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Neil
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GreenD
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Edimion your reductionist logic is deafening.
Read the article;
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1475491609...
Dilutions up to 17-24CH, which is well beyond the Avogadro limit of 1 molecule per mole solvent. Yet these still displayed results that the distilled
water could not.
Explain that?
Further more, how can you dismiss memory of water?
Just because nobody taught you anything like it before? Really man? Your kind of ignorance and defeatist attitude should be banned from
SM...
I'm giving you a scientific paper on a scientific subject that has yet to be completely dispelled.
I am not on here advocating for homeopathic medicine, I never have. I said don't fucking dismiss it because you don't think its right. Go back to the
1950's with that kind of diminutive thinking.
Neil, I'm not sure how serious you're taking your comic, but if that is really what you are thinking, then you can read the above as well. Again - I
am not advocating for homeopathic medicine, I am not saying that diluting every solution will give results as the paper suggests. I am merely pointing
out that there is something worth realizing here. Beyond that - yes I believe in complex systems, holistic mind sets, and some other "non-science"
ideologies like that.
The population has dealt with reductionism for the past 100-200 years and is now seeing the consequences. If you can't wrap your head around the
possibility of complexity in a natural system I'd say you're a detriment to the fore-goings of science and you should stay in your house and
discontinue communication to the general population.
thanks
/rage
[Edited on 28-1-2012 by GreenD]
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Endimion17
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That's almost the same thing as Benveniste did, and it was proven to be a false.
If you want to display extraordinary claim, you have to have an extraordinary evidence. You clearly don't understand that such claim is serious on the
order of: "I can drink liquid bromine and fart out helium for ona whole week".
You don't. Because you have no knowledge and it's getting more and more clear that you don't know what scientific method is.
And for god sake, you're linking to a HOMEOPATHY JOURNAL. Talking about bias, LOL!
Please don't embarass yourself anymore. Please. It's pathetic.
edit: Jesus, the more I dig, the more crap I find out about the authors.
[Edited on 28-1-2012 by Endimion17]
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GreenD
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Now you use circular logic; since the journal says homeopathy you won't acknowledge the credentials. http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=d4xh1gqc...
http://jap.physiology.org/content/9/3/481.short
http://jem.rupress.org/content/70/4/415.abstract
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022347663...
Nature Journal: http://scholar.googleusercontent.com/scholar?q=cache:Jt47YMG...
if the last one doesn't work you can look it up in NAture; Human basophil degranulation triggered by very
dilute antiserum against IgE
IT goes on and on.
[Edited on 28-1-2012 by GreenD]
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Fusionfire
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Ridiculous. What is homeopathy doing on a scientific forum?
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GreenD
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cause it's been shown by the scientific process.
oi this website is a bunch of conservative reductionists.
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Endimion17
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Trolling, Fusionfire. Trolling. The same thing it's doing ever since it laid its tentacles on the World Wide Web.
It's interesting how proponents of homeopathy scream so loudly about scientific sources when a handful of poor experiments show a blink of hope, and
cast an immense WALL OF SILENCE when the whole massive mountain of almost every natural science out there speaks against it. That's what I called a
fucking bias. 
Belon and Sainte-Laudy work for the homeopathy companies. At least one of them was helping Benveniste do his shoddy experiment in the nineties, and is
a homeopathy proponent.
I say - delete this thread or open threads about crystal power, pyramid power, astrology, dowsing, polywater, cold fusion, perpetuum mobile, etc.
Why should only one bullshit get its tentacles around SM? All of them or none of them, it's simple.
I'm not new to this. Poking crackpots is my hobby for almost ten years now.
Homeopathy is ridiculed among scientists, and everything crackpots do is wave hands screaming about "pathological skepticism" and
"conservative reductionism". I say "give me some nonbiased hard evidence or STFU".
Quote: Originally posted by GreenD  |
cause it's been shown by the scientific process.
oi this website is a bunch of conservative reductionists. |
Yeah, we're the Church of Conservativist Reductionism. Do you want to join us? You have to pass the entrance quest and repeat "homeopathy is BS" three
times.
