Sigerson
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New to Chem, New to you all, Living in Tx and kinda concerned
Im editing down this post just to get down to primary question. I want to study chemistry because I never got a good education in it while in high
school but am curious if anyone has had any experience with getting a permit for the equipment here in Tx. I don't mind putting in for the permit if
there's a fair chance I could get in any real trouble without it. I just want to get a few different kinds of flasks but if that wont bring unwanted
notice, than maybe I'm better off leaving the matter be?
I'm welcome to any thoughts. Thanks!
[Edited on 22-2-2014 by Sigerson]
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thesmug
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TX has some pretty unfair rules as to glassware. You would pretty much need a permit to do chemistry at all in TX. If it's something you're really
interested in, you should get the permit.
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Sigerson
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that's the way I'm leaning as well but with them needing to come to my home and do an inspection, my lab if you could call it that, (its small with a
single wooden table for everything I have plus a set of plastic drawers for storing a few other items) is in an apartment. I don't know honestly how
this all plays out. Part of me would love to have the chance to demonstrate my intentions and walk the police through everything I have. I really
don't have any designs on doing anything that would be cause for concern, and I'm guessing there are at least a few eyes rolling at my being worried.
[Edited on 23-2-2014 by Sigerson]
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Zyklon-A
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Hmmm, I live in Dallas Tx, and I've had no problem getting any glassware or chemicals. I have not had any trouble with company's saying that they
can't ship to Texas, so I doubt you will either.
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Sigerson
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Agreed, I purchased three somewhat small flasks before I learned about the law and without incident. Most companies provide a disclaimer somewhere on
the site stating that by making a purchase, they assume we have requisite permits.
I'm sure this is just my being worried for little to no reason. A friend's husband with the narcotics division said it would take them finding drug
residue inside the flasks for them to press conviction. Just the same, it's Texas. Just in the last day or two, a student jogging around UT in her
jogging shorts, sneakers and t-shirt was pulled over by two cops for jaywalking. When she couldn't produce an ID, they arrested her and called in for
back up. All she could do is yell that she hasn't done anything wrong.
http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2014/02/20/woman-arrest...
Looks like they just updated the story citing an apology but the fact remains they first felt it was reasonable to arrest her.
There are other stories of them doing more to people for less. I'm just at a point in my life where I'm genuinely happy, genuinely content and so much
of that has to do with my finally finding the time to learn subjects I never got a chance to in high school or college. Even the possibility that the
state would punish those of us trying espouse an ideal that the rest of the country could only benefit from,namely taking education seriously, being
scientifically inquisitive and pursuing an education in areas our own system has left gaping holes in, is just a shock. If this were limited to them,
upon suspicion of someone, conducting an inspection or paying the individual a visit, that would be one thing but some of the stories I've read have
shown cops trying to squeeze a conviction by stretching what little evidence they found.
Science holds a veritable sanctity for me. Many Texans don't like anyone speaking ill of their way of life or religious beliefs. So consider this
mine.
I won't mess with Texas but Texas don't mess with my lessons.
[Edited on 23-2-2014 by Sigerson]
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Sigerson
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And please understand, I do realize that this is a relatively new revelation for me, but that this topic must be an overstated concern I'm sure many
of you have discussed at great length in the past. But after reading up on this topic some more, I'm realizing this problem isn't so isolated, so
localized. Sure, it definitely sounds like Texas is regarded as having the most backwards & misguided policy. Every article I've read anyhow puts
Texas at the top of the list among those states doing far more harm than good, clearly unaware of the damage they're inflicting on the minds, the
motivation and natural curiosity of those wanting to supplement an already failing education system. But it's obviously a much larger problem than
just Tx.
I just finished reading several articles, one of which I'm guessing many of you already come across and it's just saddening.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry_pr.html
Just this one quote in the article alone makes me cringe and want to shout.
“A lot of schools don’t have chemistry labs anymore,” explains CEF educational coordinator Laurel Brent. “We want to give kids lessons
that tie in to their real-world experiences without having them deal with a lot of strange chemicals in bottles that have big long names.”
.... strange chemicals that have big long names. The condescending tone is so baffling
I'm failing to find the words.
