Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3
Author: Subject: The simplest preparation of sulfuric acid?!
Tsjerk
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2898
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mood

[*] posted on 26-1-2021 at 13:20


I had another go at it, with isopropanol this time.

This article didn't give me much hope in getting the method to work with methanol.

I again made a 50 ml solution with 0.1 mol NaHSO4 and added 50 ml IPA. This time there was no immediate precipitation, but after half an hour in the fridge there were some very nice plate like crystals.

After filtering and rinsing with a bit of IPA I dried the sodium sulfate filter cake in a microwave and found 6 grams of Na2SO4, instead of the expected 7.1, so there must be some NaHSO4 left in the acid

I distilled the filtrate until the temperature in the head reached 100 degrees. I don't know if there was any dehydration of the alcohol, but at least I didn't notice anything. I determined the concentration of the IPA by density and it was around 85% with a 100% recovery of IPA. I titrated the water and the acid (in the form of H2SO4 and NaHSO4) yield was around 100%.

Next I dissolved 0.125 mol NaHSO4 in 30 ml and added the 85% alcohol, but this just formed two layers.

There might be a sweet spot in between these two conditions, but I think it would be hard to find and you will always be left with some sodium in the acid. The recovery of the alcohol is easy though. I will try with ethanol sometime soon.

The solubility data on Wikipedia (280 g/l) is wrong. Judging on the size of the water layer in the second experiment I think this data (670 g/l) is correct.

[Edited on 26-1-2021 by Tsjerk]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Tsjerk
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2898
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline

Mood: Mood

[*] posted on 27-1-2021 at 03:06


Actually the IPA/NaHSO4 method does work. The water layer I observed turned out to be a saturated sodium sulfate solution, sodium sulfate has the property to have its maximum solubility exactly in the amount of water needed to crystallize as the decahydrate.

When I checked the beaker this morning the water layer had completely crystallized, but the crystals could easily be broken up and I didn't see a water layer anymore. To be sure I placed the beaker in the fridge for half an hour. I filtered the mixture, which is easy to do as the crystals are nice and big, and dried the crystals in the microwave. This gave exactly the expected amount of Na2SO4 and titration of the acid gave the expected amount of H2SO4.

So a 30 ml solution containing 0.125 mol NaHSO4 with 58 ml 85% IPA and about ten minutes of stirring gives an easy to filter suspension of crystals and sulfuric acid low in sodium. The IPA is available as rubbing alcohol and can easily be recycled. Once you distill off the IPA the sulfuric acid is already around 25%.

Edit: These amounts can probably be optimized, but even with these numbers you could easily run 1 mol batches in a one liter distillation setup giving 0.5 mol of sulfuric acid each time.

[Edited on 27-1-2021 by Tsjerk]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1631
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 21-2-2022 at 13:15


@clearly_not_atara very low yields, best yields is in bark or even better leaves- or, once again better thistles. there used to be some site having data for potassium content in different types of wood, bark, leaves and thistles- its gone. sad.
its all approximates since a plant doesnt just magically manifest potassium ions into existence, they pull it from the ground
and if the ground is a complete zero in potassium- then so will the tree

if people are interested in getting potassium, the pool chemical "caroat" is a tripple salt mix of KHSO4, K2SO4 and KHSO5, name comes from coroats acid H2SO5 made by conc H2SO4 and H2O2, browsing about i see its less and less available, only 500g available on fleabay in europe. as for fertilizers, we dont have your gardening center, it varies a lot. i was once able to find some calcium nitrate, impure with some nitrogenous hydrogen molecule too, and it was bound into some sort of complex- while americans would swear that you can buy it all in 5N grade because they can at their local kmart or whatever- and one other user in this thread mentioned that you can *just* go and buy battery acid
this is barely possible anymore, last i looked around you have to buy 20L jugs and its just .. sub20% - this will get worse no doubt. were not seeing politicians getting busy with writing laws that promote freedom- i dont even watch TV and i know this for a fact.

acid salts and the corresponding acid can act a bit weird, i found out some years back that you can in a very specific percentage range of H2SO4 dissolve calcium sulfate, and i managed to produce a fistsized bunch of crystal cake with long crystals, it was formed as i casually diluted the acid over time as i was using some of the acid for cleaning, we have seen same effect with NaOH and hydroxides, chromium hydroxide for instance. once the sulfuric acid gets well concentrated this should not be an issue, i know with iron sulfate the solubility actually decreases a lot, even with fairly low conc H2SO4, i believe they also use HCl to precipitate NaCl out of solution for making crystalline salt for cooking

very neat project in this thread, especially if you go ahead and buy bulk of pH minus, guaranteed to raise zero suspicion if the cashier is a young woman whose only concept of acid is a psychoactive drug she heard stories about.




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3

  Go To Top