[Edited on 28-1-2012 by Endimion17]
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Neil
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In same cases small concentrations are more efficacious then larger ones, such as things which may display a low toxicity but in small amounts may act
as hormones.
The cartoon?
My thinking? No not me, Them.
The only hair of the dog that bit you thing I believe in is a beer after a beer.
Just because a paper suggests results doesn't mean proves. in the bits of the paper I was able to see there were far to many things that were not
addressed and not controlled. I can show you a paper that proves autism and mercury are linked.. well it was finally rescinded but after how many
years?
Papers on cold fusion? Evidence of thermite in the twin towers? there are papers on everything but I rely on my own ability to examine facts before
forming an opinion.
In this case, anything diluted to nothing and then having an effect = bullshit. How do you erase or re-set water? Drinking rain water would cure
EVERYTHING if there was anything to homoeopathy as EVERYTHING at some point ends up in the ocean which evaporates and so on.
I do have an open mind but I try not to have an ignorant mind.
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Fusionfire
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I have medical doctor friends and have heard many stories of cancer patients who got diagnosed with cancer in the early stages and they refused proper
blind-tested treatments in favour of homeopathic "treatments".
A few years later they come back with terminal cancer.
Homeopathy is not only absurd it is also plain dangerous to the ignorant.
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Neil
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| Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17 |
I say - delete this thread or open threads about crystal power, pyramid power, astrology, dowsing, polywater, cold fusion, perpetuum mobile, etc
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This thread was about testing for MeOH... What is with all the calling for threads to be locked or closed. It is like the newbies want to censor the
crap outta this place. 
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by GreenD | Edimion your reductionist logic is deafening.
Read the article;
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1475491609...
Dilutions up to 17-24CH, which is well beyond the Avogadro limit of 1 molecule per mole solvent. Yet these still displayed results that the distilled
water could not.
Explain that?
Further more, how can you dismiss memory of water?
Just because nobody taught you anything like it before? Really man? Your kind of ignorance and defeatist attitude should be banned from
SM...
I'm giving you a scientific paper on a scientific subject that has yet to be completely dispelled.
I am not on here advocating for homeopathic medicine, I never have. I said don't fucking dismiss it because you don't think its right. Go back to the
1950's with that kind of diminutive thinking.
Neil, I'm not sure how serious you're taking your comic, but if that is really what you are thinking, then you can read the above as well. Again - I
am not advocating for homeopathic medicine, I am not saying that diluting every solution will give results as the paper suggests. I am merely pointing
out that there is something worth realizing here. Beyond that - yes I believe in complex systems, holistic mind sets, and some other "non-science"
ideologies like that.
The population has dealt with reductionism for the past 100-200 years and is now seeing the consequences. If you can't wrap your head around the
possibility of complexity in a natural system I'd say you're a detriment to the fore-goings of science and you should stay in your house and
discontinue communication to the general population.
thanks
/rage
[Edited on 28-1-2012 by GreenD] |
So you support vitalism. If you do, then don't do chemistry (technically biochemistry) because it is all about how life works in a molecular level and
what triggers certain things in cells. If you believe that magically casting a spell on H2O, diluted so there is not even a single molecule left, can
magically make the water remember what's in it before, you shouldn't be doing any chemistry. If you think that these "memories" somehow kill bacteria
and viruses (which are made of molecules) with just a memory or a certain pattern in water, then you shouldn't be doing any science at all. There's no
complex mindsets involved, it's just not possible, unless we ditch hundreds of years worth of science. Regarding the paper, a few suggestions of data
cannot disprove hundreds of years of research.
[Edited on 29-1-2012 by weiming1998]
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Panache
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Firstly if someone has the access could you please upload the fulltxt of the article liked above, it gives a simple permanganate test that if
negative is proof negative but if positive, may be negative or positive, it then goes into a more rigorous treatment of a positive sample to ascertain
its true status.
