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Texium
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That is beautiful!
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Zephyr
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Are the remaining two iron and osmium?
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Brain&Force
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Nope and nope. I really should get iron though - it's not too hard.
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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Texium
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Aluminum for the shiny one
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Brain&Force
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The shiny one is magnesium from a pencil sharpener. The dark one is terbium.
At the end of the day, simulating atoms doesn't beat working with the real things...
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Texium
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Damnit, one element off!
Edit: Should've guessed terbium for that other one, considering how much time you spend on it!
[Edited on 6-24-2014 by zts16]
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careysub
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How To Add Some of Those Actinides to Your Element Collection:
Except for uranium and thorium, which have such long half lives that they are not rare on Earth, and not very dangerous all of the others are only
available (and for the most part only reasonably safe) in tiny amounts.
This presents a problem with exhibition - you either deposit a microscopic amount on a glass slide and exhibit with a microscope, or you mix it with a
phosphor and display the glowing mixture. I suggest that the latter makes a better presentation, and is easier to arrange. (To the argument that you
can't really see it then, I respond that except for chlorine you can't see any of the gases either).
For radium, watch dial parts are available on eBay so you get radium already ready for display.
Americium (the only transuranic in the consumer marketplace) can be worked up from smoke detectors to give the same effect.
A smoke detector contains 1 microcurie of Am; a typical phosphor mixture used in clock dials was something like 30 microcuries per gram of phosphor
(zinc sulfide traditionally) though a wide range of activities was used. The range of average total activity present in wrist watches was 0.04 to 0.4
microcuries, with a high of 1.4 microcuries (probably a military aviator watch) so there is plenty of kick in a smoke detector to produce a nice glow.
Combining the Am with ZnS will require dissolving the source in aqua regia (they made it hard to get out on purpose). I haven't worked out all the
chemical steps yet, but your goal will be to precipiate it with a carrier that is then combined with the phosphor. I imagine that there are brighter
phosphors available now.
I looked at some previous threads discussing Americium I was surprised to see a certain amount of the radiation version of "chemophobia". Sure
radiation in sufficiently large amounts can be harmful, but this is true of all chemicals too, and with proper handling (and in small amounts) real
hazards can be avoided.
If you want to get really radical you could get some natural uranium ore and extract the decay chain daughters (Shannon & Sons on-line has German
pitchblende for $173/kg). If the ore is 1% uranium then 1 kg would have 3.4 microcuries of U-238, and 3.4 micrograms (microcuries) of radium-226.
Extracting this (precipitating with barium) could be used to make a combined radium/radon display tube (glow at the bottom from radium, glow at the
top from radon).
Total activity of the ore would be ~45 microcuries of everything.
A kg of ore would have a few micrograms of protactinium also (~0.15 microcuries), barely enough for a luminous display.
If you extracted lead from the ore you might be able to create a polonium display tube: Pb-210 containing lead at the bottom of an evacuated tube,
coated with phosphor at the upper end. Polonium would migrate to the upper tube, similar to the radon tube.
Just suggestions for the guy who as all the stable elements...
[Edited on 6-8-2014 by careysub]
[Edited on 6-8-2014 by careysub]
[Edited on 6-8-2014 by careysub]
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Polverone
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Wouldn't polonium-containing antistatic cartridges for brushes be a more readily available source than pitchblende? I recall that my parents had one
of those brushes for their turntable, and the brushes and cartridges still seem to be available today. Take a picture if you can get a glowing
polonium mixture -- it's not going to last very long.
A quick stab at americium purification: the source in smoke detectors appears to be a palladium-americium foil thinly covered in gold. Aqua regia puts
everything into solution. Evaporate solution to dryness without boiling to remove excess acid. Dissolve residue in distilled water and use graphite
anode, metallic cathode to plate out both gold and palladium. I'm not sure what the next step is after removing noble metals from the solution. This
NTIS report suggests that tributyl phosphate is effective for solvent extraction of americium from aqueous solution, and simplified in our case
because there aren't other actinides present: http://www.sciencemadness.org/lanl1_a/lib-www/books/rc000061...
