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NEMO-Chemistry
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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 07:20
New information For UK chemists


This is not speculation, nor is this scare mongering. I have been on the phone to a large chemical supplier who has given me a great deal of information.

Apparently Acetone and 30-40 other common chems like Formaldehyde are either now on, or going on the poisons list next year.

However since June of this year, ALL chemical suppliers have been sending customer order lists to the police. These lists contain all transaction details for around 60 chemicals. The list includes Acetone,Iodine, hydrogen peroxide (12%) etc etc.

The point is the list they are ALL sending to the police, contains chemicals that are not officially controlled, apparently this has become a requirement in order to smooth commerce for the company.

So basically any that refused found it hard to trade. This isnt made up, this was information given to me from a Director of a chemical company, he was genuinely trying to help me out when ordering.

I tried to order Acetone and 12% hydroxide, while not controlled at all, he advised against it. He told me that in conjunction with some other chemicals i had ordered recently, it would likely flag me as a person of possible interest.

He also knows my area, being rural the police dont get much excitement, so i would be ideal fun early one morning (his words).

I am 17 1/2 now, he advised to start a Limited (incorporated company), that does research work. I said i did this as a hobby, he remarked many people who do gold recovery as a hobby have now registered businesses.

So looks like I will go this route, not sure if its worth it, after all it will cost to run a business, especially one that isnt selling anything!!!

BTW Sodium Hydroxide is now, or will be in Jan (cant remember) A class 2 poison and restricted. Poor old soap hobby!

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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 07:52


Rather than edit i decided to do an update.
Since writing the above I thought about everything, then decided I am sick oh hiding in shadows. I am fed up feeling like i am buying anal toys every time i order Acetone, so I called Police Scotland for advice.

They are getting a local inspector (police inspector) to call me tonight, i have asked for contact after 11pm. To cut a long story short, the advice i have had so far is the following.

Discuss what I am doing with the inspector, invite them around to take a look at my lab. Allow them access now and register as a company, they will advise me on anything they feel would flag me up to them. So that is exactly what I am going to do!

Part of me has the fight club mentality (say nothing, admit nothing), but finding out some details about another member here, has made me change my mind. I have nothing to hide, i have spent alot recently getting my lab in shape.

Ok its a hobby, but although i wont be trading as such, it makes sense to do everything as professional as i can.

Further information, while the person i spoke to wasnt sure about some things, they did confirm the following....
Yes chemical companies do supply a weekly list to there local police, they wouldnt say which chemicals exactly, but i have been told that sales of hydrochloric acid etc are watched now, and rules for purchase are likely to change.

This looks like it will get complicated, i dont want time inside so I am going to go the pro route and see what happens, i will update any FACTS i find out. I wont speculate in this thread, just post what I get told, or rather what i am allowed to tell. Something tells me they wont be the same thing!

So lets see exactly what is the best way to practice chemistry in the UK, anyone else in the UK who would like to do things properly, feel free to ask questions. I will put these forward when i get my visit. Thx to Bert for kinda spurring me to do things correctly.

I figure if we want to do chemistry then we are going to have to comply and co operate, if one of us (me) acts as a Guinea pig, then it shouldnt be so bad for others. Pyro stuff i havnt decided what to do yet, cant hurt to discuss it as i dont have anything really pyro yet anyway. Keep in mind many more chemicals are watched and reported than you realize.

That is probally the biggest shock to me of the day, I didnt realize that everyone who uses any kind of legit source is automatically passed on even for non officially watched chemicals. I shouldnt be surprised though, look at the last year in the UK...... Makes sense they are doing this i guess, so i want to be on the right side. I want the visits at a time i know about in advance, i want the visits without the sirens and riot gear and all the vans!

So lets see what happens
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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 08:21


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

To cut a long story short, the advice i have had so far is the following.

Discuss what I am doing with the inspector, invite them around to take a look at my lab. Allow them access now and register as a company, they will advise me on anything they feel would flag me up to them. So that is exactly what I am going to do!



Good luck. I would say that being as open an honest as possible would be the way to go - You are doing nothing illegal (I presume) so don't hide it. Although - I have never had a home lab so I am speculating, but I do not see how you could be in trouble for having a home lab if it isn't being used to make explosives or drugs. If you DO make explosives for fun then I might hide that fact, lol.