Secondly regarding homeopathy, water memory has been sincerely and earnestly investigated by some uk researchers, awhile back i linked the address of
the most comprehensive water site maintained by the aformentioned researchers, search for panache, in misc, you'll find it. No memory effects or
affects were able to be shown, the research is very clear and convincing.
Thirdly, did you hear about the great irish drought? Well all the top irish scientists came together in order to solve the impending water shortage,
and after weeks of intensive workshopping, to the great relief of the nation they found a solution, they would immediately begin diluting their water
in order to make it last out the drought. (i made that joke up when i was ten years old).
And lastly my only experience with homeopathy was when a collegue referred someone to me when i was selling some glass. Turns out this nutter was
selling into the homeopathic market, he proceeded to tell me he sold 'heavy water', as in dueterated, that he distilled himself from tapwater. When i
raised an eyebrow and crossexamined his or anyones ability to acheive this via distillation, he nodded reassuringly and condescendingly and said 'it
can be done'. I'm sure he tells his customers this should a query come in. However it is a meangingless statement and not an answer to the question.
He is a crook, and the customers of his are very willing victims, it angers me so much when with this great wealth and affluence we have in the west
the best we can come up with is to buy into this crap.
People are idiots.
Take your heavy memory water, your collodial silver, and try and treat some dysentery in equitorial guinea and see how useful you are.
[Edited on 29-1-2012 by Panache]
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | | if you extend the dose-response measurements down below conventional pharmacological concentrations into the homeopathic range of doses, guess what?
They monotonically trend to negliglible, or less, as Feynman used to say. There are no magical maxima down there in the range of homeopathic doses.
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I agree. The argument about monotonic response was what was wrong. It's clear that a lot of claims about
homeopathy are in the quackery and fraud category. I'm not convinced that everything in the minds of practitioners is false, though. I've never seen
even a trace of theory that strikes me as true, much less proven.
Mind you, I've never taken a homeopathic medicine ever. To each his own.
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by Neil | | Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17 |
I say - delete this thread or open threads about crystal power, pyramid power, astrology, dowsing, polywater, cold fusion, perpetuum mobile, etc
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This thread was about testing for MeOH... What is with all the calling for threads to be locked or closed. It is like the newbies want to censor the
crap outta this place.
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A conterquestion. What's with all the newbies wanting to turn SM to a woo woo forum?
All I've said is - either turn everything bat-crap crazy (and drop the science from the Sciencemadness name), or don't turn anything
at all. That's it.
This forum was constructed with science in mind, right? Then science it is. You don't see people opening threads about 18th century poems, do you?
I don't understand you. Anyone with the slightest interest in scientific rigor, truth, knowledge about pseudoscience and sense of ethics feels the
same about homeopathy.
It's a scam. A quackery. A pseudoscience.
If logic, empiric evidence from chemistry and biology doesn't ring you a bell (which should, because that's the hardest evidence), why do you think
the scientific and skeptic community is all alarmed by this "practice"? They're all paid by "lobbies"? Come on, man. Wake up.
The whole thing is so ridiculed that there's a whole foundation out there, offering million USA dollars (maybe even more, it was 1 million when it
started) if anyone can prove "woo woo things" true. No one ever made it.
Have you even looked at the video I've posted? If not, go and take a look.
There's even a campaign about quackery awareness. Each October 23rd (Mole Day, reffering to the limit of dillution) people around the world chug tons
of homeopathic pills and nothing happens. Because it's sugar and it doesn't work.
In the days of intensive Web communication, it has become a normative for a scientist and anyone thinking rationally to be acquainted with this BS.
For god sake, even comics are being drawn.
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Neil
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Oh NOES ! Someone dissented with Endi!
I'd run and hide from your expert angst but frankly your being silly.
Try to re-read, or just read if you haven't read, my posts. Show me where I supported homoeopathy?
I pointed out that we were off topic and that shouting for things to get closed up is juvenile and you attack? Really?
How about people stick to the topic which was not 'does 30x diluted balderdash cure my runs' or 'do ya think diluting Endi 30 times would make him
more palatable' but rather 'How can I test for methanol in a fast easy way'
Stop trying to fight everyone.
