blueberry58
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Heating an oil mixture
I am not chemist but MD and must to prepare a lipid selenium compound high bioavailable with the following items.
A mixture of a tri-conjugated fatty acid, (tung or bitter gourd oil) with gray selenium powdered (3% weight) is heated to 230 Celsius degrees for 3
hours with active stirring. When the heat is been applied the mixture must receive an air bubbling to oxidize double bonds before selenium be bound.
I wonder about the proper heat equipment to use, hotplate or mantle with aluminium shell is better to keep 230 C even. I had seen the previous topic
on this subject. Up to 5000 cc.
Being the sample tung oil is needed a reflux?
Somebody had and idea to implement air bubbling?
Thank you.
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Chemosynthesis
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The good news is this is a simple problem that a chemist can help you resolve, and given my experience, I doubt you will have any trouble finding one
at your place of occupation if you are preparing compounds in a biomedical lab.
The bad news is this violates a science madness rule: "On the other extreme, being a professional scientist and a paid researcher does not mean that
you can not have honest amateur interests and participate in the discussions. However, in such case avoid abusing SM for solving problems related to
your job, problems which you are paid to resolve. You can take it as a noble cause to teach what you learned to others who are in need of such
knowledge and your efforts will be much appreciated."
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=19...
With respect, you likely get paid more than most members here unless you are still in residency or finishing a dual degree, and so you should ask a
colleague or mentor. Best of luck.
[Edited on 11-11-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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Dr.Bob
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Not sure if he is doing this specifically for this work, but I understand the theory.
But a simple question about heating an oil would not have received such an answer, and I appreciate people saying why they are doing what they are
doing. I would say that a normal sized hotplate with over 1L of any liquid in an open container (beaker, erlenmeyer) will be hard to control, heat to
230C, or prevent from catching on fire should any of it splash or spill. I would either do it in small batches (< 1L, safer and easy to repeat
after one or two runs), or use a larger mantle and te appropriate glass or aluminum container. But finding a local person to help on such a large
project is a good idea in any case.
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unionised
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I can't help wondering what the purpose of this project is.
Also, do you know how bad organoselenium compounds smell?
How would your neighbours react if you were to boil rotten cabbage for a few hours?
It's also fairly poisonous.
If you are looking for a selenium supplement I'd suggest you look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenomethionine
If you really need it to be oil soluble- as a depot preparation perhaps- then a thioether of this stuff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenocysteine
might work.
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blueberry58
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Thank you for your help.
I know what selenium is, about its toxicity and its smell. This preparation is a totally new way to administer elements incorporated in lipids
developed by a successful researcher called Dr. Emanuel Revici. Pathologic tissues as cancer, inflammations and burns are rich in lipids. When an
element incorporated in a fatty acid is administered, it travels specifically and fastly to these tissues and remains there several days after. Much
more than any other known form of this mineral. Nor sodium selenite, selenimethionine neither selenium from yeast can accomplish this. Gerhard
Schrauzer, professor of chemistry from La Jolla California, one of the first authority in selenium in the world had aknowledged this and the work of
Dr. Revici. He had compared him with Hippocrates, Galeno and Paracelsus. Modern pharmaceutic industry in the new design of molecules applies
techniques developed by Dr. Revici. But above all, I had seen several patients with cancer of breast and colon be cured with selenium lipidic.
One of them with metastasis in the liver.
So I ask for his help in the way of heating the sample. Thank you.
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Chemosynthesis
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I am pretty confident this is work related as selenium supplementation is a recent and newly studied in vivo double blind trial subject.
Unfortunately, despite promising in vitro results, actual patient data shows little statistical benefit, as with so many therapeutic investigations.
Adding someone's name to something as an appeal to authority doesn't make relevant data, as seen with researchers including Luc Montagnier's lab's
work on DNA teleportation, and Linus Pauling's interest in vitamin C as a panacea.