QUESTION: Acetone is going on the poisons list? Has there been some new studies done under REACH or something - I wasn't aware it was that poisonous... although I think it can be an accumulative poison if it builds in the kidneys or something... I'll have to look it up again.




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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 09:24


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  


However since June of this year, ALL chemical suppliers have been sending customer order lists to the police. These lists contain all transaction details for around 60 chemicals. The list includes Acetone,Iodine, hydrogen peroxide (12%) etc etc.

I tried to order Acetone and 12% hydroxide, while not controlled at all, he advised against it. He told me that in conjunction with some other chemicals i had ordered recently, it would likely flag me as a person of possible interest.

BTW Sodium Hydroxide is now, or will be in Jan (cant remember) A class 2 poison and restricted. Poor old soap hobby!


This is sad. Europe's spate of bombings has put their governments into Orwellian mode.

Although there is nothing like this in the US (that I know of) I have always looked at the events in Europe as an ominous indicator of what will happen in the US at some point. It depends on how intimidated the citizenry becomes due to bombings. So far, we have had very few on a per capita basis. Nobody talks about bombings or drug use where I live.

If I want NaOH, acetone, muriatic acid etc I just go down to Ace hardware and buy all I want, cash, no questions asked.

I recently ordered a pound of P2O5 from Skylighter, no questions asked.





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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 09:38


Quote: Originally posted by DrP  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

To cut a long story short, the advice i have had so far is the following.

Discuss what I am doing with the inspector, invite them around to take a look at my lab. Allow them access now and register as a company, they will advise me on anything they feel would flag me up to them. So that is exactly what I am going to do!



Good luck. I would say that being as open an honest as possible would be the way to go - You are doing nothing illegal (I presume) so don't hide it. Although - I have never had a home lab so I am speculating, but I do not see how you could be in trouble for having a home lab if it isn't being used to make explosives or drugs. If you DO make explosives for fun then I might hide that fact, lol.

QUESTION: Acetone is going on the poisons list? Has there been some new studies done under REACH or something - I wasn't aware it was that poisonous... although I think it can be an accumulative poison if it builds in the kidneys or something... I'll have to look it up again.


Its slightly unclear if its already class 2 or going to be class 2, there is an extensive list. The reason isnt because its a poison as such, the reason is simple to track ALL chemicals that could/might be used for bad purposes.

While we all know this isnt going to work, the Gov is trying to fight terrorism the best they can, we moan they dont protect, we moan they are invasive.

I suspect they are profiling heavily, or i would have had a visit already. But the point is considering what one member is in prison for.....

It makes sense we stop trying to think out 500ml of Acetone wont be of interest, ironically i have been told small amounts attract the most interest.

I suppose the thinking is, why would a terrorist order 100 ltrs of Acetone to make a bomb? Well TBH he wouldnt would he!
Most order 500ml - 10 ltr.

Bang in the middle of what most of us order, so we naturally attract attention. To me it makes sense that most of us in the UK are already flagged to some degree, how much more we need to do to get a uncalled for visit i dont know.
I think if you have certain surnames etc your more likely than others, lets be honest how would you start to track bad intent?

So personally I am going to see how this all works out, worse case scenario I loose £12 for starting a company, i get all my chems and equipment taken away.

But i dont care, my main concern is i dont ruin my life with a prison sentence, its no longer a case of not doing bad things, alot of it i suspect we are unaware we are doint it wrong, so lets find out! Lets be pro active and actually make an effort to be legal!

I am not suggesting we all do this, i am suggesting I pass on the info, then once we know the facts from that, each can decide if they are going to use the info or not.
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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 13:10


Sounds like a good course of action.
You make enough soap to look like a business. Who knows: with a crackdown on KOH your artisan soap made legally may suddenly become extremely profitable.
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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 13:23


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  


Although there is nothing like this in the US (that I know of)



You know about Texas' legendary views on a 3 neck flask, don't you?
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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 14:01


It is remarkable that there are such large differences between different EU-countries.