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by Neil | Oh NOES! Someone dissented with Endi!
I'd run and hide from your expert angst but frankly your being silly.
Try to re-read, or just read if you haven't read, my posts. Show me where I supported homoeopathy?
I pointed out that we were off topic and that shouting for things to get closed up is juvenile and you attack? Really?
How about people stick to the topic which was not 'does 30x diluted balderdash cure my runs' or 'do ya think diluting Endi 30 times would make him
more palatable' but rather 'How can I test for methanol in a fast easy way'
Stop trying to fight everyone. |
Didn't everyone agree on the boric acid test?
But the boric acid test won't work if the alcohol contains water! The person who originally posted this needs to tell us whether the alcohol is
anhydrous or not.
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bahamuth
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| Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 |
Didn't everyone agree on the boric acid test?
But the boric acid test won't work if the alcohol contains water! The person who originally posted this needs to tell us whether the alcohol is
anhydrous or not.
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The boric acid won't work, because what the boric acid does is forming tri esters with alcohols, that is three alcohols bind to the borate. If
say there was 30% methanol in ones ethanol one would get a mixed ester with one methyl group and two ethyl groups. So the most likely outcome is that
one will make a mixed ester and as such the test would be inconclusive. No clear green flame.. Additionally I don't think 1% of a green flame in 99%
yellow flame would be visible to the human eye..
Anyways whats wrong with the test linked to above, where hydroiodic acid reacts with the alcohols and are distilled over into triethylamine with a
white precipitate a positive for methanol.
Granted the reagents aren't over counter but still...
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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weiming1998
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What about copper sulfate? That is soluble in methanol but insoluble in ethanol. But again, copper sulfate is very soluble in water, so it won't work
in non-anhydrous alcohols.
Distillation of the alcohol and collecting the first few drops to mix with copper sulfate, then
light on fire seems to be a viable route, as methanol boils at 64 degrees celsius, but ethanol boils at 78. If there is any methanol in it at all, the
flame should be green.
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rstar
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Is CuSO4 soluble in MeOH as much as it is in Water ?
"A tidy laboratory means a lazy chemist "
- Jöns Jacob Berzelius
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weiming1998
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No, CuSO4 is more soluble in H2O than MeOH. If your alcohol contains water, then distil it, collect the first few drops, add copper sulfate and light
on fire. If it contained any significant amount of MeOH the flame will be green. If your alcohol contains so much water it is hard to light on fire, I
suggest you distil a few times.
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by Neil | Oh NOES! Someone dissented with Endi!
I'd run and hide from your expert angst but frankly your being silly.
Try to re-read, or just read if you haven't read, my posts. Show me where I supported homoeopathy?
I pointed out that we were off topic and that shouting for things to get closed up is juvenile and you attack? Really?
How about people stick to the topic which was not 'does 30x diluted balderdash cure my runs' or 'do ya think diluting Endi 30 times would make him
more palatable' but rather 'How can I test for methanol in a fast easy way'
Stop trying to fight everyone. |
By moaning about "newbies trying to censor everything" you're implying that you have nothing against homeopathy. The "let it be" policy. Well, I
disagree.
I too think we should be discussing methanol detection (BTW, it does work if there's some water in it, but what would a n00b like me possibly know
about these things, right?), but if there are people promoting homeopathy on a scientific forum, it's our moral duty to react. Being passive solves
nothing because all you'll get is a thread with quackery being mentioned few times like it's a normal thing. Do you want SM to have such flavor? Trust
me, these things are like weed. If you don't pluck it out while it's scarce, it fucks up your garden.
Trying to fight everyone? Whoa, talking about selective memory by a passive forumer.
So, on topic, it is.
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth | The boric acid won't work, because what the boric acid does is forming tri esters with alcohols, that is three alcohols bind to the borate. If
say there was 30% methanol in ones ethanol one would get a mixed ester with one methyl group and two ethyl groups. So the most likely outcome is that
one will make a mixed ester and as such the test would be inconclusive. No clear green flame.. Additionally I don't think 1% of a green flame in 99%
yellow flame would be visible to the human eye..
