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Author: Subject: Wait a sec...aren't we allowed home labs?!
flyboy
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[*] posted on 1-11-2014 at 19:57
Wait a sec...aren't we allowed home labs?!


hey, wait a second, i'm new to chemistry and don't understand.. if I'm not making illegal drugs or weapons or anything, aren't i allowed to do what ever i want ?

My question actually is sort of grey zone.. can we make legal drugs? IE can we synthesis experimental medications/molecules for our research? what about our own use? If i had shingles and though i had a cure, am i allowed legally to take it?? I had thought the answer was yes, this is how progress is made... at least.. was made..?!

If i start ordering chemicals from my local supplier, should i expect a visit to inspect what I'm doing?! I wouldn't be surprised but didn't think it was an absolute given, after reading some posts here now I think it might be just a matter of when but it will happen eventually...? Well if it does maybe i'll get some publicity and funding :)
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Zephyr
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[*] posted on 1-11-2014 at 20:51


This question is very complicated, and the answer depends mostly on where you are located and the sort of chemistry you are conducting. For instance, if you reside in Texas almost any form of amateur chemistry can be considered intent manufacturing illicit drugs.
Many people have had their labs raided, which you can read about the in the Legal and Societal Issues sub forum.
Things which will decrease you chances of being raided include keeping a lab notebook, maintaining a clean lab where everything is labeled, being knowledgeable about both chemistry and the law, and being friendly with your neighbors:P.




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Amos
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[*] posted on 2-11-2014 at 07:17


Buy as many chemicals as possible in person, using cash. Many common, useful reagents are on watch lists and may make you more suspicious. That being said, I've bought loads of glassware, as well as potassium iodide for making iodine, and haven't run into any trouble. It can be very difficult to gauge where your neighbors factor in on this. If you live in an apartment or other combined housing, I would advise against having a lab at all unless you get permission from a landlord. Be careful about leaving glassware outside where it can be seen, and try not to make too many weird-smelling gases to attract attention.

The question you should be asking is not whether it is legal. People that see you doing chemistry have a high chance of simply assuming what you're doing is illegal. Thus you should make yourself as invisible as possible to avoid trouble.




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chemrox
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[*] posted on 2-11-2014 at 18:12


Everything not mandatory is prohibited in the USA where more people are in prison than anywhere else in the world.
Do be sure and dispose of waste legally.




"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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WGTR
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[*] posted on 2-11-2014 at 18:50


Yes, here in Texas one has to obtain a permit from DPS to transfer ownership of certain types of glassware. There is nothing requiring a permit for simple ownership, as far as I know, or for making your own equipment. The possession of cold medicine and chemistry equipment can be enough to nail you with "intent to manufacture", but this generally doesn't happen unless you act like a cook. There is a chemistry store where I live. After getting the proper approvals from DPS, all sorts of glassware can be purchased from them over-the-counter. School kids do it all the time; the permitting process is pretty routine. I don't think it's a big deal, but then again, I work in a professional lab.

Surprisingly, I don't hear much about Oregon. Sodium, lithium, phosphorous, iodine; the possession of these in elemental form is completely illegal, unless you are a business or a school.

[Edited on 11-3-2014 by WGTR]
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j_sum1
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[*] posted on 2-11-2014 at 18:59


Lithium?? Does this mean you can't buy batteries in Oregon?
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WGTR
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[*] posted on 2-11-2014 at 19:09


http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/475.979
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/475.969
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/475.975
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/475.976

It doesn't look like potassium is mentioned. Yeaayyy!
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j_sum1
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[*] posted on 2-11-2014 at 19:20


Ooh. That was a bit of an oversight then. Have some fun!

It seems to me that these are a bunch of poorly-considered knee-jerk kind of laws. Let's face it: someone who really wants Li for illicit purposes will not hesitate to unpeel a few batteries. Someone who has a genuine interest in the substance is shafted.
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DrMario
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[*] posted on 2-11-2014 at 23:02


Quote: Originally posted by WGTR  
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/475.979
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/475.969
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/475.975
http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/475.976

It doesn't look like potassium is mentioned. Yeaayyy!


Is Oregon particularly draconian in this sense, compared to the other US states, or about the same?
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macckone
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[*] posted on 3-11-2014 at 16:57


I think it varies a lot from state to state in the US.
California has some really weird watch lists that leave you wondering
if drain cleaner is legal.
Colorado you basically have to be caught with iodine, red phosphorous and pseudoephedrine at the same time.
In Texas the way the law is written a coffee pot could be illegal.
The US federal law is a little more clear, in that iodine or red phosphorous in any amount is 'watched' but they have to prove intent to get a conviction.

