Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: simple energetic materials
the_2810_cluster
Harmless
*




Posts: 1
Registered: 29-10-2002
Location: beside burning acrylonitrile
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 29-10-2002 at 11:52
simple energetic materials


I think,
NO2CH2CBrNO2CH3O2N
are a simple powerful energetic material.
Any comments ?




View user's profile View All Posts By User
IodineForLunch
Harmless
*




Posts: 34
Registered: 28-8-2002
Location: NJ
Member Is Offline

Mood: bored

[*] posted on 29-10-2002 at 14:00
no


This substance cannot exist. There are several reasons, but I will show you just one.

Every atom (with a few exceptions) requires eight electrons in its outer (valence) shell in order to be stable. Atoms accomplish this by forming electron bonds. Now, nitrogen has five electrons in its outer shell, which means it needs 3 more electrons to bond to it. Therefore, it needs three single-pair bonds, conviently abbreviated by a dash.

The nitro group alone has three bonds plus a free bond, but since it's a resonance hybrid, that's allowable. Now, in your chemical, the nitro group is forced to bond not only to the carbon previous to the bromine (or is it to the bromine? I can't tell), but also to the carbon in the methyl group to the right. A nitro group with five bonds? No frickin' way. Take some chemistry courses before you start spewing out formulas with nitro groups all over the place hoping they'll go bang.

The closest chemical I can think of to yours would be trinitrobromopropane, C3H4(NO2)3Br.

David Hansen
View user's profile View All Posts By User
madscientist
National Hazard
****




Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline

Mood: pyrophoric

[*] posted on 29-10-2002 at 15:35


Quote:
NO2CH2CBrNO2CH3O2N


I think that was supposed to be O2NCH2CBrNO2CH2NO2 (1,2,3-trinitro-2-bromo-propane), which would exist.

Why the bromine atom? Adding a bromine atom to an organic energetic material would make it less energetic.




I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Nick F
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 439
Registered: 7-9-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 30-10-2002 at 04:42


It would make it denser and also slightly improve the oxygen balance, and make some nasty fumes upon detonation, but it's not worth the trouble of getting it there.
And trinitropropane wouldn't be as good as NG from the point of view of power or VoD.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
madscientist
National Hazard
****




Posts: 962
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: American Midwest
Member Is Offline

Mood: pyrophoric

[*] posted on 30-10-2002 at 15:00


It would improve the density, but I don't think that it's going to make it any more powerful. Think of it this way: mixing TNT with lead is going to make the TNT denser, but not any more powerful...



I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Boob Raider
Harmless
*




Posts: 33
Registered: 15-10-2002
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: Picros

[*] posted on 30-10-2002 at 20:16
Well now that


this has been brought up ...... I have a couple of things I wanted to try.
Methanal + Anhy. Hydrazine = Methanal Hydrazone. (CH2=N-NH2)
Now this is nitrated to replace the one of the H's on the -NH2 to get >
CH2=N-NH-NO2
Also if Chloro Hydrazine (N2H3Cl. prepared from chloro urea) is used instead of just hydrazine to get >
CH2=N-NHCl which if treated with NaN3 would give >
CH2=N-NH-N=N=N
Tetrachloro Hydrazine (N2Cl4) prepared from tetrachloro urea is treated with NaN3 to get an all Nitrogen structure somewhat on the Nitrogen buckyball principle >
(N3)2-N=N-(N3)2
So theoretically speaking ..... are these possible ?




\"Go down in a Blaze of Glory\"
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
the_ baker
Harmless
*




Posts: 1
Registered: 8-11-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-11-2002 at 19:06


I must give this material a trial after sleeping.