One night, around 17 years ago when I was just entering into college, my childhood friend and I stayed up all evening, debating/discussing our
positions on a wide range of societal issues from social welfare programs to capital punishment to abortion on through to prison and the justice
system in the U.S. We agreed on many points, disagreed on others but after a solid 9-10 hours, around the time the sun was rising, we arrived to the
same conclusion that regardless which side of the fence we found ourselves, we both agreed unequivocally that the solution to every concern or issue
we face as a society comes down to education.
Now of course our minds have changed on the specifics over the years as our ability to think critically improved with practice but still I held on to
the conclusion we arrived to that evening. I believed in an ideal that I felt set the U.S. apart from so many other parts of the world. No matter what
we faced as a society, ours was an environment which promoted self actualization, individual growth and development. I believed this so strongly that
I guided my life in the direction of becoming an educator. I had the honor of teaching philosophy and anthropology as a graduate student. During
election years, I would teach 3 week courses in logic, specifically citing the fallacies found in political rhetoric at charter schools in L.A. And
upon moving to Texas, I enrolled in a teaching certification program with hopes of teaching high school science myself, to do right what was done so
poorly when I was in high school.
So forgive my lengthy posts on this topic. I'm not generally naïve, but realizing how far reaching this problem has become, to realize I'm living in
the state leading the way towards inhibiting self education and scientific curiosity among it's citizens, well it's clearly a bit of a shock. This was
supposed to be the time in my life when I finally dedicated myself to learning those subjects my own private school education failed to provide. As it
is, I had to place my career path as a teacher on hold as I try to gain acceptance into law school. Initially it was to work as a patient advocate for
those needing better health care in our country. Perhaps the real calling for me is education reform.
[Edited on 23-2-2014 by Sigerson]
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Sigerson
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Also, I think it's worth noting that while growing up in Los Angeles, I would witness ways in which education could have helped the exact problem
these laws claim to target, namely drug use. Everyone I knew that eventually found themselves seeking escape through drugs generally did so for common
reasons, the occasional exception aside. Primarily, for many it was just natural curiosity, something intrinsic to every human. Beyond curiosity which
I think most would agree scientific discovery could satiate at least somewhat, in a city like Los Angeles, with a cacophony of stimulation around
every corner and the myriad distractions, eventually a pervasive boredom sets in. I'm sure this is something that can be said about any town in any
state. One could only hope that these distractions would keep you motivated indefinitely but for many I saw turning to drugs, the boredom won out more
often than not and drugs were the answer. I know for me personally, the lessons and labs I have to look forward to when I get home from work motivate
me greatly. They give me plenty of reason to get out of bed.
Of course I can't expect most people to share my motivation but at the same time, I can't help but think that if we nurtured that curiosity more
throughout our early years, it wouldn't sound so strange to say that studying a new science gives one more meaning and motivation in their everyday
lives. Or maybe that's just me. Regardless, I will still continue with my own studies and work through my labs. I'm just going to be more mindful of
any consequences before purchasing anything on the State list.
Anyhow, sorry if this is off topic. This issue seems to have lit a fire underneath me and as of this moment, you fine folk are the only outlet I have
to share what I would hope is a shared perspective. That said, I'll step down from my soap box and work through this paradigm shift internally for a
while. And a sincere thanks to anyone who managed to read this far.
[Edited on 23-2-2014 by Sigerson]
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arkoma
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I did read it all.
Sometimes you must make decisions that perhaps include consequences. The bunch of traitorous criminals that gathered in Philadelphia 200+ years ago
certainly did. Seems to me that if you are an educator, then by god don't let a misguided statute get in the way. (Try to buy book matches in Texas,
Oklahoma, Arkansas--yep, can't have them cause ya might use them for meth).
I'm 50, and when I took chemistry in eleventh grade (in Florida) we DID stuff. Christ I remember us having chloroform. I learned how to do an
acid/base wash in that class. Thank God in 2014 the damned liberals are here to save us all from anything slightly dangerous!
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thesmug
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Try not to express political opinions here.