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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careysub
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Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  | | Wouldn't polonium-containing antistatic cartridges for brushes be a more readily available source than pitchblende? I recall that my parents had one
of those brushes for their turntable, and the brushes and cartridges still seem to be available today. Take a picture if you can get a glowing
polonium mixture -- it's not going to last very long. |
That is why you must go to a natural uranium ore source. You need the "mother" nuclide of Po-210, which is Pb-210 with a 22.2 year half-life. It
constantly generates new polonium by decaying into Bi-210 (5 day half-life) and then into Po-210.
The Pb-210 is the indirect decay product of Ra-226 (1600 years) via a decay chain in which the longest half-life is 3.6 days, and the next longest 1.3
minutes.
Before they had production reactors up and running the Manhattan Project relied on lead from uranium ore to harvest polonium.
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careysub
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| Quote: Originally posted by Polverone | ...
A quick stab at americium purification: the source in smoke detectors appears to be a palladium-americium foil thinly covered in gold. Aqua regia puts
everything into solution. Evaporate solution to dryness without boiling to remove excess acid. Dissolve residue in distilled water and use graphite
anode, metallic cathode to plate out both gold and palladium. I'm not sure what the next step is after removing noble metals from the solution. This
NTIS report suggests that tributyl phosphate is effective for solvent extraction of americium from aqueous solution, and simplified in our case
because there aren't other actinides present: http://www.sciencemadness.org/lanl1_a/lib-www/books/rc000061... |
Where to get tributyl phosphate?
Fission product separation is about the worst inorganic separation task there is since practically half the periodic table is present in the intensely
radioactive witches brew.
I suspect there is something much easier for separating Am from Pd and Au. (Probably the original bismuth phosphate precipitation process would work,
maybe in only one step.)
[Edited on 6-8-2014 by careysub]
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Mailinmypocket
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In concept the idea is nice but I'm not sure I would want to dissolve smoke detector Am pellets in aqua regia at home without knowing where it ends up
and how. It probably is not legal either to have dirty lab equipment everywhere, let alone the health risks of soluble alpha emitters. Working with
alpha contaminated glass can't be a good idea. Better to keep the Am in the metal slug and stop there surely?
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careysub
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket | | In concept the idea is nice but I'm not sure I would want to dissolve smoke detector Am pellets in aqua regia at home without knowing where it ends up
and how. It probably is not legal either to have dirty lab equipment everywhere, let alone the health risks of soluble alpha emitters. Working with
alpha contaminated glass can't be a good idea. Better to keep the Am in the metal slug and stop there surely? |
This touches upon the issue of "radiophobia" I mentioned earlier - where safety procedures and risk assessment principles that apply to all chemicals
are deemed to be ineffective for radiotoxins for no clear reason.
First consider the magnitude of hazard you are working with - one microcurie of Am-241. The OSHA oral ALI (annual limit of intake) for this isotope is
0.8 microcuries. This means you could swallow it all, and do so every 15 months and stay within OSHA safety standards.
What do you mean "without knowing where it ends up and how"? The purpose of this is to transfer all of it to a sealed vial for display, and what we
are discussing is exact procedures that will accomplish that. It isn't magic.
And why is your lab equipment alpha contaminated*? And "dirty everywhere"???
I suspect you do know how to clean glassware.
[Sorry for giving offense. It would have been better to make this a simple direct statement using "know" instead of "suspect" since the intent was to
convey my belief that you do know how to clean glassware, and thus deal with the contamination issue successfully.]
Do you ever use lead or mercury salts, or any other material that would be toxic to ingest? Why do these procedures suddenly fail with a trace of
radioactive heavy metal?
It isn't an evil curse.
*Alpha contaminated means it won't affect anyone unless perhaps they lick it.
[Edited on 7-8-2014 by careysub]
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Mailinmypocket
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It is not radiophobia. It's is the suggestion that everyone should simply dissolve Am slugs into aqua regia at home, for element collections without
mentioning safety or disposal at all. One who so broadly states that Am slugs dissolved into soluble form at home should at the very least caution
people about the potential hazards. Yes the amount is low but why introduce more radioactive isotopes into your living environment than necessary?
Yes I know how to clean glass, no need for arrogant remarks. Cleaning radioactive isotopes from glassware is rather different than cleaning certain
other lab chemicals, did you know that?
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Polverone
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| Quote: Originally posted by careysub | | Quote: Originally posted by Polverone | ...