The administration is not the novel concept proposed here, in contrast to the verbiage used; rather drug uptake and compartmentalization of the ligand
moiety is being proposed as a form of crude targeted drug delivery, which is theoretically sound. Additionally, due to the broad variation in both
cancers in general and breast cancer subtypes in particular, there may still be undemonstrated therapeutic use of selenium far outside the scope of
hobby chemistry.
While the roles of lipids in many biological processes are important (eicosanoids, prostaglandins), and there is plenty of evidence of aspects of
lipid disregulation in carcinogenesis and progression (I have some experience in the field), selenium has yet to demonstrate any statistical benefit
in several types of cancer in double blind, controlled studies. Here are several, including notes from the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center,
renowned in the field.
Lipid disregulation in cancer: http://m.dmm.biologists.org/content/6/6/1353.full
MSKCC overview: http://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/herb/selenium
Large clinical trial in prostate cancer, unable to reject null hypothesis and cancelled due to poor outcomes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20882260/?i=5&from=...
Lack of differential patient outcome in leukemia and lymphoma: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25379637/?i=1&from=... Correlative breast cancer study of small population indicating possible link to
selenium deficiency and breast cancer, but data looks weak to draw conclusions from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22736377/
Breast cancer correlation in different small population of homogenous subjects showing very weak (toenail but not hair correlation) correlation with
dietary supplement: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19352569/
Supplemental use despite evidence of chemoprevention: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22985217/?i=10&from...
Without statistically significant results of a high power, large sample, double blind trial controlled with dose-response curves to substantiate
casual effect, I respectfully yet adamantly state that it is absolutely disingenuous to suggest selenium cured a patient's cancer, and inaccurately
portraying the science behind this in a medical setting risks severe ethical or misconduct inquiries. I implore you to be more careful and specific in
your phrasing. Unsubstantiated claims of efficacy are a disservice to medicine and besmirch the entire biomedical community.
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j_sum1
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I for one love this kind of discussion. I learn so much. But I must ask, BB58 why you would ask this on an amateur hobby chem board. If you are
investigating therapies either in vivo or in vitro then you need support and professionalism of a kind that you simply won't find on an online forum.
Heating oil is likely to be the least of your issues. Those in the know around here are likely to be more than obliging. (Great read
chemosynthesis btw.) If it was me however, working in my professional capacity, with what sounds like reasonably high stakes, I
would be wanting harder data and better support than a message board (good as it is).
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BromicAcid
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@Chemosynthesis - Hummm... didn't even know that rule existed. I can see not abusing the forum with posts about your occupation but it's not as if
there is a premium service here that we are trying to get people to pay for. In addition, having been a member of this board from the beginning of
college to now 8 years in professional chemistry I have shared quite a bit of information that I have learned along the way, should I not be engaged
in discussion because of my professional standing? I know, not your rule but still threw me when I read it. In this case, blueberry58 is not a
chemist by training. I would consider this more of him/her going outside their comfort zone as an initiative, not as a prerogative of their
employment.
Back to the original post:
| Quote: | | A mixture of a tri-conjugated fatty acid, (tung or bitter gourd oil) with gray selenium powdered (3% weight) is heated to 230 Celsius degrees for 3
hours with active stirring. When the heat is been applied the mixture must receive an air bubbling to oxidize double bonds before selenium be bound.
|
If you have the money to spend to do this right, here is how I would approach the situation considering your lack of chemical expertise.
I would use a heating mantle because the heating is more uniform and controllable. Choose a stirring method, overhead stirring or magnetic stirring.
If you go with magnetic you can usually stir through a heating mantle though you may need a rare earth magnet on one of those sides (they sell stir
bars with rare earth magnets inside them). Invest in a J-Kem or other temperature controller, these use a thermocouple that is inserted into the pot.
The temperature gives feedback to the heater which switches the heating mantle on or off, you dial in the temperature and the J-Kem will control it.