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IrC
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Your between a rock and a hard place. If you do not stay legal you have no defense. If you go legal in your setting you have various federal agencies
and fire, hazmat, you name it, all coming down on you for a chem lab in an apartment. You cannot win. Study theoretical chemistry and if your really
serious find another state. Or move somewhere zoned industrial with your lab legal by the book. Or become another news story. The cavalier attitude of
Zyklonb will not help him if he ever has something happen which brings them in for whatever the reason. Hopefully he has deep pockets as if that ever
happens he will need the money for legal defense. It is as simple as that regardless of anyone's opinion you care to read. The law does not care about
the opinions of any home chemist no matter how many years they have gone unnoticed.
A family fight, a medical emergency, a fire in yours or a nearby apartment it does not matter the reason. A nosy neighbor. You name the scenario,
there are many possibilities. Add to that legal problems related to lawsuits from neighbors if something ever goes wrong. I am not promoting paranoia,
it is called reality. I refused to move to Texas over their glassware laws when it was the last state I had family left in, for years. Just not worth
it. If science is not welcome then neither was I. I have no doubt with all the proper permits and inspections one could have a great lab there. Until
those doing the inspections hand information over to all the other agencies who are not going to go along with your dream of doing chemistry in an
occupied multifamily dwelling. Or even a house in a neighborhood for that matter. This last concern applies to virtually all states.
This subject has been discussed on SCM for over a decade and a very large number of stories exist. Like the old man losing everything he had in his
home lab and all he was doing was private research on synthetic rubber compounds. They even took his very safe 30 years worth of experimental results
and destroyed it all. Then came the endless thousands in legal defense and fines, over a hundred thousand. A man who was a retired industrial research
scientist. Years since I read that story but IIRC, his nightmare began with an electrical fire unrelated to his work, just faulty house wiring. The
fire department put it out then called in police and hazmat teams. Or the guy who had a big vacuum chamber in his garage. A neighbor called on him
because it looked so suspicious. Yeah right. Police come out, realize it was no big deal and quite legit but seeing his chemicals stored properly went
to town on him. Another nightmare story. There are thousands of stories and virtually all start over what is effectively nothing. Less than you might
think begin over some guy making rockets vaporizing a body part.
None of this is intended to talk you out of chemistry, rather to convince you due to the special laws Texas has you run a very great risk of losing
your freedom if you do not obey their laws concerning glassware and it becomes known for whatever reason. If you do the paperwork, at least then the
only trouble you may have is dealing with mindless bureaucrats.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Sigerson
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Thank you for your insight and for taking the time to reply IRC. I read through a thread started by APO in which you posted a fair number of replies.
I tended to agree with your perspectives and as am inclined to the same here.
Let me then present another scenario. Thus far all I have are three small flasks, which again I purchased prior to my finding out about the laws here.
Not claiming ignorance just explaining why I purchased them in the first place. Obviously, not having them greatly limits my ability to do anything
worth while. Have there been any stories of anyone getting in trouble for doing what little chemistry one can without the restricted equipment?
Basically I'd be reduced to beakers and test tubes but it's better than nothing. I acquired two text books as well as RBT's guide to home chemistry
experiments and just the most basic of setups at this point. I mean really the only flask I see not on the list is a volumetric flask. So basically
I'm working with a chemistry set, albeit one better than what's available today but as I'm just starting my education, it's better than nothing. I've
seen enough stories of Texan police to know I shouldn't expect the most ethical or educated perspective. I'm not doing anything wrong and if I avoid
everything on their list, I would imagine they would be hard pressed to disagree or prove otherwise. I haven't even used the flasks yet so if nothing
else, I'll shatter them and be done with it.
Sigh. I'd be lying if I said my spirit wasn't crushed. Was so excited about learning. It really did give me a reason to get up every morning.
Otherwise I'm just working a job, looking for a career and trying to find something else to give my days more meaning. I did speak things over with
my better half and she saw how happy this made me, to finally be in a place in my life where I can study subjects she knows I've been excited to learn
about for years. It's encouraging to hear her support my continuing learning as this affects her just as much as it does me. Better to be happy and
follow my conviction and defend myself if that time ever comes than to succumb to an oppressive piece of legislation. I plan on working on other
subjects eventually, all to compensate from a 2nd rate private school education but Chemistry has been top of my list since I was a child. So again,
thanks and any other input would be appreciated as always.
