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Author: Subject: another Global Warming thread cleanup
hissingnoise
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More shit from the Koch bros, their acolytes, or some like-minded fucktards designed to sow further confusion in the CC debate!

Vogelzang
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climategate 2.0
http://www.climatedepot.com/a/13799/BREAKING-NEWS-Climategat...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100119087/...

[Edited on 22-11-2011 by Vogelzang]
hissingnoise
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This latest release of emails is obviously just another underhand ploy to further 'poison the atmosphere' in the run up to Durban!
And the fossil-fuel industry's merchants of doubt tactics have certainly had the desired effect - even Polverone has rowed back somewhat on things he said earlier . . .
The major polluters know very well (they learned much from the tobacco industry's 'difficulties') that affecting the public's perceptions on climate change can drain political will to put in place the measures needed to control GHG emissions!
Climate-change, it seems, will roll on umimpeded - and due in large part to good old human greed!
All-in-all a pretty depressing prospect . . .

ScienceSquirrel
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Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination!

The Cold War was pretty hot and deadly depending on where you lived and when.
The Korean War and others were places where the Cold War broke out and there was the pretty scary Cuban missile as well.
Cold War politicing made the Middle East a pretty bad place. Egypt, Libya, etc would be in a far better position was it not for it.
IrC
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"But, having lived through WWII in the UK, threats of 'nuclear winter' , 'a new ice age', the cold war, etc., one gets a bit tired of alarmists."

Never gave that thought but your right it likely makes me cynical as well as distrustful of the opinion of many. I remember the missile crisis, being taught duck and cover in school, and the 60's - 70's waiting for the nukes. This being immersed completely in such an atmosphere of negative vibes and doom and gloom with no escape is not something easy to explain to the latest generation. It was a way of life with death as the only escape. However after looking carefully at the way of the world today I still think we had it better back then.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
Mr. Wizard
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Here is the story of Henny Penny or Chicken Little, and the phrase 'The sky is Falling'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny

Rosco Bodine
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So....the sociopolitical / philosophical / psychological / (and) scientific analysis findings would be that an acorn hit
Chicken Little on the head therefore the sky is falling ...

Precisely ....Here, here.....I'll drink to that ! It's like we got now by popular demand the "let's do green energy like the little engine that could" says IPCC and obummer / solyndra / no nuclear but windmill the earth .... sycophants .....
( on sycophants sp? ....maybe "psycho fans" spelling is more correct ? )

IrC
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"Would you also go as far to say that every human should be allotted the same amount of resources?"

Not sure exactly how you mean this. If you mean everyone is owed and deserves the same amount then no way in hell. We have what we do from working for it, no free lunch for decent and able people. If they can work and are too lazy to let them starve. No one is owed more than what they fairly earn except for those who deserve to be taken care of. I will first point out if I say 'our' or 'we' I mean in the U.S.. I think people should work and earn what they receive unless they are not able to. I would let the occupy crowd die in the cold before I would hand them something they were able to work for but refused to simply because they decided all is owed to them. They complain because their Harvard degree does not get them a job. Unshaven, filthy, unwilling to bust ass and try. No one in my life ever gave me anything, not an education nor my first car. I worked too young to have an SSN at a full time job after school and likewise all further education I earned while working. Almost 60 years old and not one dime from any entity I did not earn myself. Up to and including supporting myself from 14 on. No unemployment, SS or medicaid, nothing from anyone. I have zero sympathy for anyone able but too lazy to work and too brainwashed by the progressives into this entitlement mentality which is and will destroy our once great Republic.

I believe people are entitled to the resources they earn fairly. This means big conglomerates (or governments, dictatorships, etc.) robbing people is also wrong. 'Fairly' covers much ground in this answer, including things coming from abroad. If you are talking about resources bought from other countries being unfair on our part that is simple. Have the people in those countries stop selling it. I would rather every drop of our oil came from our ground. Yet the gov blocks this forcing us to give 4 trillion a year to our enemies. I think if I understood your question properly in effect the opposite of your premise is true. We buy more but it is the numbers of bodies which take the greatest toll on renewable resources such as food.

