golfpro
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PETN det question--casting ETN
I always see stupid things on TV of detonations to add drama, for example using big gasoline jugs along with dynamite to make a huge fire ball for no
reason. But, there is a video demonstrating 6 grams of PETN with what looks like no detonator, and appears to be ignited by flame, which doesn't
happen.. Just for visual affect I assume, and then there is some sort of fuse and blast cap which is to remain unseen? It was a CNN report, it's on
youtube.
Also, a member here had a terrible time trying to melt ETN, doing the single stupidest thing anyone could have done, you might as well hammer the
press rod making a blasting cap filled with TATP, he put a glass test tube with ETN over a burner and it went off. I have thought about casting ETN,
which is recrystalized twice and completely neutral in the amount of around 50-60 grams, thinking about it, I'd boil some water, and then put the mold
(lined with plastic siran wrap for removal after it hardens) containing firmly pressed ETN in the shape of a hockey puck a bit smaller, is it a bad
idea to be around when this is being melted? Because I'd like to make the casted peice with a pocket indent in the center to be filled with some 5-10
grams pressed ETN to ensure detonation of the cast, when it is done, we would have a max density bit of ETN cast into a shape like a hockey puck only
smaller, this is done with plastic mold.
Is there any excesive danger with this to make it not worthwhile
Thanks
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Dany
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For the first part of PETN that explode and igniting gasoline. Yes of course there are an initiation element. Not necessary a blasting cap. A
detonation cord attached to the PETN charge suffice. Also wrapping a gasoline jug with detonation cord can do the work. PETN can be made to explode
without detonator and this by burning it in a confinement. This phenomena is called DDT (Deflagration to Detonation Transition). Almost all explosive
can undergo DDT (except few insensitive one like TATB). once the explosive burn in confinement the pressure rises and the subsonic flame accelerate to
become a supersonic detonation wave. the confinement may be any physical material including the explosive itself (self-confinement).
For the second part (casting ETN), i'll say don't try this at home!
an anti-personnel landmine contain 50-100 g explosive. imagine if the 50g of ETN detonate in front of you while casting this explosive !
i also recommend reading the sad story of Yamato71 a member in this forum and an explosive expert.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=22554
Dany.
[Edited on 12-8-2013 by Dany]
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golfpro
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Please don't call it an "anti-personell" land mine, that's completely wrong, it's something interesting and cool, and I play safe or as safe as
possible.
Of course 50g ETN in front of me would be a bad day, but the chances of this happening given the circumstances?(container, water for slow heating)?
That Yamato story seems fishy at best, FEL licensee, 40 years of chem/explosive experience, pHd in organic chemistry, and he buys a "pyrox" glass
beaker from WALMART???
Dany, you seem to know a lot, what country are you in and what spurred your interest or knowlede for energetics and chemistry? just wondering?
[Edited on 12-8-2013 by golfpro]
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Gargamel
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I also thought about casting ETN in the past. If it could be done safely, it would be a very convenient method, as opposed to pressing it in shape.
No brisance reducing binder and always optimum density...
How about just using a waterbath, heat to maybe 70°C and cast into the final container?
Maybe also heat the container in the waterbath to the same temperature to prevent the ETN freezing before it could reach every spot...
I would assume it to behave like other liquid nitric esters - very shock sensitive, not so much friction sensitive (but assuming is of course not
knowing!)...
All ETN accidents that have been known around the hobbyscene where caused by NOT using a waterbath buth rather heating over open flame,
recrystalisation solvent catching fire ect.
IMHO they are not being caused by ETN behaving so bitchy.
| Quote: |
That Yamato story seems fishy at best, FEL licensee, 40 years of chem/explosive experience, pHd in organic chemistry, and he buys a "pyrox" glass
beaker from WALMART??? |
Why not? I can imagine he gained his 40 years of experience rather at work than at home.
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hyfalcon
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I think his familiarity with the compound was his undoing. If you become complacent around energetics they can bite you or kill you.
