blueberry58
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Solvent extraction of fatty acids
I'm looking for a protocol to extract fatty acids and unsaponifiable fraction from cod liver oil. Not the esterified fraction. In an abstract on the
subject, the author uses KOH (10%), ethanol, an ether and tartaric acid or some other acid.
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forgottenpassword
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The protocol you mention seems to be DOING a saponification as the first step. You would then be extracting the saponified products, RATHER THAN the
"unsaponifiable fraction". Are you sure that this is what you want?
[Edited on 4-12-2014 by forgottenpassword]
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Nicodem
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Thread Moved
4-12-2014 at 07:58 |
Chemosynthesis
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I understand this is probably for your unconventional, experimental medical techniques and that you are not a scientist, but you should at least post
the abstract or a citation for us when referring to it. That's expected on the forum despite being oriented towards hobby pursuit. I would prefer
people cite my work when discussing it, even online, as my efforts toward publication weren't trivial to me.
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Darkstar
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What are you trying to do, exactly? Are you trying to extract the already-free fatty acids and unsaponifiable components, leaving the esterified fatty
acids behind? Or are you trying to extract both the existing free fatty acids as well as the esterified ones (but in the form of free fatty acids)?
Using KOH would give you potassium salts of both the existing free fatty acids as well as the ones that were previously bound to glycerine molecules
in the form of triglycerides. Reacting these salts with an acid would then give you back the fatty acids.
[Edited on 4-12-2014 by Darkstar]
[Edited on 4-12-2014 by Darkstar]
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blueberry58
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I am not a scientist. I am a MD, had worked for 31 years at social security. My practical experience on chemistry is very limited. This is not hobby.
Its part of a medical research project. Free fatty acids are part of our needed resources. What I am looking for is extracting free fatty acids from
cod liver oil. I understand that repeated saponifications to esterified lipid fractions appearing in cenapse, (bound to other stuff) can yield free
fatty acids. (with free carboxilic group). Maybe I am not expressing clearly. This is the same what you say @Darkstar. I need a practical protocol to
do it.
Choosing suited solvents in the process you can have unsaponifiable fraction too, I need it.
This information is summarized in this link. (Chapter 6, Note 8a. Solvent Fractionation Of The Lipidic Constituents)
http://chestofbooks.com/health/disease/cancer/Emanuel-Revici...
Thank you
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forgottenpassword
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Coming onto an amateur chemistry website to request consultancy for work that you are being PAID for is very poor form. If you are willing to offer a
financial recompense for people's time and effort, then by all means continue to seek help here. Your question is so poorly expressed that I expect
very few would waste their time trying to fathom what it is you are trying to extract. If you are a professional researcher, why don't you do some
research using google?
[Edited on 4-12-2014 by forgottenpassword]
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Chemosynthesis
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So, basically you expect us to do your work for you, for free yet again. You ask for a lot of help here without really contributing in return or
expressing interest in the purpose of the forum. I know my opinion is solely my own, but I find that somewhat abusive of the forum, as someone
involved in medical research myself. I have already cited a rule that admonishes against using the forum for personal work. Perhaps chemical forum,
the site where you cross post every single thread you make (possibly against sciencemadness thread duplication rules), doesn't have this rule, but
this forum was made for hobby science and I think you should respect that. You clearly refuse to take the time to even post in the proper sub forum on
this site. If a moderator or admin disagrees, then I will recant and offer a full apology... but my view is that not only are you disrespecting the
forum and every member in it, but that you are clearly not qualified to be on your research project and are taking space and possibly funding from
someone more qualified, regardless of degree or training.
Why should we assist you when you are likely to gain both in financial and reputational terms from what would largely be our intellectual endeavors?
I have worked with doctorates of all kinds of fields, including engineering in the past, sciences, and clinical specialties. Their specialties didn't
excuse them from initially citing referenced works, which you have done at least twice now, nor did their educations enable them to get a free
differential diagnosis from an MD, medication advice from a PharmD, publication from a PhD, etc. while profiting on their behalf.
