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Author: Subject: Looking over the border: EU-Regulations
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[*] posted on 19-3-2015 at 14:47


In spite of it being quite old two of my former suppliers have recently changed policy and wont sell these chemicals to individuals anymore citing this EU regulation.
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[*] posted on 20-3-2015 at 09:16


As I wrote, it depends on the supplier. They probably stopped selling it, because they don't want liability issues.



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[*] posted on 20-3-2015 at 17:30


Indeed, DCM is still available on the shelf in paint stripper and other European suppliers are still selling it. It's just the coincidence of two suppliers near to me doing this within 2 months of each other gave me cause to think that something was afoot woelen.
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[*] posted on 22-3-2015 at 20:15


Yes it's new and very strict in Europe. I have a business partner in London complaining about lots of new regulations.
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[*] posted on 28-3-2015 at 09:32


As an enthusiastic UK-based chemist (both in terms of hobby and profession), I must admit that I am very annoyed at this oppressive EU Nanny Statism. The EU seems to ban anything that gives us pleasure. I mean, toluene is pretty much a very useful laboratory staple, in terms of its solvent properties (both for organics and inorganics like sulphur), and as a starting material for numerous aromatic compounds.

I rely heavily on toluene and other common organics for my natural product extractions.

We need to use our vote to leave the EU (which is, for all intents and purposes, an unelected and unaccountable dictatorship) at the soonest possible opportunity. Are we to sit back and watch our freedoms being eroded away?

PS: although I have only just signed up (I thought I had to give a piece of my mind on these oppressive EU bans and restrictions), I have been following this forum for quite some time. :P Any other UK-based amateur chemists, please introduce yourself.




[Edited on 28-3-2015 by Chem Rage]
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[*] posted on 28-3-2015 at 13:54


Hi Chem Rage.

I agree with your sentiments.

I left the UK for Spain 10 years ago, entirely due to the Weather.

Spain seems to have some way of Complying with EU regulations, yet ignores them completely at the same time.

Last week i went into a corner shop and bought two litres of 98% H2SO4 and a kilo of NaOH, and 18 cans of beer all for about €10.

Passing by the bins a month back i was astonished to see a discarded 50 litre barrel with the label '58% Nitric Acid' on it.

Oh. It also said 'Agricultural use only' !




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[*] posted on 29-3-2015 at 10:27


Quote: Originally posted by aga  

It also said 'Agricultural use only' !


That'll stop them! :D




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[*] posted on 16-6-2015 at 03:37


In Hungary you can still bus 95% H2SO2,35% H2O2,53% HNO3, 100% acetone,97% KNO3,100% AN without any question.And its still in the EU.
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[*] posted on 27-2-2016 at 07:07


The grace period will end 02. March 2016 for use, possession, buying of Annex I chemicals with higher concentration and it seems that governments do not see the need for permits for private people.

Additionally there is an other issue which will concern people which are making gum-bichromate prints commercially:
http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes/gum-bichr...

Bj68
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[*] posted on 1-3-2016 at 21:26


in regards of chlorates and perchlorates -- if you took a bag with a 601g rock and filled 400g potassium chlorate into it, would they really consider the rock to be part of the bags mixture or would they have to look at particle size difference etc? because there seems to be nothing mentioned of particle size contrasts



~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 3-3-2016 at 04:18


Some pyrotechnic suppliers avoided US magnesium powder rules by shipping a mixture of 400 mesh powder and turnings, which could be trivially separated using a course sieve. In this case I think it worked around specific wording of a dust percentage and I think it was a shipping requirement not a possession or use requirement.

In the case of perchlorates, and with EU law which has a reputation of hinging less on technicalities than US law I'd think a rock definitely isn't going to cut it. The only loophole I can see in UK law that might work is a mixture of oxidisers, but that's not so useful in pyrotechnics. You could register as a business, but you may find yourself needing to jump through a lot more hoops to cope with all the extra rules. You can dissolve what you have in water and store it in bottles but if it ever gets to a judge it will be pointed out that any reasonable use is going to involve drying it out to the pure compound first, in the same way that any reasonable use of the powder with a rock in is going to involve taking out the rock.

Fortunately we have a licencing system here so buying and using oxidisers stronger than nitrates isn't closed to me.