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Pulverulescent
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| Quote: | | How about just using a waterbath, heat to maybe 70°C and cast into the final container? |
PETN melts @ ~140°C and its sensitiveness increases with temperature . . .
To 'try' melting this compound in an amateur set-up would look like the expression of a death wish!
[edit] Ooops! 'Sorry, got my acronyms mixed up!
But what I said goes for ETN, too!
[Edited on 12-8-2013 by Pulverulescent]
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
A Einstein
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golfpro
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I think I am going to cast the stuff when it dries. A quick question on yields: I am getting only 15g or so no matter what, I powder the erythritol
(20g) in mortar pestle, recrystalize AN and use within hours after it's fully dry as well as powder that in mortar pestle, initially, the AN is
combined with the sulfuric without cooling and the beaker gets hot to the touch, that's when it goes in the freezer covered, cool to 22* C and E is
added over 30 mins, then left to sit for 45 mins, temp rises to 25*C with stirring ever 5 mins. Mixture is like pudding, gets dumped into water, and
10-15g every time?? I have two batches I did back to back drying right now, but it looks like 35g at best, and this stuff is a pain to make, it takes
forever, so high RE explosives are basically limited to sub 40 grams? (unless you sit for a straight week 8 hrs a day repeating the ETN synth over and
over) I don't care much, but one thing I'd like to see is a decent amount of a high RE explosive detonating at max density.
125ml sulfuric (drain opener, supposedly 93%)
20g Erythritol (pure)
60g AN (pure)
BTW, I have 50ml of distilled (from sulfuric/KNO3) nitric acid or so that I made to use for a few different things, it's contaminated now w/ NO2, but
that seems to be easy to remove. I'd like to maybe try RDX with the excess, but I know nothing about it yet, and can't find approx. yields achieved
from X amount of nitric acid, so 50ml---would it be worth my time? I have pure hexamine as well.
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VladimirLem
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i really hope you have professional equipment and knowledge and really pure chems AND even then, i doubt i would do that....
If your interested in cast explosives, TNP seems saver...afaik...
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Fantasma4500
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ral123 might want to tell about this.. hes done it several times before, anyhow an antipersonal mine is not a cool thing -- its a weapon, its an anti
personnel mine, meant to kill or harm a person, thereby the name
suppose you took it wrong, just incase, because its pretty damn wrong (:
you want to heat water to approx 75*C, and have the container not having a hott bottom etc.
then put the E into a metal container (aluminium?) without lid on, then leave it there until water cools, plus this isnt done anywhere near what you
dont want to fall apart etc
still dont get why you double recrystallize it although..
there is just not gonna be any impurities thats soluble in ethanol, considering K2SO4, H2SO4 and KNO3 in the whole synthesis, aswell as Erythritol
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golfpro
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anti swat, thanks for the reply, but you are very far off on a few things, nowhere did I say anything about antipersonnel mines, that is totally wrong
to call it that, because it's not used on people.
Heat what amount of water to 75*C??
I'd like someone who has expereince casting ETN to chime in. Melt casting ETN in any metal container, especially aluminum sounds like a horrible idea
even in water, when plastic container does just fine?
Why two recrystalizations for the same material? First time is for purity, second time is for the physical characteristic. Recrystalization is done by
cooling the ETN solution in ethanol until all precipitates around -12*C, you can't just pour the ethanol/ETN into larger volume of water to
precipitate because this does nothing for purity. We get weird shaving flake type stuff with the recrystalization with cooling, so I redisolve this in
the same amount of EtOH and pour it into a large enough volume of water to precipitate everything so we get powder, better to work with.
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Microtek
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Since you seem determined to cast some HE, here's my suggestion:
Synthesize some TNT and use it as a basis of your melt. This will make a pentolite equivalent with ETN instead of PETN. I haven't done this myself,
but I would suppose that it would be a lot safer than casting straight ETN.
TNT isn't particularly difficult to prepare if you just have access to sulfuric, nitric and toluene.