I live in NL and regularly order online from dutch or german suppliers. Some chemicals indeed are very hard to find (NH4NO3, NaClO4, KClO4, KClO3, NaClO3, HNO3, H2O2 (> 10%), and increasingly so also NaNO3 and KNO3), but most other chemicals still can be purchased without too much hassle, also stuff like HClO4 (60%), SO2Cl(OH), H3PO4 (98%), red P, I2. Another class of chemicals which are hard to find are inorganic acyl chlorides, like PCl5, POCl3, PCl3, SOCl2. There is no official restriction on these (except in very large quantities, because they can be used as chemical warfare agent precursors), but these are not sold to individuals because of their very risky nature and extreme corrosiveness. Most companies do not want to run the risk of selling these to possibly unknowing people and having reports of accidents with these.

Stuff like acetone, solid NaOH, diethyl ether, HCl (10% and 30%) are still OTC over here and can be purchased without any issues. Concentrated H2SO4 becomes more difficult, some companies want a declaration of use, but it still is sold to individuals more or less OTC.

I have the impression that in the Netherlands the bulk cheap chemicals which can be used for explosives are restricted severely, but that much more expensive, or chemicals one step further away from a bomb still are available. So, KClO4 as a bulk oxidizer is not allowed anymore, but the expensive 60% HClO4 (EUR 50 per liter or so) still is. Terrorists will need a lot of money and a lot of preprocessing if they want to use that chemical for an explosive device. With bulk stuff like NH4NO3 they could make a powerful bomb for EUR 1000 or so, simply by mixing a few compounds. If they want the same with e.g. HClO4 as a basis for making KClO4, then they would need appr. EUR 50000 for a bomb of similar strength and a lot of work to convert the hundreds of liters of HClO4 to dried and finely powdered KClO4 before it can be mixed into a bomb.

But of course, also here in NL things are changing. As soon as I have the impression that I really cannot safely do chemistry experiments anymore without fear of the police running into my house, then I quit. Right now I do not store certain chemicals anymore (one of them is HNO3), but if I need them, I make them in small quantities to be used up quickly. I have a small stock of 90% HNO3 (I think it's around 40 ml), which I made myself and with my microscale experiments this goes a long way. If this is nearly used up I may make a little more and use that again, but I do not store a few liters of HNO3 anymore. It is not allowed anymore. The same is true for KClO3. I made some by means of electrolysis (see my webpage) and I still have some (I think appr. 100 grams), but buying it and keeping a kilo of it around is not done anymore.

The only real annoyance is that I cannot easily make 30% H2O2. I can buy 10% H2O2, but making it more concentrated without big losses has proven to be less trivial than many people think it is. CH3NO2 is another hard to make yourself thing, but that chemical is not very important. When it was still available, I hardly used it, I can do perfectly fine without it. Na- and K-Perchlorates also are not very interesting for me. I do no pyrotechnics (not allowed at all in NL) and for aqueous chemistry I can use neutralized HClO4 (albeit at high cost) and NH4ClO4 (also at fairly high cost) which are interesting for making certain transition metal complexes which can be crystallized easily.




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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 14:19


Sadly he UK will likely crack down MORE after the Brexit disaster, as the powers that be seem to have the idea that all terrorists make their own explosives in a soup tin in their kitchen.

The rest of Europe knows that the terrorists do not make their AK47s or C4 that way, so focus less on the availability of chemicals.

Personally i think the UK being OUT of any EU decision-making is a good thing.

Sad for UK businesses maybe, but better for the much larger EU as a whole.

Some member states clearly have their own Agenda, which is why we see craziness in Holland and England and not in Spain etc.




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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 14:24


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
It is remarkable that there are such large differences between different EU-countries.

I live in NL and regularly order online from dutch or german suppliers. Some chemicals indeed are very hard to find (NH4NO3, NaClO4, KClO4, KClO3, NaClO3, HNO3, H2O2 (> 10%), and increasingly so also NaNO3 and KNO3), but most other chemicals still can be purchased without too much hassle, also stuff like HClO4 (60%), SO2Cl(OH), H3PO4 (98%), red P, I2. Another class of chemicals which are hard to find are inorganic acyl chlorides, like PCl5, POCl3, PCl3, SOCl2. There is no official restriction on these (except in very large quantities, because they can be used as chemical warfare agent precursors), but these are not sold to individuals because of their very risky nature and extreme corrosiveness. Most companies do not want to run the risk of selling these to possibly unknowing people and having reports of accidents with these.