A quick stab at americium purification: the source in smoke detectors appears to be a palladium-americium foil thinly covered in gold. Aqua regia puts
everything into solution. Evaporate solution to dryness without boiling to remove excess acid. Dissolve residue in distilled water and use graphite
anode, metallic cathode to plate out both gold and palladium. I'm not sure what the next step is after removing noble metals from the solution. This
NTIS report suggests that tributyl phosphate is effective for solvent extraction of americium from aqueous solution, and simplified in our case
because there aren't other actinides present: http://www.sciencemadness.org/lanl1_a/lib-www/books/rc000061... |
Where to get tributyl phosphate?
Fission product separation is about the worst inorganic separation task there is since practically half the periodic table is present in the intensely
radioactive witches brew.
I suspect there is something much easier for separating Am from Pd and Au. (Probably the original bismuth phosphate precipitation process would work,
maybe in only one step.)
|
Ah, I see I read your pitchblende suggestion too hastily. Good point about Pb-210.
Elemental Scientific stocks tributyl phosphate, though their prices are a little high. It seems to be pretty widely available from other laboratory
suppliers too, though I haven't dug into all of them to see how many will sell to individuals. It may well be overkill compared to coprecipitation
directly from the aqueous solution.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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neptunium
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this is an idea i had 20 some years ago... it seems like everybody is doing it theses days! witch is a good thing!
i am glad to see that!
mine is still being fabricated when i realized he forgot 1 case !
its 17 wide ! what the hell ! but he said he can fix it!
just need to fix that , fput the finish on and hang it for display!
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careysub
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket | It is not radiophobia. It's is the suggestion that everyone should simply dissolve Am slugs into aqua regia at home, for element collections without
mentioning safety or disposal at all.
One who so broadly states that Am slugs dissolved into soluble form at home should at the very least caution people about the potential hazards.
|
I cautioned that proper handling procedures and tiny amounts of material were necessary for safety. This isn't a detailed procedure post, so what else
did you want? No mention of "everyone" that I can see. What do you mean by "broadly"?
What special hazards exceeding or not involved with, say dissolving cinnabar in aqua regia to make mercuric chloride, do you perceive?
Anything starting with dissolving something with aqua regia for any reason already presupposes skill in handling dangerous materials. Threads
involving such preps (look up the cinnabar/aqua regia thread) do not normally discuss the standard safety procedures that everyone must know and use
(it would make them all very tedious).
In particular what procedures do you think I should have described? You didn't describe any in either of your posts.
| Quote: | | Yes the amount is low but why introduce more radioactive isotopes into your living environment than necessary? |
This is different from introducing more chemicals into your living environment than necessary? Why, specifically?
This seems to be an argument against amateur chemistry as a whole, certainly against most of what gets discussed on this site.
| Quote: | | Yes I know how to clean glass, no need for arrogant remarks. |
I knew you did, and my comment actually implies that I do. I should have used the definite "think" or "know" instead of "suspect". Sorry. I added an
apology note to the original. I will amend it if you prefer a different statement of apology.
| Quote: | | Cleaning radioactive isotopes from glassware is rather different than cleaning certain other lab chemicals, did you know that?
|
Cleaning any type of chemical from glassware is rather different than cleaning certain other lab chemicals.
Are you saying that if the chemical is radioactive then special procedures are necessary that do not apply to any other type of chemical?
If not, what do you mean?
I assert that any cleaning procedure that will remove heavy metal residues reliably from glassware will work with Americium.
If you disagree, please give specific reasons which we can then discuss.
If I am wrong about this then I need to be set straight.
******
I think ScienceMadness is long overdue a thread discussing radiochemistry. I am going to start one.
If this discussion seems likely to continue, perhaps it should be carried over there.
[Edited on 7-8-2014 by careysub]
[Edited on 7-8-2014 by careysub]
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careysub
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| Quote: Originally posted by Polverone |
Ah, I see I read your pitchblende suggestion too hastily. Good point about Pb-210.
Elemental Scientific stocks tributyl phosphate, though their prices are a little high. It seems to be pretty widely available from other laboratory
suppliers too, though I haven't dug into all of them to see how many will sell to individuals. It may well be overkill compared to coprecipitation
directly from the aqueous solution. |
I had done a quick search of "the usual sources" (which I know I can buy from) and turned up nothing, I must have mistyped when searching Elemental
since I saw no results.
Yes the TBP extraction could be used, as could the bismuth phosphate precipitation, once the details are worked out.
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