From this I might point out China and India are the greatest takers of resources quite simply due to the sheer number of bodies to sustain. Have not studied the carbon footprint of a hundred million vehicles not driven 24/7 to that of 6.5 billion people being alive 24/7 but I think my SUV is safe from blame relatively speaking. I seldom go anywhere. Less that 100 miles/month anymore.

As to oil we have enough here for 200 or more years, plenty long enough to tide us over until science catches up with better forms of energy. I would like nothing more than to drop to dead zero the money spent overseas on oil and we have the oil here to do just this. If only we were allowed. As to resources here what we do with them is none of the business of the rest of the planet (assuming we are not creating conditions detrimental to life elsewhere - in this I mean as far as it is our right to use resources on our soil), and for most of the last hundred years we have used much of our oil and that bought overseas producing the food and goods the overpopulated parts of the world has needed to survive. You do not think Russia would have survived the last 50 years as well as they have without our wheat do you? Or many other countries for that matter. How much of this oil was used in this world feeding production? If they complain today we buy too much they should consider what price their food would have been without our artificially low priced supply of that food. Do they think it grows into bags of wheat or do they think energy is needed for it's production? I have read stories of food riots due to pricing and diminishing supply and I know this relates to our being less able to supply the quantities at the prices we once did. I also believe this is entirely due to government standing in the way of our once great farming and production. As well as everything else which includes demanding most of the corn be turned into a less cost effective, less productive fuel.

Without us spending our trillions the bulk of the planet would be impoverished goat herders. If they still are living this way, blame whoever over there is receiving these trillions and not spending it on their people. Building islands for tourists with untold billions and developing armies and nukes while their people rot in tents in the desert? Right. Makes no sense to me.

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
Sedit
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 Quote: I would let the occupy crowd die in the cold before I would hand them something they were able to work for but refused to simply because they decided all is owed to them.

Sort of off topic but can someone explain to me why the world cheered as Egypt and Libya protest over threw the government but when it happens in the states its just a bunch of dirty stupid hippies looking for a hand out? If it was around my area I would no doubt join in on the protest and I do work 84 hour weeks most of the time, don't want hand outs other then insurance for my kids and I believe this could be fixed with a change in the prices of the medical system(they charge to damn much for to little work). These people, atlest not all of them are not worthless hippys, they are people that have realized if we don't do something now we are all screwed. People can cry about global warming but our governments of the world will kill us all well before Global warming will.

This is no doubt a fact because if GW is real there will be wars over resources well before GW becomes a deadly issue.,

Knowledge is useless to useless people...

"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
IrC
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"But I would, and have, give a buck or pocket change to a bum in NYC for his next beer, wine or coffee, his choice."

Me too so much to so many over a lifetime. In all cases they were polite, not demanding nor claiming they were owed a thing. In a large number of cases they did not ask. Whether from pride or fear of the man I did not always know. In many areas you get hammered by the law for asking people for money or whatever at the time. Eventually many figured out the sign angle. If they do not approach to ask they are not in violation. Many locales have outlawed even that. Charity is a good thing in many ways. It is those who demand and take who deserve lead over gold. Amazing what a difference the periodic table makes. Equally so for attitude.

Back to stuff. I would be interested if the high tech number crunchers here could give stats on how much CO2 is increased because of deforestation, less trees to suck it up and so on. Not to mention the carbon increase from the rampant burning of those bulldozed forests. I am convinced the increase from this factor is significant. On the subject of knee jerk laws badly thought out to reduce pollution I have experience. Polverone mentioned LA years back. I remember well in 1979 being stuck in LA for days when the air was still. You could not see the horizon and my eyes burned nonstop, breathing was a problem. He is not wrong in this I was there and it sucked. This started occurring in Phoenix in the early 80's on a lesser scale in the winter. So they mandated IIRC the acronym correctly MTBE in the gas. By the following winter you could not see South mountain from Indian school road in December. I developed serious asthma in my 30's having never before in my life exhibited this problem. Upon burning in traffic the stuff was filling the valley with formaldehyde and other bad things which I learned I was highly allergic to. This caused nearly fatal closing off of my airways, I lived on inhalers breathing as if through tiny straws. Hell on earth and as often as I could I went up north to breath mountain air.