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golfpro
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Sounds cool, but I'd probably find big foot before I stumble on some Toluene, without ordering it.
I'll do my best, because I ski a lot and the avalanche control charges used by the resort are 2lbs. of pentolite what I've been told.
I've never had problem with the actual procedures for anything, it's getting the reagents the biggest challenge, and I don't like the idea of ordering
things.
I'll stay away from cast ETN if it's too dangerous to be done and just resort to firmly pressing it or going the "TNT" route, or plasticize it, or
make an EGDN paste, or all of those. Is the blast pressure a linear equation of charge material density to some degree? So, if I can get to 1g/cc with
pressing, I am still well short of the 1.6g/cc, is there that much difference in the detonations of these two? And then compare that to some loose,
light fluffy material occupying large volume for the given mass.
[Edited on 13-8-2013 by golfpro]
[Edited on 13-8-2013 by golfpro]
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Bot0nist
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Golfpro, a few thoughts have sprang to my mind.
I think that ETN is not suitable as a base charge. It is rather sensitive for a secondary. It does have really nice properties in a lot of ways
though.
I have seen it meltcasted in smaller quantities, and to great effect as a component in compound caps, but meltcasting a large mass of it is very risky
I would think. The sensitivities that ETN already has as a secondary (close to primary) will be much worse when in a melted, heated state. If an
accidental detonation occures with 15+ grams of molten ETN it would be catastrophic to anything, and anyone nearby. Even under a gram going off when
you don't want it to can have a horrible effect.
TNT is a much more suitable secondary for larger amount, truly, but is large amount needed?.. I wouldnt go near a "science experiment" of that nature
and scale.
If what your after is seeing strong results on your witness plates or whatever, you should really check out shaped charges and ESPs. Its a great way
to minimize the amount of EM you need to use to meaningfully impact/damage the targeted plate. Really great physics and theory involved as well.
Be safe.
[Edited on 14-8-2013 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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golfpro
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Thanks, I won't cast the ETN then. Every one of my caps from here out will be: 250mg SA*DS and 700mg ETN all pressed with a long heavy steel rod in an
anti-shrapnel tube, the long steel rod, because it's heavy enough it couldn't take on a high velocity launching out of my hands if the cap goes off
pressing. I have heard RDX is a great base charge in caps, but needs LA initiation, the double salt won't do it without using copious amounts. LA is
beyond my abilities, and not beyond my abilities that way, I just don't think it is reasonably possible, I am satisfied with Silver Acetylide DS.
I never really liked the thought of TNT when there are much better alternatives, but a TNT/ETN cast would be neat.
There are a good couple tests/experiments that I'd like to do in spare time though.
If casting ETN was more feasable, I'd like to see 10g cast max density, then 10g pressed to good density, then 10g completely loose and fluffy all in
the same shape and container on the same witness plates, and see what the sound differences are etc.
How much worry is there for legal trouble with experimenting in energetic material??? Has anyone on here been taken away?
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Microtek
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The legal ramifications will vary from one country to the next, but in the present social climate it is not advisable to catch the attention of the
authorities. You'll end up in their files.
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Dany
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Golfpro and other cute members,
i mentioned the landmine just to give an example of an explosive device containing the same amount of explosive used by golfpro; which is 50 g. The
detonation of cast ETN is even more powerfull than explosive found in some type of landmine such as TNT.
btw, here's an old patent of fabricating a detonator with ETN as a base charge.
Dany.
Attachment: detonator.pdf (79kB)
This file has been downloaded 476 times
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bfesser
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I normally avoid getting involved in the <strong>Energetic Materials</strong> (EM) forum, and try to leave the moderation to those who are
knowledgeable, but this topic seems quite weapons-oriented to me. I'm locking it for now, but welcome one of the EM-friendly moderators to re-open
it, based on their own judgement and expertise, if they feel it is warranted.
As always, feel free to U2U me if you feel that I'm in error.
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