[Edited on 23-2-2014 by Sigerson]
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IrC
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Quote: Originally posted by Sigerson  | | Sigh. I'd be lying if I said my spirit wasn't crushed. Was so excited about learning. It really did give me a reason to get up every morning.
Otherwise I'm just working a job, looking for a career and trying to find something else to give my days more meaning. So again, thanks and any other
input would be appreciated as always. |
Sounds like your taking my post as reason to give up. This is not what I was trying to convey. Rather, merely pointing out some pitfalls so that you
can be cognizant of the dangers of home chemistry in Texas. Meaning go into to it with eyes wide open doing everything you can to minimize any
possible negative consequences. Like studying a reaction before doing to be aware of things that can go wrong.
Example get the paperwork and permissions but do not build some massive organic lab for them to come out and inspect. Build it up slowly because over
time when they are sure you are not someone to spend all their time focusing on they may not bother you anymore. Just a guess, I really do not know
how they operate since as I said I will never move there because of their mindless laws. As if they do not understand criminals are just as happy
using kitchen glassware to stay off the grid. In effect the laws are useless, ignorant, moronic (feel free to add more terms), and effective at only
one thing. Ruining amateur science. Eliminating from universities the person who might have been the next Einstein or Tesla (feel free to add more
names to this list as well).
[Edited on 2-23-2014 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Sigerson
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Thanks again for your response. I won't be giving up, not by a long shot. I just need to play it smart and in this case smart means safe. Honestly,
this means too much to me to both as an ideal and in application for me to forego it altogether. There's a lot of different layers to all this. As I
mentioned above, for the first time, perhaps ever in my adult life, there's some stability. I have a job I've been at for a couple of years where I
really do make a difference. It's not the career I want but I still do meaningful work everyday. I'm with my future wife. We have a good life here and
it's because of this that I even have the clarity and focus to really dive into studying a subject I've always wanted to learn. But I just told her
how I'd rather live in a cell the rest of my life if I had a lab in there to study and learn. I've had an incredible adventurous life up till now but
now I just want to simplify things and spent this next period in my life feeding a starving brain.
Anyhow, I think what you said is prudent. There's no need for me to have anything even close to a full scale lab. I'm content having a more complete
chemistry set over a lab for the time being and let them have their suspicions satiated and when I'm in a better environment, build it up then.
Besides, I'm really just starting out with chemistry. I'm sure I can learn plenty with what I have thus far. I just hate the idea that I live in a
part of this country that seeks to punish something which by itself is so intrinsically pure in it's intentions. Hence the crushed spirit. But that
also gives me something to overcome. I'm realizing that in many ways it takes a considerable amount of courage to be an amateur chemist, especially if
you haven't had the exposure to working with chemicals in high school or college, especially if you live in Texas. But you can't exhibit courage if
you don't have any concerns or fears to first overcome. Otherwise it's just being foolhardy and blind.
I'm still curious what other legal risks I could potentially face if I don't have anything on the DPS list. Granted I'm in an apartment but if it's
basically a slightly overgrown chemistry set, is there any precedence far as anyone has heard of people getting in trouble for using a chem set in an
apartment? Of course if I cause a fire or some other hazard, that's one thing but if there's never any incident on my end but if somehow the police do
come to find it passively or for unintentional reasons, could there be any real, legal risk of my getting in trouble? Ultimately it won't change
anything. I refuse to allow them to refuse their citizens the right to do hands on learning but I want to know in advance if there's been any other
stories along these lines.
[Edited on 23-2-2014 by Sigerson]
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cyanureeves
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i know for a fact there is at least one popular on line lab supply store that will refuse selling to texas.i hear it is still archived in texas laws
that horse theft can be punishable by hanging and cattle rustling is still done in texas.cattle rustling is also punished pretty hard but i bet no one
will be hanged for stealing a horse.arkansas has a sodomy law and it doesnt stipulate within or outside marriage, men or women yet i doubt clinton
never took the back door.i dont think the rangers will come knockin at your door looking for glass ware BUT and there is always a big butt
somewhere,but if you get caught making drugs then you can best bet you will be charged for unlawfully possessing glassware.show your free texas
spirit and buy your glassware and chemicals and be one with the rest of the country.boy that morning church sermon got me all fired up against evil
and oppression.