There are also exemptions that are not well explained for uses of some compounds in high concentrations.
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[*] posted on 5-3-2016 at 00:05


smaller rocks then, aha.
potassium perchlorate and potassium nitrate in 40 60 ratio could be used, actually..
for fertilizing your lawn -- that is!
i would say if we had to go for metal powder and turnings mixup, then it would be really that difficult to get hold of iron shavings from saws, it would have great density, and that would mean it would be more compact and much cheaper than using magnesium turnings, supposing the mixture is in weight and not volume proportions

i got to think about perchloric acid, it doesnt seem to be really regulated??




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 5-3-2016 at 09:31


Perchloric acid is not regulated, but for pyrotechnic purposes (or terrorist purposes if we think like the people who made these laws) it is not interesting, because it is MUCH more expensive than KClO4. Expect to pay appr. EUR 70 for a liter of 60...70 % HClO4. Making KClO4 from this is possible, but the cost of the KClO4 would come close to EUR 100 per kilo and then it is not interesting at all anymore.

Perchloric acid is interesting though for chemical experiments and it is good that it is still available, albeit at a high price. For chemistry experiments with the acid, you can go a long way with 250 ml or so.




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[*] posted on 5-3-2016 at 12:06


I was surprised to still find a liter bottle of acetone at a large well-known hardware store. Bought it because it is excellent for removing the photoresist layer of circuit boards.
Turns out is actually 2-butoxyethanol with surfactants. Highly annoying. Then don't put a large label with "ACETON" on the bottle for f... sake.
I'm willing to bet that if I a kid accidentally ingests it and the mother shows the bottle to the doctor he will treat the kid for acetone poisoning.
Incidentally, it is totally useless for removing photoresist from circuit boards, or anything else I tried with it that I normally use acetone for. A very poor substitute.

[Edited on 5-3-2016 by phlogiston]




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[*] posted on 5-3-2016 at 17:33


Wait.... acetone got banned also?
I thought it was only high concentration H202 that got banned.
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[*] posted on 6-3-2016 at 11:10


The so-called acetone phlogiston bought is eco-acetone:

http://www.pearlpaint.nl/nl/merken-producten/eco-line/aceton...

This is an ecologically benign acetone-substitute and in the Netherlands it replaces true acetone. True acetone is not available anymore at most places. With good searching you may still find it, but nearly everywhere it is replaced by eco-acetone :( .

The same fate is in the make for ligroin (in the Netherlands: wasbenzine) and white spirit (Dutch: terpentine). I already found eco-wasbenzine and eco-terpentine in several hardware stores. The real stuff will disappear soon from the shelves.


[Edited on 7-3-16 by woelen]




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[*] posted on 6-3-2016 at 12:45


How can these people sell such products is beyond me.



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[*] posted on 8-3-2016 at 21:47


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
The so-called acetone phlogiston bought is eco-acetone:
http://www.pearlpaint.nl/nl/merken-producten/eco-line/aceton...
This is an ecologically benign acetone-substitute and in the Netherlands it replaces true acetone. True acetone is not available anymore at most places.



Dear woelen,

can you check what composition they used for this acetone replacement?

Because I have doubts that it is a mixture of 2-butoxyethanol and surfactants which was mentioned from phlogiston.

According to GESTIS http://www.dguv.de/ifa/GESTIS/GESTIS-Stoffdatenbank/index-2.... 2-butoxyethanol has the toxic pictogram.
So I suppose the entry in the NL Wikipedia is wrong:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-butoxyethanol
If you look at the MSDS https://www.carlroth.com/downloads/sdb/nl/0/SDB_0341_NL_NL.p... you see the the same classification as in GESTIS.

If you look at this company PDF at page 5 http://www.pearlpaint.nl/nl/merken-producten/eco-line/aceton...
This product has no hazard symbol....

Bj68

[Edited on 9-3-2016 by BJ68]
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[*] posted on 8-3-2016 at 23:51


This is the MSDS of the product:

https://www.hornbach.nl/data/shop/D04/001/780/495/167/83/872...

It indeed states that the product contains 2-butoxyethanol, less than 8%. I think that the rest will be water and a complicated mix of surfactants and maybe some odorants.

For chemistry purposes, this product is totally useless.




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[*] posted on 9-3-2016 at 04:02


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
This is the MSDS of the product:

https://www.hornbach.nl/data/shop/D04/001/780/495/167/83/872...

It indeed states that the product contains 2-butoxyethanol, less than 8%. I think that the rest will be water and a complicated mix of surfactants and maybe some odorants.