The increase in elderly deaths skyrocketed over about a decade, mostly from heart failure induced by severe breathing problems. The rate of childhood asthma rose so high studies easily correlated the cause, especially when comparing to off winter seasons where air flowed through the valley more clearing up the haze. Many people died over these years directly caused by this gas additive and eventually lawmakers were forced to stop the mandate. Not surprisingly the rates among the elderly and the young for these troubles which included increases in the stats for allergies dropped very quickly and have not risen since by any noticeable amount.

So you had the green forces screaming the earth is doomed and lobbying to get this additive mandated and the result was a city strewn with corpses and severely debilitated people all in the name of crap science. You people are the best chemists I have encountered so tell me how hard would it have been to before the fact work out what the byproducts of burning this additive with gas would be. Also, what the resulting harm would be from filling a valley full of stagnant air in the winter with these byproducts, inhabited with several million formerly healthy people. I have experienced first hand the suffering caused by bad science combined with bad politics, all in the name of mother earth.

Sadly I see us heading there again on an unprecedented scale. I really do hope we survive the coming things meant to make us all healthier. However I have serious doubts we will.

"Sort of off topic but can someone explain to me why the world cheered as Egypt and Libya protest over threw the government but when it happens in the states its just a bunch of dirty stupid hippies looking for a hand out?"

You judge people by their actions. We have a procedure for redress of grievances and it does not include the actions these people are taking. The Tea Party lawfully assembled and paid for permits. No millions were given to them unlike this recent crowd, who pay for nothing and flagrantly disobey the law of the land. The Tea Party is a group not well connected nor funded, consisting mostly of average people who had never before been involved in such actions. All was peaceful and no businesses comprised of innocent people were made to suffer.

If you bother to watch the news and listen to the stories a very large number of businesses in no way connected to large corporations have been forever destroyed and many people are out of work as a direct result of actions by these 'occupiers'. The rapes, deaths, destruction of property, chasing and terrifying small children on their way to school, the antisemitism, mayhem in general, urinating and defecating in public even in front of children are nothing more than the actions of beasts. They behave worse than animals in the wilderness while claiming to be out of work civilized graduates. So you tell me. The law abiding quite civilized Tea Party is unceasingly demonized by the media, the left, and our Marxist in chief all while this crowd is beloved and can do no wrong. This while the taxpayers subsidize those who refuse to work and carry their own weight.

This occupy crowd if they ever had a legitimate message has destroyed all credibility by their actions and I will have no sympathy for them. Stop electing people who maintain a corrupt system and when the new officials start down the same path fire them as well. We are a nation of laws and things should be done lawfully.

As to the revolts in the middle east when the brotherhood takes over and they are all forced to live under sharia law we will see how happy they are with their 'hope and change'.

"So, How would you do it IRC, How would you in todays world rise to the status of home owner under those or similar conditions(homes in NY can with ease be over a quarter million dollars for a small rancher)?"

I will answer up here while edit still works to avoid endless posts. Simple, I would get the hell out of N.Y. Period. There are other schools and no school is worth living there. I was an engineer in a R&D lab in Phoenix and my company talked me into going there to live. I had to agree to stay 12 months or pay the bonus back. I hated the place right off the bat and prices were beyond belief, and it was only 1981. I could not imagine it now.

