the main charge.

Given the potential consequences of an accidental detonation, it only makes sense to mitigate any unnecessary risk over what amounts to a simple fascination or hobby for most people.

[Edited on 12-2-2024 by OneEyedPyro]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3

  Go To Top