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Author: Subject: fluorine based pyrotechnic
Ral123
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[*] posted on 3-1-2012 at 08:11
fluorine based pyrotechnic


We all know or in my case imagine almost explosive thermite reactions like Al+CuO or lead oxides but how about fluorides. This compound for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MnF2 looks not too expensive and with pretty nice density. I guess the boiling point of AlF3 would make such compositions impractical for real thermite use.
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Adas
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[*] posted on 3-1-2012 at 08:38


I don't think this is a good idea at all. Fluorides are TOXIC! They kill almost everything they come in contact with. The vapors from the thermite... Oh, if I imagine that.. Don't even think about it. Suicide.



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Bot0nist
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[*] posted on 3-1-2012 at 08:40


Try reading through, and inquiring in this thread.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10249




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Ral123
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[*] posted on 3-1-2012 at 10:20


Even compared to cyanide? And may be KF, but AlF3?
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Adas
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[*] posted on 3-1-2012 at 10:49


Mate, you have no idea what AlF3 is! In your body it makes complex salts and makes a MESS at your neuric transmissions (I am sorry if I didn't use the right expression) even at microgram quantities (maybe less), if my information is right. I would be VERY careful in experimenting!



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Ral123
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[*] posted on 3-1-2012 at 11:11


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MgF2 In this article its said that MgF2 decomposes at 2260. Isnt elemental magnesium and fluorine supposed to make atleast 3000 degrees? Sometimes I get totaly confused.
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franklyn
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[*] posted on 3-1-2012 at 16:37


Stannous Fluoride ( Tin Difluoride ) and Magnesium would be interesting

SnF2 + Mg => MgF2 + Sn


www.memidex.com/snf2

.
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neptunium
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[*] posted on 3-1-2012 at 17:02


i would go with Al and Pb! but i `d do it in the Nevada desert!
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Mildronate
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 09:12


teflon and Mg
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 11:29


I believe it was in Henderson (NV) there was a military flare production facility in which a tragedy occurred with (I believe) 2+ deaths and numerous sever burn injuries from the standard Teflon/Mg mix back about 12 years ago. One of the problems when investigation from various sources was completed was the microscopic nature of the Teflon product and a spark from electrical activation. The aircraft flare in use was a Teflon/Mg intimate mixture in a sealing form of NC lacquer. MANY floropolymers when reaching the single digit micron level are unusually reactive with a metal fuel. Some warhead designs (see Craven 1991) utilize what commercially is called Vitron B (another commercial floropolymer) to shape RDX and the temperature of it's detonation if often higher than an aluminumized RDX. It's best to treat the Teflon/Mg mixture with the same caution one would exercise with "flash" type pyrotechnic. However, this IS a scenario of a very fine floropolymer.
Some very good source material is found through Ellern pp 416 parts VIII and IX & Faber's military Pyrotechnics (History & Devl 1919)




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neptunium
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[*] posted on 4-1-2012 at 20:55


hey i didnt try to make fun of the Henderson NV accident ! i was just pointing at a safe location to have fun at,....sorry
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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 05:10


As far as toxicity is concerned, fluorides are completely different from the other halides. Fluoride is insidiously toxic. It is not so bad as Adas states (in microgram quantities), but its effects indeed are nasty. They screw up all kinds of ion exchange processes in the body and lead to very painful events. Inhaling fluoride smoke or vapor is BAD, very BAD!

So, I strongly advice against making fluoride-based thermites. The smoke from these may give you some very painful moments and may even cause severe illness or death. Also think of neighbours.

Acute toxicity of fluorides is not as high as that of cyanides, but the long-term effects are much more harmful. If cyanide exposure ends and you were not killed by it, then recovery is fast and complete. With fluoride, the after-effects will be long-lasting.

[Edited on 5-1-12 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 5-1-2012 at 08:27


Thanks for further explanation, woelen :)



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[*] posted on 10-1-2012 at 16:19


Once I read about solid propellant with hi density. Oxidizer was HgO, reducing agent was U (or U+Al) and binder was of course Teflon.



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[*] posted on 12-1-2012 at 12:56


Most of the studies on depolymerization of PTFE are dealing with
heating a sample in vacuum or oxygen at lower then 1000°C.
I have yet have to read something about shock induced decomposition
characteristic of PTFE at several 1000°C in other words detonation of a sample by a HE charge.
Among the first main decomposition products is tetrafluoroethylene gas.
Anyone know if a HE charge could shock decompose a PTFE sample.






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