With regards to bubbling oxygen through the mixture you have to know if water or carbon dioxide (components of 'air') will be detrimental to the
procedure. I have seen 'air' as a reagent before but it is usually of the grade "Bone Dry". Which means the water has been removed, there are also
commercial units that will isolate oxygen or at least enrich the oxygen in air. In a perfect world you would have a cylinder of oxygen or bone dry
air and attach that to a regulator to ensure you have a consistent flow of gas. That would lead into the flask with a sub-surface sparge tube that
you may choose to have a fritted end to increase the surface area for the gas reaction. The flask may also need a reflux condenser to keep volatiles
from escaping. The question then becomes how to vent the apparatus. If your mixture is truly resistant to moisture/CO2 then just leaving it open
would not be a concern for the reaction itself but note that vapors will escape. Comment was made regarding organoselenium compounds which may or may
not contribute to the stench (depends on if they are volatile). So you may have to scrub the gases (remove the odoriferous compounds). Even if your
reaction can tolerate air it is good practice to have a mineral oil bubbler on the setup anyway. Normally this would keep the setup under a slight
nitrogen pressure to keep air from leaking in, but it will also serve to show that there are no plugs, you can watch the bubbles to make sure your
feed is still going in good and that all is well with the world.
Also note that since you are bubbling gas through the system you will sweep out some material. Normally those high molecular weight oils are
considered non-flammable but you're going to have a hot mantle there, you may well be over the flash point. Always be aware of possible flammability
issues.
Read through what I have wrote, look up what you do not know. There is plenty to learn here.
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Chemosynthesis
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Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  | | In addition, having been a member of this board from the beginning of college to now 8 years in professional chemistry I have shared quite a bit of
information that I have learned along the way, should I not be engaged in discussion because of my professional standing? |
No, this is not what I intend to convey, else I would also be prohibited from posting as I have professional and educational experience in synthesis,
though less than many here; if you read the rule in entirety (I posted only a portion), professionals are encouraged to share knowledge, but not
request it if it is something they are paid to resolve. The ability to put schoolwork in Beginnings also mitigates some college/graduate/professional
school questions. (edit: their phrasing "must" belies professional intent, in my opinion, reinforced by claims of seeing patients cured). That said,
you gave him great advice. as did Dr.Bob (whose position I understand as well, as I also value honesty). I respect you as a productive member here, by
the way, not to try to change your view.
That said the poster also did not cite his procedure, which is expected. I suspect it's an unpublished lab protocol, but this should be stated and
does directly apply to work he is paid for. Physicians tend to make above average salaries, and so it is doubly questionable to ask us rather than a
colleague. I suspect neither of us request work help here.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doc...
I have worked with researchers of all kinds of backgrounds (engineering, medicine, pharmacy, sciences), including students, and there should be plenty
of help in a supportive workplace or school in the form of a PI/colleague or mentor/advisor, respectively. I know not all workplaces or academic
environments, sadly, are fostering places, but that is beyond the scope of the forum. I do truly wish the OP great success and strongly desire the
advancement of medicine, despite severe misgivings on the claims of efficacy in apparent treatment of patients, which may be misleading.
And yeah, I am extremely stringent and probably appear OCD/autistic in my fervor for rules, I will state that just in case anyone is wondering if I am
aware.
(Also, thanks, j_sum. Flattered.).
[Edited on 12-11-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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blueberry58
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Thank you Robert:
These characteristics were what I thought were needed. The reflux condenser its critical too.
Thank you to Dr. Bob. Doing in small batches is a good idea at first.
Sorry for having disturbed the forum rules.
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Chemosynthesis
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I know this is probably inflammatory, but I feel obligated to post it anyway. If I'm in the wrong I'll be corrected, but it's against my good
conscience to allow medical disinformation to be spread with deceptive omission.
For anyone interested in Dr. Revici, he's hardly a successful researcher if you take into account that he had his license to practice medicine revoked
after his treatment results were not found repeatable by other researchers (a sign of success), and had to be stopped in repeat attempts for humane
reasons:
http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/com...
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