CH3CHO2NCHNO2CH3
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Microtek
National Hazard
****




Posts: 827
Registered: 23-9-2002
Member Is Online

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 9-11-2002 at 10:50


2,3-dinitrobutane? I don't think it will be particularly powerful; perhaps along the lines of ethylnitrate.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Abramellin
Harmless
*




Posts: 3
Registered: 10-12-2002
Location: Germany, Berlin
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-12-2002 at 07:13


For anyone that`s interested, i have found a description
of a complex energetic material in form of
a tris-cage-compound in my chemistry book

TSTTTPAPNA

C18H42O30N30S3

SHCHCHNNOOHCHNNOOHCHNNOOHCHNNOO
HHNNOOHCHHSHCHCHNNOOHCHNNOOHCHN
NOOHCHNNOOHHNNOOHCHHSHCHCHNNOOH
CHNNOOHCHNNOOHCHNNOOHHNNOOHCHH




In memory of great bio-vesiers of the 19th century.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Nick F
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 439
Registered: 7-9-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-12-2002 at 10:18


Tell us how to make it and we might be interested.
Otherwise it's nothing more than a load of letters on a page, is it?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Nick F
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 439
Registered: 7-9-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-12-2002 at 10:19


And also you will notice that the title of the topic is "simple energetic materials", which that clearly isn't.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Anarchist
Harmless
*




Posts: 19
Registered: 18-12-2002
Location: nowhere and everywhere
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 20-12-2002 at 20:54


Please correct me if i'm wrong, but I don't think all of the electron shells can hold only 8 electrons( however it is true that nitrogens valence holds 8), but i believe the first ring holds 2 the second and third hold 8, I think but am not sure that the fourth shell will hold 16.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Darkfire
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 292
Registered: 3-1-2003
Location: California
Member Is Offline

Mood: Wondering

[*] posted on 4-1-2003 at 12:46


Well actualy each shell hold only 2, no shells hold 8.

CTR
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

cool.gif posted on 18-3-2003 at 07:06


2,3 Dinitrobutane is a powerful explosive in the range of TNT but it displays low thermal stability being a vicinal dinitrocompound!

CH2=O + H2N-NH2 --> CH2=N-NH2 + CH2=N-N=CH2 + 1,3,5-triamino-1,3,5-triazacylohexane
The later cna be obtained by reduction of R-salt (trinitroso brother of RDX) and by reduction of RDX!

There is very little chance the sequence R2N-NH-NO2 can exist!

NH2-NH2 is decomposed by Cl2 and NH2-NHCl isn't isolable intermediary!

N2Cl4 doesn't exist but N2F4 does!
Then maybe that N2F4 + 4NaN3 --> N2(N3)4 + 4NaF
But I doubt it since NF3 and NCl3 are known for age and no mention is done about substitution of the halide by NO, NO2, NH2 or N3!

O2N-CH2-CBr(NO2)-CH2-NO2 is a very powerful explosive power exceeds nitroglycerin and PETN but sensitivity is high and thermal stability low.

There are no scientifical datas that shows a halide slows the down the VOD!
Usually the nitrohalides are sensitive, chemically reactive and therefore unsuitable for military ammos; this explain they haven't been studied wel; but this doesn't prove them to be less powerful!
I have long searched for the VODs of chloropicirn (trichloronitromethane) and bromopicrin to compare with nitromethane VOD to prove or infirm that assumption; I also searched for the datas of chloro,bromo or iodo-trinitrobenzene vs TNB and trichloro, tribromo and triiodotrinitrobenzene but found nothing!

As it is wel known the density of the molecule has a strong effect on the VOD and for related molecules you may say the denser will be more or equaly powerful!

Triiodotrinitrobenzene>tribromotrinitrobenzene>trichlorotrinitrobenzene >> TNB
And VOD should be in the same order but moisture/chemical stability too!
For halide derivatives the halide contributes to the OB and improves it!

Anyway!
It is logical and proven that:
CH3-NO2 < O2N-CH2-CH2-NO2 < 1,2,3 trinitropropane <...in order of power!
Then you see that:
2(O2N-CH2-)2C(NO2)-Br + Zn/Cu --> (O2N-CH2-)2C(NO2)-C(NO2)(-CH2-NO2)2 + ZnBr2 or CuBr2

Thus the resulting 1,2,3,4 tetranitro-2,3 nitromethyl-butane is a very powerful and dense explosive C6H8(NO2)6




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top