For chemistry purposes, this product is totally useless.



Thanks for the Info....

I think water and a bit of dish washing agent, will have the same effect as that castrated acetone....and it´s not only as chemistry useless, as stripper of photo-resist you can forget it....

I am really shocked, if that is the way what the EU or better ECHA (European Chemicals Agency) with REACH will go...they take the last term of REACH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Auth... very serious.....will be interesting times in the future for people with interest in science, if the do it privately.....sorry I hate the nanny state....


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[*] posted on 9-3-2016 at 04:27


In the Netherlands this process of neutering or replacing all kinds of chemicals already has proceeded quite far. In the average hardware store you hardly can find anything useful anymore:
- acetone, ligroin, and white spirit replaced by "castrated" eco-variants;
- hydrochloric acid replaced by specialty products, like concrete cleaner with pleasant citrus smell (brand HG);
- eco-friendly drain cleaner (also brand HG) which must be poured in the drain, and allowed to do its work for half a day or so;
- lamp oil is replaced by a thick gel, branded as completely natural and biodegradable (some organic stuff, soaked with some alcohol);
- ammonia without smell and made much more viscous so that it does its cleaning action for a longer time. Probably this does not contain real ammonia.
Sulphuric acid has completely disappeared from the shelves, NaOH becomes harder to find.
You can still get nearly all chemicals in the Netherlands (except nitric acid and conc. hydrogen peroxide), but only in specialized online shops like Labstuff or Hinmeijer. I hardly buy anything locally anymore, simply because it disappeared. Especially the last two years, interesting things are disappearing very quickly.




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[*] posted on 9-3-2016 at 06:45


The "war on chemistry" has yet to reach these extremes in the U.S. but the fact that it does go on here as well, and the experience with the EU has prompted me to work up a list of every chemical I thing I would ever be interested in owning/using and to buy it now (or else work how I plan to make it, and make sure I have the necessary reagents for that).

I have a pretty good inventory at this point, my remaining list is fairly short and features rather specialized compounds.

The U.S. does not generally follow the EU in everything, but I have no confidence that won't in this, sooner or later.
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[*] posted on 9-3-2016 at 14:15


Another strategy is dilution:
- 1985: 25% ammonia in supermarkets and hardware stores
- 1995: 15% ammonia
- 2000: 12% ammonia
- 2010: 5% ammonia
- 2016: ammonia being replaced by odourless "ammonia"


- 1985: 12.5% NaOCl
- 1995: 10% NaOCl
- 2005: 5% NaOCl
- 2010: 4% NaOCl
- 2016: specialized products, like ceiling cleaner, chlorine-free toilet cleaners. 4% NaOCl still available, but more and more alternatives appear.

A similar thing is true for acetic acid. In 1985 or so I purchased 80% acetic acid as "vinegar essence". Nowadays the best I can find OTC is 8% acetic acid for cleaning purposes, for higher concentrations you need to go to chemical suppliers or specialized online shops.




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[*] posted on 9-3-2016 at 16:35


85% "vinegar essence" is still for sale in holland, look for it in toko's (indonesian food shop), or other asian supermarkets.

what's really outrageous i think is the sale in certain diy-chainstores of a certain product (i think the actual ingredient list specifies it to be isobutylalcohol among some other crap) as "aceton", while it doesnt contain a single drop of the stuff, and yet, it is the name of the product, and as such, written in big letters on the bottle. - oops, this allready was being discussed :), anyway, how the fuck can this be legal? if u ask me, this doesnt differ in any way from sell for example margarine as butter, or water with emulsifier and margarine as pure margarine, or just water and emulsifier and a drop of vegetable oil as anything other then "lekker op brood" (a actual product for sale in dutch supermarkets, the packaging looks exactly similar to that of butter, margarine and halvarine" )

o, and btw, kruidvat still carries nice naoh pearls at 2euros/500

[Edited on 10-3-2016 by likmevessie]

[Edited on 10-3-2016 by likmevessie]
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[*] posted on 9-3-2016 at 19:42


Like you said, is there not some sort of labelling or advertising law that prevents something being clearly labelled as something it is not? Does it literally say "Acetone" and not something like "Acetone Substitute" etc, similar to what they do with MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) substitute?

Similar things are happening here in the big chain stores though. Floor strippers so tame you could drink them and solvents that extinguish fires.

image.jpeg - 92kB




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