A single crap cardboard box of a room in Westchester County was $1,500/M minimum. So whats new. I rented houses in Phoenix for 250 which were much better. I know not your age so unsure what you have experienced but money was a million times harder to come by in the 70's and jobs simply did not exist during the Mr Peanut years. Only after Reagan in the 80's did it lighten up. You make it sound impossible now but I promise you it was much harder then. The easy time was in the 50's and early 60's but I was too young and too stupid to plan ahead for the nightmare next decade. Believe me I supported myself then, and now, I know the difference. Only in the last 3 years with this concerted progressive effort to wreck the economy am I seeing signs of another 70's revisited and it looks like it will get even worse than I have ever known. Also I see no evidence this one will ever get better. So what do you do? Either win the lotto or move somewhere you can reasonably live and get into a good home, and do it while you still can. Time is rapidly running out. If that area is all you have ever known then you are not able to judge by living it but believe me N.Y. is not where you go to slowly work your way up outside of independent wealth to begin with. Common sense dictates you go where you have a chance and do it while you still can or you will end up being left with no chance. One question I have is why protest the banks for exorbitant loans students cannot pay back? None of them are protesting their schools which set the loan shark tuition rates prompting you to need such high dollar loans. Is it not common sense that if colleges were 400 percent cheaper then the loans would be 400 percent less? Yet I never hear this mentioned by the protesters. Also banks and corporations are tightly regulated. It is Washington where the crowds should be protesting and the politicians on both sides which are directly responsible for the entire mess we all are facing. Yet I see no crowds showing civil disobedience there ever. I am amazed by the fact that supposed graduates remain unaware of the simple facts in this last paragraph. "I get really irritated when I hear people brainwashed by media about the people that are protesting." This is confusing as all the mainstream media I see are firmly on the side of the protesters. It is not brainwashing to report factual stories about the things going on. That is called news. If it upsets you that they look bad do not shoot the messenger, put blame where it is due. If they behave badly who's fault is that. Only those behaving in such a way. If by their lawless actions they look bad blame them not those talking about it. While very off topic you asked so I thought I should answer, what I see in both media and in government is precisely opposite to what you are claiming. Here are three links showing the difference in the way the law abiding group is treated compared to the lawless one. I do not see how anyone can conclude the occupiers deserve to be treated better than a group of law abiding taxpayers yet there it is. http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/11/outrage-after-demand... http://biggovernment.com/cowens/2011/11/28/richmond-city-aud... http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2011/11/29/ny-times-book-re... [Edited on 11-29-2011 by IrC] "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman Sedit International Hazard Posts: 1915 Registered: 23-11-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: Manic Expressive  Quote: Almost 60 years old and not one dime from any entity I did not earn myself. Up to and including supporting myself from 14 on. No unemployment, SS or medicaid, nothing from anyone. I have zero sympathy for anyone able but too lazy to work and too brainwashed by the progressives into this entitlement mentality which is and will destroy our once great Republic. This is where your logic fails as much as I normally agree with you. When you where younger the system was different and the money values where not the same. If you attempted to get on your feet today I am sure you would find it a totally different world and have a better understanding of why there are people in the streets pissed off and protesting. NY is a prime example, can you explain to me how, if you where 18 again, would afford to pay the$1200 -$2000 a month rent for a single bedroom apartment in NY while at the same time paying for school and finding the time to go to school in between work which would more then likely only pay you less then what rent is a month. What would your game plan be in todays world not 30-40 years ago? The vast majority of people that live in NY did not make it to the top there. They moved there after making it to the top. Those people on the top have raised the cost of living to the point where it is virtually impossible to start from the bottom and work your way up. The protesters claim its 1%.... I would be willing to bet you that less then one percent of the population of NY makes a living and manages to live a decent life from the bottom up in NY. So, How would you do it IRC, How would you in todays world rise to the status of home owner under those or similar conditions(homes in NY can with ease be over a quarter million dollars for a small rancher)? If one thing went wrong such as not gaining a high school diploma past the age at which they give out student loans for college to add one more cog in the wheel? I get really irritated when I hear people brainwashed by media about the people that are protesting. They are not great by a long shot but its a start it the right direction. Go look at this months Time Magazine cover for a general idea of how the media is ignoring the protest around the world. Look at the cover for the USA and look at the Time cover for the rest of the world. The USA says "Anxiety is good for you" .... while the rest of the world shows a picture of Egyptian protesters. We are being lied to and if that's not a reason to protest government and corporation corruption I don't know what is. PS: Your Social security and retirement funds are about to be up for grabs as well so since they are done destroying the youth of America they are now about to hit you up as well. Think about this alot before responding because your financial situation may change dramatically in the next few years(I don't know where you sit now so I hope no offense is taken) Knowledge is useless to useless people... "I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan IrC International Hazard Posts: 2710 Registered: 7-3-2005 Location: Eureka Member Is Offline Mood: Discovering Sedit I answered you in my post above to save making excessive posts. Then realized you may not see it so here I am making another to point that out. "Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman ScienceSquirrel Super Moderator Posts: 1863 Registered: 18-6-2008 Location: Brittany Member Is Offline Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! Interestingly 2011 was the first year when the price of oil did not fall below$100 a barrel.
I predict that the first year when the price of oil never falls below $200 a barrel will come in a decade or so at most. Supply is going to be hard to increase and demand is growing inexorably even in what is a recesssion by anyone's standards. Mr. Wizard International Hazard Posts: 1037 Registered: 30-3-2003 Member Is Offline  Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel Interestingly 2011 was the first year when the price of oil did not fall below$100 a barrel. I predict that the first year when the price of oil never falls below \$200 a barrel will come in a decade or so at most. Supply is going to be hard to increase and demand is growing inexorably even in what is a recesssion by anyone's standards.