Anyways whats wrong with the test linked to above, where hydroiodic acid reacts with the alcohols and are distilled over into triethylamine with a
white precipitate a positive for methanol.
Granted the reagents aren't over counter but still... |
Why would it be inconclusive? Green color appears with methanol only, if the amount of boric acid is small enough. With ton of boric
acid, green flame will appear with ethanol, too, although substantially weaker.
The catch is to put a small amount of boric acid so that it doesn't color the ethanol flame.
If there's appreciable amount of methanol in the mixture, the flame will be at least partially green around the edges. The more methanol there is, the
greener the flame becomes.
I did this experiment several times. Actually, the first time I saw it was in a pharmacy, as a kid, when a pharmacist showed me the difference between
pure ethanol (water solution, but pure) and denaturated alcohol. The first flame was negative, and the second one wasn't completely green, but there
were green edges around it.
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watson.fawkes
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Demonstrate,
by quoting user 'rstar' who is the original poster on this thread, where he "promoted" homeopathy. Oh wait, that's impossible. He's only used the word
once in the thread, at the beginning. He didn't refer to it indirectly thereafter, either. | Quote: Originally posted by rstar | | I've got a alcohol solution (if u know about it then its a homeopathic medicine, so-called mother tincture) |
How is this promotion? He only mentioned what he was working on. He didn't ask you to work on it. He didn't ask you to believe it.
He didn't make any claims of efficacy.
I will be frank. Your exhibition of fundamentalism disgusts me. It disgusts as much as any of the other fundamentalisms that flare up here from time
to time, but it Christian fundamentalism, atheist fundamentalism, the various fundamentalisms of politics, and a few other. In your rhetoric, you are
promoting conventional behavior, advocating a social reaction against a particular avenue of unconventional exploration that you don't approve of.
This combination of rhetoric and advocacy is the essence of politics, the polity in question here being the membership of this board.
You were the one picking a fight here. It started with this post of yours, the first to go off-topic. It's nothing but acting the bully, jabbing at
someone not looking to posit any claim of intersubjective truth.
What disgusts me about your behavior, very specifically, is that seeks to choke off imagination. Science has had far more dead ends than productive
research results. It has always been so. It will continue to be so. If someone wants to spend their time on something on you consider unproductive,
that's their business, not yours. Don't join them.
When you seek to exercise political power through rhetoric to squish someone else, you are both inhibiting scientific progress and asking others to go
down the road toward totalitarianism, both of which disgust me.
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AJKOER
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Here is a scheme designed to test for even low dosage of methyl alcohol. Those with any background in bio-chemistry or toxicology please comment.
1. Add HBr/H2SO4 to the solution in question (the "target solution") and to a constructed solution with only ethanol in the appropriate percentage,
hereafter referred to as the "ethanol" or "standard solution". The goal is to form Methyl bromide (assuming there is any Methanol) as it is a
commercial pesticide used against insects, termites, rodents, weeds, nematodes, and even soil-borne diseases.
Caution see link:
"Methyl bromide, labeled with a DANGER signal word, is an extremely toxic vapor. In humans, methyl bromide is readily absorbed through the lungs. Most
problems occur as a result of inhalation. About 1,000 human poisoning incidents caused by methyl bromide exposure have been documented, with effects
ranging from skin and eye irritation to death. Most fatalities and injuries occurred when methyl bromide was used as a fumigant.
Inhalation of 1,600 ppm for 10-20 hours, or 7,900 ppm for 1.5 hours is lethal to humans (8). The lowest inhalation level found to cause toxicity in
humans is 35 ppm in air."
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/haloxyfop-meth...
2. Apply a spray with safety percautions of both solutions to 3O samples of say 30 ants (60 test populations in total). I could also select slides of
an appropriate microbe in place of ants. Note, the ants should not be collected from an area that undergoes pesticide treatment as say ants could be
more resistant/robust species.