Side note: under the ATF laws, owning a still with intent to distill alcohol or vinegar without a license is technically illegal but the reality is that they aren't going after home brewers with stills under a couple of gallons.

Other chemicals in some combination can get you in trouble. Manufacturing things that might be considered explosives are also a problem.
And it is different in each state.

We are getting to the point that ignorance of the law probably should be an excuse because the law is too complex to accurately know if you what you are doing is legal.
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[*] posted on 3-11-2014 at 17:48


If you're in Canada, you should be fine if you and the neighbours are chill. The biggest risk is having your work misunderstood, and now long arm of the law can claim your house if they think anything happened. That is probably the scariest possibility. If you do everything on a smaller scale it will also be an enormous improvement...
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[*] posted on 5-11-2014 at 16:26


Quote: Originally posted by Pinkhippo11  
This question is very complicated, and the answer depends mostly on where you are located and the sort of chemistry you are conducting. For instance, if you reside in Texas almost any form of amateur chemistry can be considered intent manufacturing illicit drugs.
Many people have had their labs raided, which you can read about the in the Legal and Societal Issues sub forum.
Things which will decrease you chances of being raided include keeping a lab notebook, maintaining a clean lab where everything is labeled, being knowledgeable about both chemistry and the law, and being friendly with your neighbors:P.

I live in texas. What is the absolute WORST that could happen? I'm 15, could I go to juvie for 4 years?
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Fenir
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[*] posted on 5-11-2014 at 17:38


You could be convicted of a felony for intent to manufacture illicit substances.
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macckone
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[*] posted on 14-11-2014 at 11:59


At 15 you could be tried as an adult in Texas. Given that having glassware without a license is a felony, you could spend a lot more than 4 years and it wouldn't be juvi.
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WGTR
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[*] posted on 14-11-2014 at 13:25


Quote: Originally posted by macckone  
At 15 you could be tried as an adult in Texas. Given that having glassware without a license is a felony, you could spend a lot more than 4 years and it wouldn't be juvi.


Have you seen anywhere in the statute where it says that a license is needed to possess glassware in Texas?

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.481.htm...

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/HS/htm/HS.481.htm...

What I've seen so far applies to transferring ownership of it, as far as I can tell.

It depends on how "furnishing" would be defined, as well as "receiving". A permit would be needed to receive certain types of glassware from out of state sources. If the glassware was received in another state's jurisdiction, and then carried back into Texas by the owner, I'm not sure if there is technically a problem. Also, if an enterprising individual decided to manufacture his or her own condenser, I think that would only be illegal if he was "furnishing" it to himself. I don't think that is what that word means though. I think that "furnishing" applies generally to someone who supplies equipment to someone else.
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macckone
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[*] posted on 14-11-2014 at 19:24


The actual possession does not appear to be covered but transfer appears to cover import and export. In theory you could make it yourself but receiving glassware requires a license so if you have it and it wasn't made by you then you likely have a problem.
I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong on that.
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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[*] posted on 14-11-2014 at 19:48


If you had the glassware before the legal stuff went into effect you're good. (I think.) I suppose you could acquire whatever you wanted as long as no one could prove you didn't have it to begin with.

[Edited on 11-15-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]
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macckone
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[*] posted on 14-11-2014 at 21:11


A 15 year old isn't going to be able to claim they had it before the law went into effect. For that matter neither is a 24 year old.
The law dates to 1989.

[Edited on 15-11-2014 by macckone]
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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[*] posted on 14-11-2014 at 21:25


Err, I'm just saying in general, not speaking for specific ages. And it could still be family property.
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macckone
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[*] posted on 14-11-2014 at 21:44


In Texas they don't have an exception for transfer to family members. I am not sure how they would handle it but I wouldn't
want to be on the receiving end of the judge's decision.
For a 15 year old, you might be able to claim it is dad or mom's
glass since they likely live at the same address it might not
be considered transfer but if you get a bad judge he might
say that the parent needed a license to let the kid use it.
I think that would be bad precedent and I don't know how
many times this law has actually been used but my guess
is that it is generally only invoked when they find a drug lab.
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[*] posted on 19-11-2014 at 13:08


You Found the glassware next to a dumpster (unless you bought it online, in which case it could easily be proven otherwise) and you've been Cleaning it with various substances to make sure it was in great condition for when the Owner comes and asks for it back.

You have no idea of the actual owner, but if they ever come calling, you will be happy to give it back.

In fact, Officer, i thought You were the owner. Here it is. Please sign.




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macckone
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[*] posted on 20-11-2014 at 10:20


Aga, that would sound like BS to a jury even if it were true.
The DA would argue it was transferred when you picked it up
and you don't have a license.
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