Stuff like acetone, solid NaOH, diethyl ether, HCl (10% and 30%) are still OTC over here and can be purchased without any issues. Concentrated H2SO4 becomes more difficult, some companies want a declaration of use, but it still is sold to individuals more or less OTC.

I have the impression that in the Netherlands the bulk cheap chemicals which can be used for explosives are restricted severely, but that much more expensive, or chemicals one step further away from a bomb still are available. So, KClO4 as a bulk oxidizer is not allowed anymore, but the expensive 60% HClO4 (EUR 50 per liter or so) still is. Terrorists will need a lot of money and a lot of preprocessing if they want to use that chemical for an explosive device. With bulk stuff like NH4NO3 they could make a powerful bomb for EUR 1000 or so, simply by mixing a few compounds. If they want the same with e.g. HClO4 as a basis for making KClO4, then they would need appr. EUR 50000 for a bomb of similar strength and a lot of work to convert the hundreds of liters of HClO4 to dried and finely powdered KClO4 before it can be mixed into a bomb.

But of course, also here in NL things are changing. As soon as I have the impression that I really cannot safely do chemistry experiments anymore without fear of the police running into my house, then I quit. Right now I do not store certain chemicals anymore (one of them is HNO3), but if I need them, I make them in small quantities to be used up quickly. I have a small stock of 90% HNO3 (I think it's around 40 ml), which I made myself and with my microscale experiments this goes a long way. If this is nearly used up I may make a little more and use that again, but I do not store a few liters of HNO3 anymore. It is not allowed anymore. The same is true for KClO3. I made some by means of electrolysis (see my webpage) and I still have some (I think appr. 100 grams), but buying it and keeping a kilo of it around is not done anymore.

The only real annoyance is that I cannot easily make 30% H2O2. I can buy 10% H2O2, but making it more concentrated without big losses has proven to be less trivial than many people think it is. CH3NO2 is another hard to make yourself thing, but that chemical is not very important. When it was still available, I hardly used it, I can do perfectly fine without it. Na- and K-Perchlorates also are not very interesting for me. I do no pyrotechnics (not allowed at all in NL) and for aqueous chemistry I can use neutralized HClO4 (albeit at high cost) and NH4ClO4 (also at fairly high cost) which are interesting for making certain transition metal complexes which can be crystallized easily.


So far everyone i have spoke with, have been extremely frank with me. In the UK we have had more attacks than most EU countries, so i think the Government is very jumpy, plus politically its a weak government.

A recent report on the Manchester bomb, concluded it may have been possible to stop it. So now everyone is wanting more action, few realize that action = loss of rights.

I had no idea that most chemicals not even restricted, were now routinely reported to the police weekly. Yes I make alot of soap, so for me apart from paper work, it might be a good idea to form a company (actually i am now incorporated as from today).

I think in some ways its time to come out the shadows, the more we hide the more things are misunderstood. Maybe if more home chemists come forward, then just maybe licenses would get handed out.

I honestly dont know, i dont know most the questions, let alone the answers! So i have decided its worth trying a different approach. So far the police have been really friendly and surprisingly in favor.

I spent a long time talking to them soon the phone, i have one calling back later. But my impression is certainly different from previous experiences with the local police.

When i suggested they visit me and see what i was doing, the response was really positive. So much so i honestly think its the way forward. We dont have anything to hide, the more we are open the less reason to hound and restrict us.

We have a license system, so i figure its worth showing we can be granted licenses. I am not suggesting everyone do this yet, there could be a sting in the tail. But i am willing to stick my head up and see what happens.

I think recent events have shown we need to be careful, clearly they have no issue locking people up. If i can develop a decent relationship with the police (never thought i would ever say that!) then it can only help.

Yeah the soap thing occur to me :D, time to think about upping production :D. The new rules if they go through, will kill off home chemistry. Acetic acid >10% will be a no no.
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[*] posted on 14-12-2017 at 14:44


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  


Although there is nothing like this in the US (that I know of)



You know about Texas' legendary views on a 3 neck flask, don't you?


Yes, I am well aware of this ridiculous law. Thank Science I don't live in that state. However zts16 doesn't seem to worry about it.