3. Wait and record the # of surviving ants in the 60 samples.
4. Perform an Analysis of Variance (or a dummy variable regression with repeated measurements, or best Probit Analysis actually invented to analyze
pesticides, see details at http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~efc/classes/biol710/probit/ProbitAn...) to test any statistical significant. Unless you use Probit analysis, you will
need to transform the data to comply with the normal population model assumption.
One, if so inclined, could expand the experimental design to three test populations, the target, ethanol only, and one constructed with an guess
estimate of the actual methanol contamination (this would also confirm that the testing process can detect methanol). Also, one could add a
concentrated target test sample.
The advantage of this approach is that it statistically confirms the presence of methanol via one of its recognized more toxic cousins, and so
directly measures a mortality effect ascribed to be in ppm. The short fall of this test process (other than unlikely random error) is that it only
measures toxicological differences between Ethyl and Methyl bromide, where I have made an assumption that there is a measurable difference
(Occupational Safety and Health Administration permissible exposure limit (PEL) for ethyl bromide is 200 ppm vs. 20 ppm for Methyl Bromide).
These tests should be performed on behalf of the distributor of say product to ensure product quality/safety.
[Edited on 29-1-2012 by AJKOER]
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes | Demonstrate, by quoting user 'rstar' who is the original poster on this thread, where he "promoted" homeopathy. Oh wait, that's impossible. He's only
used the word once in the thread, at the beginning. He didn't refer to it indirectly thereafter, either. | Quote: Originally posted by rstar | | I've got a alcohol solution (if u know about it then its a homeopathic medicine, so-called mother tincture) |
How is this promotion? He only mentioned what he was working on. He didn't ask you to work on it. He didn't ask you to believe it.
He didn't make any claims of efficacy.
I will be frank. Your exhibition of fundamentalism disgusts me. It disgusts as much as any of the other fundamentalisms that flare up here from time
to time, but it Christian fundamentalism, atheist fundamentalism, the various fundamentalisms of politics, and a few other. In your rhetoric, you are
promoting conventional behavior, advocating a social reaction against a particular avenue of unconventional exploration that you don't approve of.
This combination of rhetoric and advocacy is the essence of politics, the polity in question here being the membership of this board.
You were the one picking a fight here. It started with this post of yours, the first to go off-topic. It's nothing but acting the bully, jabbing at
someone not looking to posit any claim of intersubjective truth.
What disgusts me about your behavior, very specifically, is that seeks to choke off imagination. Science has had far more dead ends than productive
research results. It has always been so. It will continue to be so. If someone wants to spend their time on something on you consider unproductive,
that's their business, not yours. Don't join them.
When you seek to exercise political power through rhetoric to squish someone else, you are both inhibiting scientific progress and asking others to go
down the road toward totalitarianism, both of which disgust me. |
Why do you have issues with someone pointing out that calling homeopathic holy water "medicine" is ridiculous? What's your problem, why does it bother
you? If some people here weren't so ignorant, nobody would make a fuss about it. I was expecting to hear something like: "Yeah, I know those aren't
medications, my bad."
But instead we get to see who'd a nutter, and who isn't. And you dare to say I'm the bad guy?
Fundamentalism? You know who screams "Fundamentalism!" every time similarly nasty things are pointed out? People who are extremely politically correct
to the point of having no original opinion.
This is not fundamentalism, for god sake.
What imagination?! What's to be imaginative about crackpots and charlatans sucking the money from the gullible and terminally ill?
Let me ask you - where's your limit? Pyramid power? Flat Earth? 6000 years old Earth?
"It might be truth, let's just be openminded"?
Do you have any rigor, or you're just cruising through the informations without being selective in any way?
Dude, it's like saying "let's keep that astrology/hollow Earth/creationism thread on the astronomy/geology/biology forum just to keep an open mind".
Hell, no.
Sorry, you have no idea what fundamentalism is and you're clearly not aware of what homeopathy is. There's no difference between it and palm reading.
It's in the same waste bin of the human mind.
So will we please stop with argumentum ad nauseam and argumentum ad hominem and deal with methanol detection? If you have problems with people
pointing out bullshit, keep it for yourself and don't attack them.
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