If I were part of a partnered medical practice with a different physician (assume I am a PA, NP, clinical PhD, or PharmD), but asked you to give a
free ddx for a patient of mine so that I may take credit, would you not be insulted? Now consider if I called you at home to do so, or showed up at a
hobby of yours (assuming you still have time for them).
I did a cursory search using Google (not the scholar version) and found two solvents that I expected in preliminary extractions of such non-polar
fatty acid esters. Surely you can do the same. Why on earth you would expect us to find or develop one for you sans recognition, when you would need
to cite the author in publication, is beyond me.
[Edited on 5-12-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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phlogiston
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While I fully agree with the views expressed above, I have had to supervise many MD students in a biochemistry lab and have come to appreciate that
the training they receive does not at all prepare them for biochemical (or any other kind of) lab work. It is not a training to become a scientist,
they just learn how to diagnose and treat patients efficiently.
I have often used a method to extract free fatty acids with some specificity (not phospholipids, CoA-esters, etc). Briefly, acidify your sample with
acetic acid to pH 4, load it on a C18 column (pre-activate with methanol), wash and then elute it with chloroform. If you want to analyse only free
fatty acids, it is important that you do not allow enzymatic hydrolysis of the esterified fatty acids to take place. Keep the sample ice-cold at all
times, perhaps deproteinise it or add suitable inhibitors and work quickly.
Then analyse the fatty acids by whatever means available to you. The most common method is esterification with methanol followed by GC-MS. I leave it
up to you to find detailed protocols.
[Edited on 5-12-2014 by phlogiston]
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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forgottenpassword
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It is not at all just your own opinion. By treating people as his personal unpaid researchers he is treating us all as fools. It is something that one
might expect from a young man, but it is certainly unbecoming of someone who claims to have 31 years of experience in the workplace. It is absolutely
an abuse of the forum. People contribute here on the understanding that they are helping people who are pursuing science for their own interest and
enjoyment. If someone requests help here because they see a bunch of idiots who are willing to work for free, whilst he gets paid for it, then it is
simply intolerable to offer any further assistance.
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blueberry58
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@Chemosynthesis & @ForgottenPassword:
In 1983, being a MD, some people from a nursing home here in Cali Colombia, asked me to offer free medical service in a center called Ancianato Mi
Casa. When I went I saw that there were about 15 doctors who provided free medical service. I managed elder patients there for three years and since
then I have worked on several other sites. 3 days a week half time. Schools of family medicine, homeopathy, acupuncture (Nei-Jing School of Chinese
Medicine), where I had been have established free medical service for many years in several countries.
This does not mean that you or anyone else in the forum have to work for free, but your world and your heart are very small and you are proud of it.
Most MDs of my generation (graduated in 1981) in Colombia earn less than 1200 dollars per month. Regarding earnings where you live is much more
important that what you do. Most people in the forum earn more money than me.
If you read the work of Dr. Revici will know that after his death in 1993 nobody works in this field and no sponsor will agree to support such a
project. I had paid every dollar needed with no income at all. I translated this book to spanish (772 pgs) and I return this rights to Mrs Eva Avram
the owner of Dr. Revici rights although some people here in Cali want to print this book for business. I have assumed this job as a compromise with
Dr. Revici. Was a shame the treatment they received when he was alive in US. Some other people in US had undertaken such a decission. Two
hematooncologist from Cali are working in this field facing many troubles for the stablishment and being in danger to lose hers licences. For no money
until now.
His book has been considered "The Most Important Book in 3,000 Years of Medicine"
www.healthwakeup.co.za
Everyone can get it and read it. Its the only real medicine chemistry based.
Congratulations @phlogiston. You see beyond simple words. I knew that I had to low pH and temperature. Chloroform and methanol are the solvents most
used. I read the article on the subject from Hara and Radin using hexane and isopropanolol. Less toxic solvents. Maybe be possible to do it in another
simpler glasware instead of chromatography.