I was specifically commenting on the control of common hardware store chemicals. We have our own ludicrous rules against iodine and red P, however.

[Edited on 14-12-2017 by Magpie]




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[*] posted on 15-12-2017 at 18:36


Well no one has called me back yet, but its the weekend and near Christmas, so I am not surprised it might be a few days before they do call. I have found some cheap Haz Chem Cabinets online, a good price and a couple are flammable ones.

I have started downloading all the files for storage etc, there is loads more than i realized! Even if I end up just making soap, i dont think I got much choice but to do things properly. Only people being an arse so far is a couple of low grade chem companies that most amateurs use.

I called Fischer today, they are happy to supply a small start up but no credit for 3-6 months (they want a history first, i dont want/need credit anyway). Give me until next week and I will upload all the relevant info i have found, its upto the individual how they do there hobby, but lets face it, the more accurate info we have the better.

Also called the fire Brigade, they will come up when i ask and have a look. The guy i spoke with was really helpful, i managed to talk to the nearest station to me as well, they have even offered to supply a couple of blankets and extinguishers if needed.

Actually the fire people have been really good, there attitude is one of prevention and assistance. The guy in charge locally has said they would rather help and advise than drag dead people out a building. I am sure its not going to be this smooth all the way, but so far i have been surprised how much help has been offered.

As a side note..... Anyone know of a simple image editing program for an android device? I got some pics to upload but cant get them onto the pc?? Before i upload them they need a tweak size wise.



[Edited on 16-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 15-12-2017 at 20:07


Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

As a side note..... Anyone know of a simple image editing program for an android device? I got some pics to upload but cant get them onto the pc?? Before i upload them they need a tweak size wise.


I use a thing called Photo Editor (imaginative name). It is surprisingly powerful and works well.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.iudesk.and...
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[*] posted on 15-12-2017 at 20:36


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry  

As a side note..... Anyone know of a simple image editing program for an android device? I got some pics to upload but cant get them onto the pc?? Before i upload them they need a tweak size wise.


I use a thing called Photo Editor (imaginative name). It is surprisingly powerful and works well.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.iudesk.and...


Great thx for that. The tablet has a cam but i wasnt sure about image software for android.
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[*] posted on 19-12-2017 at 04:00


The police have been, somewhat a strange experience. They are apparently coming back in the new year, i didnt get much information out of them, but i dont think they were expecting what they found.

So next visit is with someone higher up and an expert apparently.

I will post up more detail later, it wasnt what i was expecting however.
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[*] posted on 19-12-2017 at 23:26


Quote: Originally posted by aga  


Personally i think the UK being OUT of any EU decision-making is a good thing.


Sorry to disappoint you, but do you really believe that the collaboration in that issue will be cancelled?

For example adding "sulfuric acid with more than 40%" to Annex I of the Regulation 98/2013 (Forbidden to own, to prepare and use for private citizen) http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23212&...

Or matchsticks http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=23212&... and the moron of New York https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/11/nyregion/port-authority-b... used them.

It will be clear for me, that this GB behavior will be adopted to other countries....okay it can be that real implementation will differ, but under the line it will get at the same level, because it will be forced through the EU.

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[*] posted on 24-12-2017 at 09:59


The UK is bringing ALL EU law into UK law, so nothing will change from our perspective, plus a trade deal will certainly involve parity with the EU. Its a shame, but i have to agree and say that we will still get the shitty end of the EU law wise.

The Sulphuric acid and other chemicals that are set to change in 2018, are being altered when they bring EU law into UK law. This is something I have been warned about, one of the bigger chem companies has given me alot of info on this. Many chemicals will be illegal for people to use,own or buy before 2018 is out. they expect it to happen as the EU law bills go through.

They have been warned about the changes already, the real bastard of this is the declaration you sign as a company when buying, you have to list ALL uses. No longer can you simply list a chemical as general laboratory reagent!

The problem with this is going to be the wording of the law, it means you can only use the chemicals for the uses you signed it for. Plus new rules will mean you have to keep records of what is used and how much, as well as what it was used for. There are a few ways to get some leg room on this, but i wont post those until i am sure.

