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Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
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Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent  | | Quote: | . . .
You believe it's impossible to do what you've described simply because that is the universally accepted view!
Yes, we should listen carefully to what is said by others but at the same time, nullius in verba!
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What are ya some sort of a commie pinko poofter, speak american you retarded spacca.
I was forced into this slur by the laws of the universe, itself an utterly meaning expression.
'johnny played guitar jenny played bass the name of the band was the human race, everbody tell me have you heard pop goes the world'
The probability approach to existence i find is the most profound and humbling, even for me, and i'm a fucking legend.
Chaos just means you've been up for too long or you have undiagnosed dementia or that you're a fucking legend.
Magic Happens
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Endimion17
International Hazard
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Registered: 17-7-2011
Location: shores of a solar sea
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| Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent | Look Sedit, just because a thing hasn't yet been done doesn't nececelery mean that it cannot be done!
You believe it's impossible to do what you've described simply because that is the universally accepted view!
Yes, we should listen carefully to what is said by others but at the same time, nullius in verba!
P
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I think you're on the verge (if not over the verge) of abusing Popper's principles.
Consider the relatively famous example of copper atoms. In order to say: "Copper atoms behave like that etc.", we should test every copper atom in the
universe.
Think about it.
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fledarmus
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Registered: 23-6-2011
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Free will does not imply absolute power - why should the presence if free will imply the ability to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen by using
your mind? It is enough to imply the ability to decide whether or not to flip a switch to pass a current through water, thus separating it into
hydrogen and oxygen.
And that fact that somebody would be able to read signals in our brains announcing that we had made a decision before we were able to communicate that
decision ourself does not necessarily imply a lack of free will, especially on a decision with so little consequence. If the same methodology could
show that a person would decide to report a co-worker for embezzling at some time before the person was even aware that his co-worker was embezzling,
then that would imply a lack of free will. Reading signals in our brains before we communicate a choice only implies a temporal distance between
making a decision and communicating that decision, not that the decision is predestined.
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Pulverulescent
National Hazard
Posts: 793
Registered: 31-1-2008
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Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!
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You all see that, girls --- Panache is casting veiled asparagus on my politics, gender identity and my mental (in)continence  and on top of that he wants me to speak some kind of pidgin English as well?
'Could be worse; he could've called me a 'godless, atheist heathen' 
Pinko poofter me fucking arse? 
When I get me gorgeous, delicate, jewelled hands on 'im he will be so 'all sore'!
P
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Pulverulescent
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Posts: 793
Registered: 31-1-2008
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Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!
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Ohhh my goodness, didn't I forgot about scratching his eyes out!
P
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Endimion17
International Hazard
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Mood: speeding through time at the rate of 1 second per second
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Is this the weird part of the SM fora? :O
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
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Mood: Manic Expressive
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| Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent | | Quote: | | . . . you by the power of your mind alone should be able to cause Water to separate into hydrogen and oxygen or the reverse of such prevent the two
from reacting by shear will. |
Look Sedit, just because a thing hasn't yet been done doesn't nececelery mean that it cannot be done!
You believe it's impossible to do what you've described simply because that is the universally accepted view!
Yes, we should listen carefully to what is said by others but at the same time, nullius in verba!
P
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I am all for altering my train of thought as evidence seems fit however all the evidence is pointing to a complete lack of free will. The only room I
see for freewill is if we live in an infinite universe and everyone is on there own "frequency" so to speak jumping lightyears in the future with
every millisecond that passes....
I chose the first option because as it stands current knowledge supports it much better.
| Quote: |
It is enough to imply the ability to decide whether or not to flip a switch to pass a current through water, thus separating it into hydrogen and
oxygen. |
What made you decide to pass the current though water? Sheesh I see it's going to get complicated attempting to explain this isn't is.
You eat chemicals, these chemicals are turned into other chemicals which affect your brain. Your brain turns these chemical signals into electrical
energy. Our current understanding is that these electrical signals are what cause our mussels to move. These mussels move flicking a switch.
This is the most simplistic means I could possibly put this right now. Every atom in the universe reacts as it should according to physical law.
Free will implies that we can alter this physical law to suit our wants. I do not see very much evidence to suggest this.