Thank you @phlogiston
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blueberry58
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@Chemosynthesis & @ForgottenPassword:
In 1983, being a MD, some people from a nursing home here in Cali Colombia, asked me to offer free medical service in a center called Ancianato Mi
Casa. When I went I saw that there were about 15 doctors who provided free medical service. I managed elder patients there for three years and since
then I have worked on several other sites. 3 days a week half time. Schools of family medicine, homeopathy, acupuncture (Nei-Jing School of Chinese
Medicine), where I had been have established free medical service for many years in several countries.
This does not mean that you or anyone else in the forum have to work for free, but your world and your heart are very small and you are proud of it.
Most MDs of my generation (graduated in 1981) in Colombia earn less than 1200 dollars per month. Regarding earnings where you live is much more
important that what you do. Most people in the forum earn more money than me.
If you read the work of Dr. Revici will know that after his death in 1993 nobody works in this field and no sponsor will agree to support such a
project. I had paid every dollar needed with no income at all. I translated this book to spanish (772 pgs) and I return this rights to Mrs Eva Avram
the owner of Dr. Revici rights although some people here in Cali want to print this book for business. I have assumed this job as a compromise with
Dr. Revici. Was a shame the treatment they received when he was alive in US. Some other people in US had undertaken such a decission. Two
hematooncologist from Cali are working in this field facing many troubles for the stablishment and being in danger to lose hers licences. For no money
until now.
His book has been considered "The Most Important Book in 3,000 Years of Medicine"
www.healthwakeup.co.za
Everyone can get it and read it. Its the only real medicine chemistry based.
Congratulations @phlogiston. You see beyond simple words. I knew that I had to low pH and temperature. Chloroform and methanol are the solvents most
used. I read the article on the subject from Hara and Radin using hexane and isopropanolol. Less toxic solvents. Maybe be possible to do it in another
simpler glasware instead of chromatography.
Thank you @phlogiston
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forgottenpassword
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Quote: Originally posted by blueberry58  | | This does not mean that you or anyone else in the forum have to work for free, but your world and your heart are very small and you are proud of it.
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Sir, you twist the facts to make yourself the hero! You ARE being paid for THIS work, are you not?
As you can see from BOTH mine and Chemosynthesis's posting history, we do NOTHING BUT help others: for free. The problem is with helping someone who
IS being PAID.
If you ARE working on this project at no cost, then by all means correct me, and I shall apologise. That this research is for 'medical' purposes makes
no difference whatsoever. Doctors assume that they are God's gift to humanity, but historically they have done as much harm as they have done good.
By all means, act according to you conscience. I shall act according to mine, and if they are in conflict then let us not pursue it further.
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blueberry58
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I do not receive any money at all for this work. The few people who work supporting the work of Dr. Revici we do exclusively by sympathy towards his
work and his person. Nobody sponsor this. You can check by google who sells these drugs or who provides this medical service. There's just someone
selling a new version of his book.
www.healthwakeup.co.za
My spanish translation is free to read. Dr Elena Avram has the rights to print it.
http://download1643.mediafire.com/3w6t4twv88rg/zzfxwx5jaza6x...
Doctors assume that they are God's gift to humanity, but historically they have done as much harm as they have done good.
You are right. There are many of us who live ashamed of the medicine. So the medical profession is divided. So there are other medical disciplines
with another anthropological basis.
The problem is with helping someone who IS being PAID.
I learnt another thing. The problem is with helping someone if I can do it, whatever he or she earn. This is not my bussiness.
Well, I would to speak of solvents if still there are someone would like.
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blueberry58
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I do not receive any money at all for this work. The few people who work supporting the work of Dr. Revici we do exclusively by sympathy towards his
work and his person. Nobody sponsor this. You can check by google who sells these drugs or who provides this medical service. There's just someone
selling a new version of his book.
www.healthwakeup.co.za
My spanish translation is free to read. Dr Elena Avram has the rights to print it.
http://download1643.mediafire.com/3w6t4twv88rg/zzfxwx5jaza6x...
Doctors assume that they are God's gift to humanity, but historically they have done as much harm as they have done good.
