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Author: Subject: What is the point of amateur chemistry?
Texium (zts16)
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[*] posted on 13-6-2018 at 11:15




pancakes house.jpg - 68kB




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Magpie
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[*] posted on 13-6-2018 at 12:13


I love Peter Stormare. He's a Swede you know, hence his sometimes crude English. Notice he doesn't bother with his seat belt. That's for wimps.

[Edited on 13-6-2018 by Magpie]




The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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MrHomeScientist
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[*] posted on 13-6-2018 at 12:22


You know, it's "burgers house" now.
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coppercone
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[*] posted on 15-6-2018 at 14:59


Really if you work hard you can do unique research in most fields in your house or document stuff that's poorly documented or horded internally by companies or explain stuff that's explained poorly for use of others. Tons of companies are just too paranoid to patent and rather keep internal trade secrets on manufacturing steps or designs etc. If you work on replicating what someone else is doing privately you might discover hidden shit.

It's alot of work, and some shit is just out of reach due to cost and regulation (i.e. studying neutron flux effect on custom alloys is not gonna happen at home unless your Dr. Venture or do some complete mad cunt shit). I can kind of see some nuclear physicsts getting pissed that someone talented is making a reactor at home rather then tackling serious problems (but its kind of short sighted on the professor) that there is a lack of minds in the field for.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the people you describe are kind of like ants where they are trying to force people into putting their effort into research projects described as being collectively good by society. I also get the feeling that they don't like the struggle that comes with doing stuff yourself and not being part of a collective... but that's why you can pay people privately to make stuff like complicated glassware or do custom synthesis to save you time.

Also if you work for a company and you are passionate you will find that its often worth doing it for yourself properly.. rather then designing around profit. I bet you will usually find problems in most places with how things are built and how they can be better.

A problem I ran into though is how many fucking crafts you need to know to do something, like you need to study a buncha HVAC bullshit, corrosion bullshit, electrical power system shit, metrology shit, just to build or even test/maintain a fume hood, whereas in a university you can hyperfocus on one thing and have some kind of established maintenance people take your mind off of doing a buncha maintenance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39qW-Q42QlU :cool:


[Edited on 15-6-2018 by coppercone]
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roXefeller
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[*] posted on 15-6-2018 at 18:19



Quote:

Really if you work hard you can do unique research in most fields in your house or document stuff that's poorly documented or horded internally by companies or explain stuff that's explained poorly for use of others. Tons of companies are just too paranoid to patent and rather keep internal trade secrets on manufacturing steps or designs etc. If you work on replicating what someone else is doing privately you might discover hidden shit.


It's offensive to generically brand industrial research as hoarding or paranoia. The cost to learn is expensive for anything that isn't already common knowledge. If a company gives away costly research without recovering some or all of the cost they will quickly become an ex-entity. Industrial or national espionage is an existential threat. The USA damaged Britain's position in the textile market during the industrial revolution through espionage. Other nations do it to the USA and others. In the news we hear about violations of intellectual property by the Chinese against many. The outcome might be beneficial for many sometimes but removes the incentive at other times.

The patent system, as I see it in America at least, is basically a giveaway to thieves. The only exception is for those who enforce protection of their own through the courts. But even then it isn't a sure thing to successfully defend a claim.
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Texium (zts16)
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[*] posted on 15-6-2018 at 20:36


coppercone: if you can write your future posts to contain fewer instances of "shit," that would be much appreciated.



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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 29-6-2018 at 03:27


C'mon Tex, that word is so ubiquitous now, it's lost its cachet...


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Abromination
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[*] posted on 29-7-2018 at 21:06


I noticed this thread and it made me so mad I just had to say something. Cou, your full of bull$#*?
You have so many posts and they are all spam. I don't understand why you haven't been bannes yet. Amateur chemistry is an art. My parents often ask "and what is the point of making methyl salicylate (for example)" and I will respond "and why would an artist create a painting?"
Valuable discoveries have before been made by amateur chemists, and some can even save lives. Who knows, the cure for cancer could be discovered by an amateur chemist.
It is also valuble for people like me who are planning on getting a degree in chemistry.
If you were a real chemist, you would understand these things. The funny thing is I shouldn't even consider myself a real chemist cause hell, I havent even finished high school.
If you understood, you would know it is an art. It is what I wake up too in the morning and go to bed with at night.




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MJ101
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[*] posted on 30-7-2018 at 08:45


Cou does bring up some interesting points. And he did say that he was playing "devils' advocate".

Just about every field of technology has been advanced by the work of "amateurs"; people who approach
a field with a love for it, and a burning desire to learn.

Just like most of you here, I too am an Auto-Dydact. I have taught myself electronics engineering and built a nice career for myself (28 years).
Yet I consider myself an "amateur", because I still have the love and the burning desire to learn.