What is really going to hit is sodium Hydroxide, this will be limited to 3% solutions. The home soap market is massive, this will restrict home soap makers to using pre made bases only (melt and pour types). The list of chemicals being added is around 147 more so far.

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[*] posted on 24-12-2017 at 10:41


The other thing I will add to the above in the next couple of days, is information on going the business route and/or informing the police, this isnt as simple as it seems. Yes starting a business is £24, but there are some pitfalls including planning permission etc, apparently the police have a planning official for labs etc, the guy that came out was also the local police planning guy.

Already there is a small dispute between us over planning, he thinks i need to apply for change of use certificate, i KNOW i dont need too as the building should be covered already. The other thing that cropped up was the small lab in my house, i can keep it for microscope work and a few other things, but it cant be a part of the 'business'!

I will explain more once I have gone back over the paper work, the other problem is the UK is four countries, dont be fooled into thinking that legally they are the same!! The biggest difference is Scotland to the rest of the UK, plus NI which is totally different again.

I can give information I am 99.9% certain is right for Scotland, but where needed I will warn if England may be different. Also we had a chimney fire (was really scary, but fuck all damage except to the chimney liner), the fire brigade turned up for a couple of hours so i had a chance to chat to them. They were excellent with advice etc, so I will pass this on as well.

They are dropping off a couple of free fire extinguishers for my lab FOC early in Jan!! Apparently after a fire they come back a week or so later anyway, they are going to sort out a plan with me. They will add my address to the system as B.A dwelling so in future if they turn up they will automatically know where the list of chems are kept and enter with BA gear on.

So far they have been the most helpful, the police have been OK, the ones you speak with in the office are more helpful than the general cops, the specialist thats coming out i have spoken to on the phone, he seems reasonable. The planning guy for the police is a bit of a nob, but the worse one so far is a real jobsworth. Lucky enough I dont think he will have much input.

Just as another snipit of info...electricity... Suddenly start using more than 20% more electric than those around you, or 20% more than is normal for you and you get flagged to the police. Now i am lucky, technically the place where I live is classed as an estate/farm, in my post code is only a few other homes and they are all farms, so electric use around here is pretty high.

I know we use alot less than most, also i have a generator, so this may be why i havnt flagged yet. But once this is sorted out i dont have to worry, i am aware the police helicopter knows we have two large poly tunnels and a couple green houses. I really want to know why this hasnt caused a visit before now, the info might be useful to others.

Also I think when Bloggers get back, it would be useful to hear his story, after alot of digging it would appear there were some good reasons he got on the wrong side. It isnt for me to say, but if others are worried they are on the wrong side, its unlikely many would get into his situation. BTW all court appearances are transcribed, you can get the information with a FOI request with a half decent reason (law research is good enough).

I didnt want to pry into others business, but it did concern me, i made some assumptions that concerned me. As it turns out i honestly doubt most would fall into the same trap that happened in that case. Lets hope he is back on here soon, i kinda miss the helpful but sometimes ascorbic replies he gave :D.
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 05:53


The file attached is about chem storage rules, its a uni document however. Also note i havnt posted the actual rules and laws as this is about to change in the next couple of weeks. I might post the outdated version once i get a reliable copy that covers all the UK.

The PDF reads as advisory, but alot of it is about to get more teeth in law.

Added a couple more files, one has a good chart in it.


Attachment: chem-storage.pdf (238kB)
This file has been downloaded 127 times

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

Attachment: chem-storage-gn.pdf (520kB)
This file has been downloaded 107 times

Attachment: DMEU_TDS_00320_EN_std.lang.all.pdf (2.8MB)
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 10:04


I have joined this for a free two week trial https://chemicalwatch.com/
I will join again once its more clear where the UK is heading rule wise with Brexit. So far the best place for accurate info is some the smaller chem companies in the UK, they are applying the law to the letter in most cases.

Not very helpful people, but Atom Scientific has several brands, the other main one is ACP Pure. look on the Atom scientific brand website at the chems, any listed as needing a declaration, will definitely (as it stands today date) be regarded as class 1 chems (maybe a couple will be class2) in 2018.

Keep in mind the whole brexit law transcribe thing wont apply to the letter with chemicals, read the above website i linked too for an explanation of this.

