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Author: Subject: High-order flash powder?
Metacelsus
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[*] posted on 2-1-2013 at 14:38
High-order flash powder?


Seeing as I couldn't find any posts dealing with this subject, or any general question threads, I have decided to post this here. Please feel free to contact me if this thread should be somewhere else.

Anyway, I've been thinking about some flash powders which are impact sensitive, the best example of which is the "Chinese firecracker" mixture KClO3 + S + Al. I would think that, if initiated in large enough quantities by a strong enough blasting cap, a self-propagating shockwave could form because of the impact sensitivity. Does anyone have any experience of or knowledge on this?
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hyfalcon
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[*] posted on 2-1-2013 at 17:57


Mix chlorate an sulfur together only if you wan to loose a hand or worse.

That mixture has a tendency to self detonate the longer it is stored.

[Edited on 3-1-2013 by hyfalcon]
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[*] posted on 2-1-2013 at 18:31


I am not planning to make this; I am just wondering if it is theoretically possible.
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[*] posted on 3-1-2013 at 03:25


In the mixture range that functions in a salute ignited by flame, no.



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[*] posted on 3-1-2013 at 05:07


KClO3 itself can detonate, so yes it works. The finer the particles, the faster will be the detonation.
Detonation will also occur after some time if ignited by a flame, you don´t need a blasting cap.
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[*] posted on 3-1-2013 at 20:27


http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=%2F#/watch?v=GcP...

Check out this video . Its extremely powerful flash powder but it's components are still unknown what could be its components. Which oxidizer and which fuel is present in it




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[*] posted on 4-1-2013 at 00:41


To me, there is little doubt that some mixtures used in pyrotechnics can undergo a DDT when being used in sufficient amounts. If involving a blasting cap, several mixtures probably could be approaching lower end of high explosives.

Most flash powders are impact sensitive. It's just the degree to which it is sensitive that depends on composition.

I've never understood these "hyper flash" compositions. They really serve no practical purpose other than making people think they're cool. There are a few applications that require more sensitive compositions, but usually dark report mix does the trick.
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[*] posted on 4-1-2013 at 09:44


Do you think that few grams of dark aluminium/permanganete/little sulfur or dark aluminium/chlorate can make few grams of RDX go high order reliably if they are confined in thin walled hard steel case. The part with the flash can be with additional wall thickness. I know dextrinated azide is more safe and way more reliable, but do you think the high end flashes can be used to make reliable NPED(not talking about safety, I know it's not worth it)?
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[*] posted on 4-1-2013 at 09:55


Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
High-order flash powder?

This is not a new question. There was another thread somewhere in this forum about the issue. As I remember it, the question was never conclusively resolved. Evidence was presented, and the general consensus seemed to be that, in some instances, its behaviour was somewhere between a deflagration and detonation. Generally, flash powder is not considered a high explosive, though the deflagration can still be very fast (supposedly up to 1400-2000 m/sec).

I am very sure you will not be able to detonate flashpowder with an ordinary little detonator. The flashpowder would just be dispersed without even necessarily deflagrating. Flashpowder is generally not impact sensitive (although it can be dangerously friction sensitive!).

[Edited on 4-1-2013 by AndersHoveland]




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Metacelsus
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[*] posted on 4-1-2013 at 15:35


I found the thread you mentioned.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14675
It answered my questions. Thanks!
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[*] posted on 6-1-2013 at 04:33


by high order, if im not wrong theres no international limit in between low explosive and high explosive, tho i myself define it as at 5000 m/s
dornier335a stated that he made some high explosive flashpowder, obviously stronger than the usual flashpowder, dont know if he tested that it went past a certain VoD..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcPedD_A0BU

but about using flashpowder to detonate secondaries, i have set off ammonal (AN, german dark Al, sugar powder and Fe2O3) with a small firecracker (Fenix FP3 ~3-4g flashpowder)
and.. pretty much didnt sound like just a little firecracker, thats for sure.. also the crater was formed as the charge, it was a small crater, about 40 cm around leaves and grass was missing, and in the center it went down in a sort of cone shape about 10 cm down.

i expected to see the smoke being abit brown (NO2) but it was purely white, not sure if it was a full det. tho, but there was no smell of NO2

but initiating ammonal with flashpowder is definately possible.. dont know about RDX




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[*] posted on 6-1-2013 at 04:47


I think that dornier335a dude is working with extremly fine, fresh Mg without oxide layer.