You are right. There are many of us who live ashamed of the medicine. So the medical profession is divided. So there are other medical disciplines
with another anthropological basis.
The problem is with helping someone who IS being PAID.
I learnt another thing. The problem is with helping someone if I can do it, whatever he or she earn. This is not my bussiness.
Well, I would to speak of solvents if still there are someone would like.
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forgottenpassword
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As you might imagine, there ARE those who would seek to exploit the knowledge and resources that those who post here have access to for their own
selfish ends. In particular I have seen numerous Indian or Chinese members who ask bluntly for syntheses which they will then exploit simply for
commercial gain. If that is not the case with you, then I apologise for assuming that it is. Perhaps you would differ, but I personally have no
interest in helping such people. They have no interest in science, this website, or others; except to exploit it as a 'resource' for their own
monetary gain. I'm sorry that I have contributed to detracting from your question, and the answer to your question. However, I feel it is no bad thing
that your position and intentions are made plain, because others have, like me, assumed that you were simply using this site, and the effort of its
members, for your own personal gain. It is now clear that that is not the case, so perhaps your requests will be met with more assistance in the
future.
To make amends, I shall look into your problem to the best of my ability, and see if I can find some papers that may assist you.
[Well, I read Chemosynthesis's assessment and now I'm confused! Having said I'll help, I'll help. I'm not averse to vibrational healing in a shamanic
context, though!]
Do these papers help you? '117-118' is perhaps the one you refer to in your first post; and the one perhaps most suited to your needs?
Attachment: 477-484.pdf (136kB)
This file has been downloaded 275 times
Attachment: 117-118.pdf (161kB)
This file has been downloaded 307 times
[Edited on 5-12-2014 by forgottenpassword]
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Chemosynthesis
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| Quote: Originally posted by blueberry58 |
This does not mean that you or anyone else in the forum have to work for free, but your world and your heart are very small and you are proud of it.
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This is very insensitive. You have no idea what kind of medical work I do pro bono, nor my professional background, charitable contributions, or
worldview. If you want to correct where I have a misunderstanding, you are free to, but this is a HOBBY forum which you want to assist you with what
is a complete sham:
Ex. "Quantec® distance vibrational healing," "Negative ions at home," Homeopathy, etc.
1. Yes, anyone can "get" (purchase) the book. Advertizing it as some kind of landmark based solely on an unspecified passive tense "consider[ation]"
is ludicrous and not the kind of claims this forum requests in the forum guidelines. You need to keep claims to those you can cite. See 5 and 6 again,
as I have said this before.
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=19...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19143
2. That this proposed treatment is "the only real medicine chemistry based" is a patent lie, or at least a falsehood. Medicinal chemistry and
pharmacology, both underpinnings of modern medicine, are very chemically based despite the shift towards system biology in the latter.
| Quote: Originally posted by blueberry58 |
Doctors assume that they are God's gift to humanity, but historically they have done as much harm as they have done good.
|
How are you quantifying this? You are attacking your own career without any evidence of medicine doing more harm than it has good in the world. So,
the eradication of smallpox and the diminishment of polio, development of antibiotics, the current HIV treatments on the market, etc. etc. ad nauseum
is somehow offset by malpractice? I think that's ridiculous. In science and logic, if you make the claim, you need to support it. That's especially
how this forum works if you read the FAQ, but then again, you seem to have repeatedly have ignored inconvenient rules here. And you can claim your
salary is a meager 1200 a month (irrelevant), but that is twice your average national salary for Colombia, assuming this is where you are located:
http://colombiareports.co/colombias-average-salary-lower-tha...
If you want to whine about other nationalities having higher incomes, which is irrelevant, take into account the cost of living and national salary
averages. You make double your average countryman. Perhaps your investments were squandered, and you should let someone more qualified perform the
research more efficiently, as you admit you are not post-doctorally/fellowship trained nor educated in research. Why you only now claim not to get
paid for this, when the real issue is profit (you will profit from this in terms of exclusivity, patient gathering, acclaim, will you not?) is
dubious. You should have been open about it at the beginning when I questioned you previously if this is true. How can a physician who claims to have
a cure for cancer not profit from our free labor?