I will post COSHH info and REACH info, but be aware this is too be regarded as the bare minimum of what you need to do, it seems the police had a better understanding in 2015 than they do today (they are unsure how many of the changes are effective already, at least in Scotland).

Please try and comply with the storage standards, it isnt just you or me that is affected by bad practice. What each person does or dosnt do, will affect EVERYONE in the hobby. I will post the list from REACH as it stands now, notice that ALL class 3 chems (like Acetone) are reported on a weekly basis to the police.

So anyone selling you Acetone etc should be giving the details to the police, potassium permanganate is class 2, dont be fooled by the 10kg thing, buying 100g of it will get you reported, but unlikely you will get a visit.
At the moment the police seem reasonable if your proactive, this might change.

This wall chart is from the government site, however note its misleading!! ANYTHING listed on Atom Scientific as needing a declaration of use is reported weekly. This includes stuff like Chloroform.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...

This information from REACH is out of date, but look at items like potassium Dichromate and the sunset date that has just passed (sept 2017), then look at the other sunset dates for 2017.

In the UK at least, all these chemicals will be put into the new law when EU law is transferred into UK law.

https://echa.europa.eu/authorisation-list

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

[Edited on 26-12-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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[*] posted on 26-12-2017 at 20:18


This is a great resource - I'm not from the UK so most of it doesn't apply, but this is a wonderfully helpful read-through.



My write-ups are on here...
http://www.MeltThe.Ga or http://ptp.x10.mx
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[*] posted on 1-1-2018 at 14:41


Very frustrating indeed.

If posession of KOH, NaOH, and H2SO4 is criminalized, then that'll make just about everyone with drain/oven/toilet cleaner a criminal.

I also find it entertaining that technically as an individual you now need an EPP license to legally possess mercury metal/compounds (I bet loads of people have old mercury thermometers lying about. What about tooth fillings?!) and oxalic acid (ok sure, it's poisonous, but so long as you don't go eating or snorting it it's really not a problem to handle it).
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[*] posted on 1-1-2018 at 15:09


Quote: Originally posted by DavidJR  
Very frustrating indeed.

If posession of KOH, NaOH, and H2SO4 is criminalized, then that'll make just about everyone with drain/oven/toilet cleaner a criminal.

I also find it entertaining that technically as an individual you now need an EPP license to legally possess mercury metal/compounds (I bet loads of people have old mercury thermometers lying about. What about tooth fillings?!) and oxalic acid (ok sure, it's poisonous, but so long as you don't go eating or snorting it it's really not a problem to handle it).


Well some of those you mention are still in the sunset period i think.
Mercury in thermometers is covered by the scientific instrument exemption, break the thermometer and store the Mercury however and then your breaking the law.

I am waiting on more information, which hopefully now the Holiday period is nearly over, i should be able to make more progress.

Its alot more complicated than it first appears, and yes alot of it is virtually unworkable. BUT I started the research because someone DID fall foul of the law.

Once i get alot more solid information, and keep in mind Brexit will have its own impact for the UK on the rules. I will post the facts on a website i am setting up, that way there will be an upto date resource available for the Uk. Much of it is likely to also help alot of the EU chemists here.

The sodium hydroxide and some the other chemicals wont have to be banned as such, they have a clever way of not needing a ban. The government is placing extremely tight restrictions on suppliers, the paperwork they have to keep and submit, means that most chemical suppliers are effectively policing the system for the government for free.

So i suspect, as is already the case for a large number of chems, they wont have to ban them, you just wont be able to actually get hold of them without a license or correct company SIC number.

Alot of chem suppliers are already asking for declaration forms etc for Sulphuric acid and such. There is a couple of companies that dont, but they wont last much longer and i wont be naming them.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2018 at 15:37


I was curious as to how easy it may be to obtain an EPP license, so I have just submitted a FOIA request to the Home Office asking for statistics. You can follow the progress of it here: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/explosives_precursors...
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[*] posted on 1-1-2018 at 19:52


I did the same a little while back, at the time the count was 0.

The police have suggestead a number of reasons for this, however maybe a few have been issued now. The problem however is knowing WHY they were granted.

The chances are if any have been granted, then its for business reasons... Thx for doing another FOI though, i will watch with interest

[Edited on 2-1-2018 by NEMO-Chemistry]
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