However, this wont store for long without loosing it's extra power.


Quote:

but about using flashpowder to detonate secondaries, i have set off ammonal (AN, german dark Al, sugar powder and Fe2O3) with a small firecracker (Fenix FP3 ~3-4g flashpowder) and.. pretty much didnt sound like just a little firecracker, thats for sure.. also the crater was formed as the charge, it was a small crater, about 40 cm around leaves and grass was missing, and in the center it went down in a sort of cone shape about 10 cm down.



Really?
This rather sounds like kewl stuff.
Do you have some Video?

I had some FP3 a few years ago, they where very good, but obviously with cheap chinese FP. I think they are not manufactured any more, or with less FP nowadays.

If they can detonate AN, It should be possible to do it better with high quality flashpowder.

And furthermore, if they can do the trick with AN, they can initiate something like PETN or RDX with ease!
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[*] posted on 25-5-2013 at 17:27


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
High-order flash powder?

This is not a new question. There was another thread somewhere in this forum about the issue. As I remember it, the question was never conclusively resolved. Evidence was presented, and the general consensus seemed to be that, in some instances, its behaviour was somewhere between a deflagration and detonation. Generally, flash powder is not considered a high explosive, though the deflagration can still be very fast (supposedly up to 1400-2000 m/sec).

I am very sure you will not be able to detonate flashpowder with an ordinary little detonator. The flashpowder would just be dispersed without even necessarily deflagrating. Flashpowder is generally not impact sensitive (although it can be dangerously friction sensitive!).

[Edited on 4-1-2013 by AndersHoveland]



I tell you what you do then. Mix 70/30 KClO4/dark Al then shoot it with a .22 and tell me if that's a detonation or not. I can tell you first hand dark flash IS impact sensitive.

[Edited on 26-5-2013 by hyfalcon]
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[*] posted on 25-5-2013 at 19:46


I have successfully used about 10g of flash (KClO4/Al) to initiate about 5g of ETN which than initiated about 50g of amm. picrate. I'm going to test with other secondaries in the third stage.
ETN is sensitive enough to be used in an intermediary stage, RDX could be more difficult. I wouldn't waste my hardly synthesized RDX in this manner.
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[*] posted on 26-5-2013 at 00:01


According to my tests, high quality flash powder can go high order. The best mixture I've tried so far is magnesium and sodium nitrate with a small amount of red P. The particle size is below 1 µm. And its detonation pressure is still nowhere near as high as standard high explosives'.

Boomboom314159 showed that flash powder (KClO4/Al) can be used to detonate ammonal, but it won't go high order. He also tested fuse ignited vs. detonator initiated flash powder, and found no difference at all.
The impact sensitivity of some flash powders doesn't matter because most of the combustion process takes place too far away from the reaction front to sustain a shock wave. The shock wave from a detonator can ignite flash powder but that doesn't mean the whole charge will detonate.
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[*] posted on 26-5-2013 at 00:18


I think a good compromise is a good(lets say 30g) booster like cast ETN and around it 60g flash. That way the average speed of the charge will be like 5000+m/s and it will have high energy and storage stability.
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[*] posted on 29-5-2013 at 07:36


A mixture of erythritol, sodium dichromate, and red phosphorus, if finely-ground, well-mixed, and bone-dry, gives an incredibly impressive bang, especially when confined.

You've got transient hypophospite being formed from the phosphorus oxides and water, which can reduce the Cr2O3 to CrO, in addition to all the oxidation provided by the dichromate and chromate decomposition.