You or someone else DO expect to get paid for this, as there is a "VirtueMart Shopping Cart" on the site you linked to. Anyone can publish a book, but
evidence based medicine, and modern science, is supposed to rely on peer reviewed studies with statistics to support medical claims. How come you
can't link to any of these to counter my cited studies on your claims of selenium? https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=45...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=45086&...
I know any charity has to cover its costs, but you are apparently asking people to pay for shams including completely unsupported garbage with zero
scientific basis instead of demonstrated efficacious treatments. What does this say about your heart?
You have an ethical obligation to assist with your patients, and I assume you took an oath for them wherever you practice. If you can substantiate
with statistically valid peer review that this works, or your completely unsubstantiated selenium treatments (which you claim cures cancer without any
substantiation or evidence, and I gave unbiased background studies on), I will apologize and integrate the new information... but you are taking
resources from valid scientists who, for example know the difference between administration and targeting (some of them MDs), and potentially offering
false hope to patients who could get substantiated ("proven") treatment. You claimed selenium cured patients' cancer. You never provided evidence
backing this up. This kind of behavior is detrimental to both quality of care and patient outcome.
And yes, people like me will call you on it.
[Edited on 5-12-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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Bert
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Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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Everyone:
Let us restrict our posting to chemistry, science and engineering- Preferably related to the original post's premise.
I regret not looking in previously, my bad!
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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aga
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Woo ! A proper Doctor !
Disregarding all of the above Selenium nonsense, would you happen to know if any of John Beard's work was followed up ?
Trophoblastic Theory/Trypsin Treatments :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Beard_%28embryologist%29
ISTR that a Dr Carrera made a business out of it in Mexico in the '70s, and that some American Doctor was hounded by the FDA for prescribing &
administering cancer treatments based on the theories.
Both claimed incredible 'improvement' rates, although i guess they would.
Interestingly the American Dr (who's name escapes me) never claimed 'cure' rather 'indefinite remission' for certain cancer types.
[Edited on 5-12-2014 by aga]
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blueberry58
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Well done @Bert. My concern are solvents and pH modulating agents for extracting free fatty acids.
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forgottenpassword
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Why not concern yourself with the papers I provided, then; and tell me if that is what you were looking for? So far I see 0 downloads! Makes me feel
like I've wasted my time, just a little bit. 
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Chemosynthesis
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Presumably this still holds you accountable to the guidelines of the forum, which you continue violating with your posting in double
posting.
pH modulating agents? You mean acids and bases, perhaps with a buffer? Phlogiston gave you good advice, and forgottenpassword has taken the time to
upload articles for you. How much hand holding do you need?
| Quote: Originally posted by forgottenpassword | | Why not concern yourself with the papers I provided, then; and tell me if that is what you were looking for? So far I see 0 downloads! Makes me feel
like I've wasted my time, just a little bit. |
Blueberry58 has a problem with answering simple questions even on chemicalforum: http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=77187.0
blueberry58 this is me trying to be helpful... but you need to answer questions and use proper nomenclature when asked. What do you
want from your "unsaponifiable fraction?" Cell membrane from the homogenate? Glycerol? Phospholipids? Various length unsaponified free fatty
carboxylic acids that weren't originally concentrated? I am not intending this as an insult, but it is especially our prerogative to ask you what your
intended use is because you advertise yourself as not being qualified to determine purity standards for experimentation or clinical use. That is not
an attack, but a fact. For example, are you controlling for sphingolipids, which are implicated in cancer signaling? Certainly not without
chromatography.
Medical chemistry requires very high standards for purity. This is not something you can do without trained personnel and adequate equipment. If you
refuse to answer questions about solvent restrictions (chemicalforums), refuse to use the advice we give you about ion separation or purification of
free fatty acids, or are incapable of utilizing it, don't direct your ire at me for being sceptical as a good scientist often is. That is just me
holding you to the same standard I am held to in my country. If you wish to perform science, you should get used to it.
| Quote: Originally posted by Bert | Everyone:
Let us restrict our posting to chemistry, science and engineering- Preferably related to the original post's premise.