Supply and demand work both ways, there is currently an oversupply of US dollars being printed, which might account for the increase in the price of a barrel of oil, and nearly everything else. How does the price of oil compare when priced in gold or silver?

The amount of oil on the market is a variable that is or can be controlled by people interested in keeping their returns high. Trying to infer the price of oil going up is the harbinger for 'peak oil' is flawed.
ScienceSquirrel
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Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination!

We may not be at peak oil but we are heading that way.
Most of the easy reserves have been extracted or are heavily depleted.
In the last few decades nothing like the giant Saudi fields have been discovered or anything that can be extracted as cheaply and as easily.
Demand is going to rise over the next few years as more Indians, Chinese, South Americans and Africans take to the road and demand more fuel.
Suppose everyone on Earth reaches a low European standard of living, we will not try and imagine everyone reaching the levels of consumerism achieved by an average American.
Do you really believe that sufficent resources could be found to sustain this?
Sedit
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IRC I would like to further this discussion elsewhere and would like to take the time to start a thread in whimsy later tonight with timer permitting because the issue should be addressed that while moving out of NY would appear to be a solution keep in mind that as the world is expanding everywhere is becoming NY so to speak and that was just an analogy of the direction the world as a whole, and especially the USA, is taking.

The cost of living is increasing faster then job fares exponentially around the world and this is one of the reasons we are seeing a collapse of economy worldwide. It appears to be a fundamentally flawed system that needs an over haul else civil wars are destine to become the norm in many regions of the world. The USA is a baby that has grown to fast and become to big for its britches. A few hundred year old society has not seen the people rise up time and time again like much older areas of the world have seen and the US is destine for another Civil war at one point or another. Its not a matter of if its a matter of when and with the internet age coming to maturity the rapid flow of ideas is speeding this process along world wide so I would not expect the US to fair any better then other regions of the world have.

Knowledge is useless to useless people...

"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
DerAlte
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"Some of his philosphical analysis of the science / religion topic lacks depth...."

Rosco, old pal, I put that one in for you! Full marks for picking up on it!

Seriously, Marsh's site is full of interesting stuff apart from GW/AGW and well worth a visit from the thinking man (& woman, must be PC)...

Der Alte
Rosco Bodine
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Oh don't get me wrong I could comfortably share a draft with Marsh on any of the engineering related material where he has plenty of depth and honesty....
but there is a look into his soul revealed in the paper where he gives some analysis on Pope Benedict which lets me know Marsh only "gets it" to a point ....
a very high level no doubt ....but not quite "there". It always amazes me that
agnostics or atheists think that things like creation is somehow "time constrained" or time defined in some determinant sort of way of "proof" for
science or religion ....not seeming to grasp that a "lord of all" would be a
"time lord" also so the "instant" of "creation" is an "instant" that is an oxymoron in eternity. Never the less Marsh is almost "there" in glimpsing the majesty of
eternity as a "supercontinuum" wholly encompassing "time space" as a
"transient' event of divine speculation ....Clearly Marsh toes the scientific line
in his writings .....but I get the distinct impression he sees more than he says.
He seems to be more of an enthusiastic agnostic than a rabidly positive atheist.

Never mind evolution and creation ......explain magnetism .....start small
and work your way up to the more cosmic scale

Or are they the same ? Halfway there some humility is found.

[Edited on 2-12-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
Polverone
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Having closed the new global warming thread, I couldn't let the old one continue on its shaggy way without another pruning.

PGP Key and corresponding e-mail
Polverone
Now celebrating 14 years of madness