I don't have enough dichromate and phosphorus on hand to determine the ideal mixture. Anyone want to take a crack at this?
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[*] posted on 29-5-2013 at 08:14


And how about Tetryl and Al. I think it will be more high order, and safer :D
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[*] posted on 29-5-2013 at 09:19


Why sodium dichromate? Wouldn't other oxidizers with more oxygen and less metal perform better?

I have seen flash powder based on KClO4, pentaerythritol and Al (73/18/9). It didn't even burn unconfined but exploded violently when confined.
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[*] posted on 29-5-2013 at 11:52


It's the instability of metal-based oxidizers that make them so powerful. When they go, they go FAST and in powdered form the flame front gets insane.

I tried the same mix, with sodium permanganate this time, and the results were equally impressive.

Of course, KClO4/magnesium powder overall dwarfs most other compositions.

I also had a pretty impressive result with potassium bromate and iron sulfide from lithium batteries. Though you need to be careful with that one; it's EXTREMELY sensitive.
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[*] posted on 29-5-2013 at 20:57


I have wanted to give AN/KMnO4 more sensitivity tests, but the initial attempts to detonate it with a .223 was mostly a failure so I haven't rushed back into it.

I'm currently milling some Al down to powder. I'm going to give AN/permanganate/al a shot.

I think AN/permanganate should be fairly impact sensitive, as ammonium permanganate should form which to my knowledge is extremely impact sensitive. Perhaps it needs to sit longer than I was willing to wait.

Adding Al powder should do the trick
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[*] posted on 30-5-2013 at 15:20


Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
It's the instability of metal-based oxidizers that make them so powerful. When they go, they go FAST and in powdered form the flame front gets insane.

I tried the same mix, with sodium permanganate this time, and the results were equally impressive.

Of course, KClO4/magnesium powder overall dwarfs most other compositions.

I also had a pretty impressive result with potassium bromate and iron sulfide from lithium batteries. Though you need to be careful with that one; it's EXTREMELY sensitive.


CuO + MgAl (325 mesh) 1:1 by volume can and will go loudly bang if heated till red hot glowing
the same with anhydrous CuSO4 + MgAl

but i must say of what ive heard etn is 6 times louder than any flashpowder you would be able to make.. ok make it 3 times louder than CuSO4 + MgAl, which is extremely loud and not needing confinement




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[*] posted on 30-5-2013 at 15:23


Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
A mixture of erythritol, sodium dichromate, and red phosphorus, if finely-ground, well-mixed, and bone-dry, gives an incredibly impressive bang, especially when confined.

You've got transient hypophospite being formed from the phosphorus oxides and water, which can reduce the Cr2O3 to CrO, in addition to all the oxidation provided by the dichromate and chromate decomposition.

I don't have enough dichromate and phosphorus on hand to determine the ideal mixture. Anyone want to take a crack at this?


i have a very strong solution of Na2Cr2O7 with alot of NaCl contamination, i have access to pure red phosphorus and erythritol.. but you mean as just the simple sugar.. right?

i would like to try this really.. but could you give anything near a hint.. or should i just start out with 1:1:1 by volume?
and do you know anything about sensitivity etc.?
aluminium could be added to this mixture to top it off with some thermite like reaction (well it all goes pretty fast in these kinds of things anyhow)

tell me if you want it compared to a specific flash composition.. should be do-able




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[*] posted on 30-5-2013 at 22:44


Assuming decomposition into CrO, Na2O, P4O10, CO2 and H2O, one stoichiometric mixture would be 84% Na2Cr2O7, 9% C4H10O4 and 7% P.
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[*] posted on 1-6-2013 at 05:53


Quote: Originally posted by Dornier 335A  
Assuming decomposition into CrO, Na2O, P4O10, CO2 and H2O, one stoichiometric mixture would be 84% Na2Cr2O7, 9% C4H10O4 and 7% P.


Wouldn't some of those sodium and phosphorus oxides be converted to the salt by contact with water vapor from the combustion of erythritol?
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