Not everybody has that. And not everyone wants to teach you. If you don't believe that, just go to any Linux forum and ask a n00b question. See what happens.

They will deride and insult you for not reading the F*cking (or Phuqing) Manual.

Why should a chemistry forum be any different?

BTW: That's why I joined this forum. Smart people who are nice and who will tolerate beginner questions.

Who could ask for anything more. :)

@coppercone: There are two expletives, that, when respelled, can be written in corporate memos. :)

Sh*t = Schitt
F*ck = Phuque.

e.g. Production was low and product quality was schitty this week because operator #27 phuqued up the automatic feeder.

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Abromination
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[*] posted on 30-7-2018 at 10:20


Quote: Originally posted by MJ101  
Cou does bring up some interesting points. And he did say that he was playing "devils' advocate".

Just about every field of technology has been advanced by the work of "amateurs"; people who approach
a field with a love for it, and a burning desire to learn.

Just like most of you here, I too am an Auto-Dydact. I have taught myself electronics engineering and built a nice career for myself (28 years).
Yet I consider myself an "amateur", because I still have the love and the burning desire to learn.

Not everybody has that. And not everyone wants to teach you. If you don't believe that, just go to any Linux forum and ask a n00b question. See what happens.

They will deride and insult you for not reading the F*cking (or Phuqing) Manual.

Why should a chemistry forum be any different?

BTW: That's why I joined this forum. Smart people who are nice and who will tolerate beginner questions.

Who could ask for anything more. :)

@coppercone: There are two expletives, that, when respelled, can be written in corporate memos. :)

Sh*t = Schitt
F*ck = Phuque.

e.g. Production was low and product quality was schitty this week because operator #27 phuqued up the automatic feeder.



Im sorry. My comment was inappropriate and I completely agree with you. After looking at more of Cou's posts, I believe that there is some actual chemistry in there he just has his own sense of humor.




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MJ101
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[*] posted on 30-7-2018 at 11:47


@Abromination: No apology necessary. As far as inappropriate goes, you spoke your mind and your heart at the same time. :)

The importance of taking a step back sometimes. Here's a little story which I hope will clarify my point:

A young bull and an older bull were standing on the top of a hill, surveying a herd of cows grazing.

The young bull says to the old bull:
"Hey! Let's run down there and have our way with one of those cows!"

The older bull thought for a moment and said:
"Let's walk down and have our way with all of them.".

:)
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solinium
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[*] posted on 2-8-2018 at 06:12


Quote: Originally posted by Cou  
I'm playing devil's advocate because I would love the idea of having a home chemistry lab, but before investing the money into it, I want to know about some good reasons to do this.

I'm already in college, going for a chemistry major, which will eventually allow me to one day possibly become a chemistry professor and do research in university labs. This is far more productive than a home chemistry lab, you need expensive equipment to discover new things nowadays. The times of accidentally discovering infrared light at home with just a thermometer and prism are over. So, what's the point of a home chemistry lab if I'm gonna be doing more productive research at university one day? Having a lab is fun, but is that really the only purpose, having fun and piquing my curiosity and nurturing chemistry interest without innovating? Biggest benefit I could imagine from this is that it makes me motivated to continue the chemistry career path towards professor.

I notice that most experienced chemists, such as grad students and chem professors, strongly disapprove of home chemistry. Just look at /r/chemistry on reddit, where all home chemistry posts are downvoted to oblivion and met with responses of "Are you a chemistry student or a nut? Are you trying to kill yourself? Do you realize this looks like a meth lab? I'd be very suspicious." Obviously the experts disapprove of us, so why do this?

[Edited on 23-2-2018 by Cou]
for fun and the intellectual challenge of some synths
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[*] posted on 7-8-2018 at 08:46


An interesting aspect of amateur chemistry is that you do not always find what you're seeking or later discover an important application of what you have just observed or created.

For example, in the event of a power outage for a significant period of time, the water supply may no longer be safe. So knowing how to prepare a strong disinfecting mix as simply as acidifying hypochlorite with say CO2 (creating HOCl which is cited as about 100 times stronger than hypochlorite in killing microbes, see http://www.aerosia.com/popup_article.php?link=article_6.htm) and/or working in combination with sunlight acting on ZnO (see my prep thread on CuO at http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=84047#... and use Zinc metal in place of Copper) a photocatalytic salt capable of producing reactive oxygen species in sunlight (see http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://www.resear... ), can further favorably interface with hypochlorous acid producing hydroxyl radicals and oxygen/singlet oxygen. The latter knowledge, which is likely more convenient on a large scale as opposed to boiling water, may just turn out to be a lifesaver.

So one should probably not diminish the importance of skills and the ability to make even simple compounds that comes with the practice of amateur home chemistry.

[Edited on 7-8-2018 by AJKOER]
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