What I do see however is a very complex system of organic chemistry on a localized sphere that is so complex that the chemicals involved have have
become so advanced and complicated that they only "believe" the forms of energy they can sense directly such as vibrations with the skin and ears (as
well as the tongue picking up PH and other information), while the eyes and possibly a few glands in the brain detect electromagnetic radiation.
All this information goes to the brain where a majority of it is filtered out and the person looses the true meaning behind there actions
creating an almost fantasy like reality where they are the ones behind the wheel controlling everything around them when the reverse is really where
the truth lay.
Can you alter what has already been done?
When you do something or "chose" not to do something are you sure that the outcome was not predetermined? If so, how are you sure... please explain
your answer.
[Edited on 6-1-2012 by Sedit]
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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fledarmus
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Registered: 23-6-2011
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If there is no free will, then we are having this conversation because it was predetermined to occur, and there is therefore no point in continuing
it. No amount of discussion about free will can change anybody's opinion, because we don't have opinions, only predetermined responses.
If we are having this discussion and it is at all possible to change anyone's opinion, then we have free will and there is no point in continuing the
discussion - the act of debating free will proves that it exists. Cogito, ergo sum
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
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Mood: Manic Expressive
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See that's not at all true, if you change your opinion then that is predetermined. The act of debating it is in no way proof it exist. All it proves
is that there is a such thing as polar opposites.
Your environment, your upbringing, the words you have heard, the things you have seen... They have all lead you to believe you have freewill, the act
of debating it is merely the chemical processes of my and your brain telling our fingers to hit these keys. It is very complex but in no way magical.
I do not believe in magic only things that are a bit out of my comprehension zone.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Endimion17
International Hazard
Posts: 1468
Registered: 17-7-2011
Location: shores of a solar sea
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Mood: speeding through time at the rate of 1 second per second
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I think you all ignore the fact that it doesn't matter if we don't have free will, which is becoming more and more obvious as the years pass.
It truly doesn't matter.
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
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Mood: Manic Expressive
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I'm not ignoring it, it does not matter to me at all other then on an intellectual level... I'm just here to enjoy the ride and to learn as much as I
can before the ride stops.
Once the view of no free will is truly accepted in ones head the world starts to look like a totally different place where people in society function
as a whole instead of a single entity with the sole purpose of keeping the genetic line going and nothing else. After all this is DNAs primary goal as
a molecule even at its simplest of levels, self replication. Everything else in society from industrial revolutions to pushing one another to work and
perform various task, even down to us having this conversation right here is a side effect of DNAs "will" continue replicating and nothing
more.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Vogelzang
Banned
Posts: 662
Registered: 26-4-2008
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Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: |
Everything that occurs is the result of the atoms colliding, rebounding, and becoming entangled with one another, with no purpose or plan behind their
motions. (Compare this with the modern study of particle physics.) His theory differs from the earlier atomism of Democritus because he admits that
atoms do not always follow straight lines but their direction of motion may occasionally exhibit a 'swerve' (clinamen). This allowed him to avoid the
determinism implicit in the earlier atomism and to affirm free will.[8] (Compare this with the modern theory of quantum physics, which postulates a
non-deterministic random motion of fundamental particles.)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
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Mood: Manic Expressive
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It seems to me that this fellow figured he found a loop hole with random motion of particles so he could comfort himself into believing there
was freewill.
The motion has to be truly random for his theory to hold any water at all but odds are that its not random and is really just a result of complex
uncalculable forces he is unaware of.
It would literally take an act of god to convince me that free will exist at this point because its something I have spent well over a decade thinking
about. I was 15 when I first realized there was no freewill and I have tried and tried to comfort myself somehow like Epicurus did but logical
thinking always brings me back to the conclusion that its just a figment of our imagination.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Panache
International Hazard
Posts: 1290
Registered: 18-10-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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The minute you start using phrases like 'truly random' without defining them you're into that territory of philosophy steven hawking derided recently
(and quite rightly), symantics.
Truly random cannot be defined, otherwise it could not be truly random.
Its like that bit in the matrix where the traitor is eating the steak, he doesn't care if its not real, likewise with free will, greyer though, if we
are unable to confidently ascertain one way or the other, or even to postuate, without grand assumptions or better yet, corrections, it cannot matter
nor affect you in any manner that you can be conscious of. However you will not stop thinking about it.
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