I regret not looking in previously, my bad! |
Bert, I am not sure if you would prefer me to PM you (if so, please let me know and I will adjust), but I was under the distinct impression that
discussion of pharmacology was applicable to the forum from both Nicodem and Polverone. This was in contrast to my original opinion, and I still have
some reservations about scope, but I can find relevant posts if you need, but want to point out that blueberry58 is initiating the medical claims
(treatment curing cancer and having the only chemical based medicine or whatever, which is complete malpractice to suggest), so I felt it was fair
game. I apologize and will desist if you consider discussing analyzing the validity of medical claims, especially efficacy, as outside the scope of
the forum. I wasn't trying to be inflammatory, nor incite ad hominem attacks. I want to remain within the forum guidelines, and if I am out line, just
let me know.
[Edited on 5-12-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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blueberry58
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@ForgottenPassword thank you for the papers. This is what I`m searching. Sorry for the delay in review it. One question. What is your field of work?
@Chemosynthesis. You are a very sick individual. I have not seen anyone so envious, twisted, false and intolerant like you. I will not bother reading
your garbage. You have every piece of the profile to incubate a cancer.
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Chemosynthesis
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| Quote: Originally posted by blueberry58 | | @Chemosynthesis. You are a very sick individual. I have not seen anyone so envious, twisted, false and intolerant like you. I will not bother reading
your garbage. You have every piece of the profile to incubate a cancer. |
You are continuing to be inflammatory. Maybe you will find the forum guidelines helpful as you must not be paying attention to point 9:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whiser/viewthread.php?tid=191...
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=19143
I have attempted to assist you in previous threads, yet you call me sick. Is that your professional medical diagnosis as a psychiatrist now? I
wouldn't be surprised given what your level of medical sophistication appears to be, asking a hobby forum to devise treatment protocols for you....
Honestly, if I likely make more money than you and am clearly more versed in biomedical sciences, and can conduct legitimate medical research, what
could I possibly envy of yours? You know nothing about me, and that is how I prefer it. I don't need to go hide behind my education because facts
speak for themselves. That is how science and clinical trials are evaluated. You are the one elevating your post from hobbyism to medical research.
Expect appropriate questioning. Medical schools I am very familiar with don't treat students, residents or post-docs any nicer than I, and in fact,
most people consider me very polite in such circles, even with people below me in ranking, as long as they intellectually honest. Nowhere was I
purposefully attempting to insult you, but rather elucidate. You are the one insulting now multiple times. What does this say about you?
I am asking legitimate questions you refuse to answer. They are directly applicable to the science of what you claim to want and no longer fixated on
your abuse of the forum and myself. I am not the only person asking what "unsaponifiable fraction" means. This is a valid question. Asking why/if
chromatography or solvents are forbidden is a valid question. All fatty acids are saponifiable, and we are trying to determine what you mean while
addressing what seem to be very real deficits in your abilities. If you are using these as unsanctioned medical treatments, how can ensure
lipoproteins and organelles don't make their way into your extract and cause an immune response in a patient? How can you know the specific chemical
compound(s) showing some effect (you claim this 'the only chemical based...')? What about steroids? You can't even give specific details of the
substances you want to extract, but vagaries. It's legitimate to request more information, regardless of your sensitivities to inquiry.
It's a shame you refuse to clarify what you mean, and prefer to cast aspersions against medicine and people who will challenge your unfounded quackery
which may harm or distract. Hopefully you won't harm any patients with your advertising, strange notions of carcinogenesis (I use patient genomic
assays for that), and refusal to back up claims of cures. May you educate yourself and be held to a higher standard in the future, for everyone's
benefit.
[Edited on 6-12-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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Bert
Super Administrator
Posts: 2821
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".
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This thread will now be locked until everyone cools down.
Sorry, everyone. PM me if you want it re-opened...
Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:
1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it
that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).
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Bert
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Thread Closed
5-12-2014 at 17:15 |
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