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Sigerson
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Yeah, I have to agree. This issue has me fired up in ways I didn't expect. I set out to learn about chemistry when I first began this endeavor and so
far the greater lesson has been the realization of how much of a problem this really is in the U.S. The more technology we develop the less
inquisitive we become about learning the science behind our technology. I won't belabor the point as I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir. After all,
the premise behind this community is finding solidarity with others who are also seeking a remedy to this problem in their own lives.
I'm curious, how many of you have written your congressmen about the laws? Of those of you that did, what came of it if anything? Did anyone get a
response? I want to write my congressman, and I know not to bring politics into this but I'm not sure how confident I can feel writing to Senator Ted
Cruz. How about this, I'll just say it sounds like he has bigger fish to fry. Science education and self-education doesn't seem to be high on his list
of priorities, at least these days if the news is anything to go by anyhow. I can write our other senator or representatives but there's quite a few
to choose from. Going to take some time to research the best representative to write to. For now, I see one possible candidate, Rep. Ralph Hall (R) -
He's on the committee for Energy and Commerce Science, Space, and Technology should any other Texas residents want to write as well. If anyone else
has another suggestion on what actions might or have proven useful, I'm all ears.
http://ralphhall.house.gov/
"Nothing has such power to broaden the mind as the ability to investigate systematically and truly all that comes under thy observation in life." -
Marcus Aurelius
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TheGhostKing
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Mostly I've gone with a pickle jar approach, it works just not with gases.
I seem to have difficulty referencing my hobbies as "safe".
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MrHomeScientist
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I agree with IRC in that these sorts of laws are utterly pointless. The people making drugs and explosives don't care enough to use real lab glassware
- you always hear stories about meth labs using plastic soda bottles, gas cans, etc. Restricting glassware accomplishes nothing at all. I suppose if
you wanted to follow the letter of the law, you too could use pickle jars, plastic bottles, measuring cups, camp stove burners, and kitchen scales.
These are generally just fine for home experimentation. Personally, I like to look professional and have real equipment but if you have to make do,
it's certainly possible.
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Metacelsus
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It's a Texas state law, so writing a federal representative may not help. You could try the governor of Texas.
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WGTR
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Read the law here and decide for yourself:
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.481.htm
http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R...
The law deals more with the furnishing of certain types of glassware than the actual ownership of it. As far as I know
there is no need to register the possession of condensers, flasks, etc. Technically you need a permit to buy, sell, or
otherwise furnish certain types of glassware in the state of Texas, but this obviously doesn't apply if you already own it, or
if you make it for your own use out in the garage. The burden is on the Texas authorities to prove that a law was broken, and
this can be very hard to prove if you keep your mouth shut. It also most likely won't be an issue if you aren't doing something
stupid/illegal in your lab.
The owner of an amateur science store here in Texas told me that he couldn't sell me a condenser without a permit, but I
could buy 1" glass tubing all day long, and make my own. So I did. Go figure.
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Cou
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HOLY ****ING ****!!!!! I JUST CRAPPED MY PANTS! A SCIENCE STORE IN TEXAS???!?!?!? NOW I'VE SEEN EVERYTHING! I THOUGHT I WOULD SEE PIGS FLY BEFORE
THAT!
In all seriousness, I must know where this store is.
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WGTR
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http://www.analyticalsci.com/science/1Table%20of%20Contents....
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Cou
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Dam, san antonio. All the good stuff is far away, probably because of all the drug dealers here
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TheGhostKing
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Now i must search for a chemistry supply store in Oklahoma. 
I seem to have difficulty referencing my hobbies as "safe".
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Texium
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I think you'd probably have a better chance of finding one in Texas rather than Oklahoma.
Anyway though, I live in Austin. I haven't found the need to get any kind of permits, and I agree that it's best to do everything as safely as
possible and not to do anything if it might attract unwanted attention. I've bought a lot of chemicals from hardware stores, and a lot of equipment
and chemicals online, and I haven't been bothered at all by law enforcement. Just don't blow anything up or make illegal stuff, and stay under the
radar.
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