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soto3330
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Only ScienceLab?
Hello Maybe all of you out there surfing the tubes on the interweb can help me out. I have a DIY project set up and i will be doing this project as an
individual not under a university. I am trying to find a site to obtain 2,4 dinitrophenol but sciencelab is the site that i can find that sell to
individuals but i have been ripped of by them before. Any help on alternative sites?
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undead_alchemist
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Lets just say the shipping and hazmat fees would cost more then the chemical.
And there are other places that do have access to it. but because of the fees, its a loss item or has a very high price from any secondary sellers.
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Sauron
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Why not make your own 2,4-dinitrophenol?
This not difficult.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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soto3330
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Why not make your own 2,4-dinitrophenol?
This not difficult. |
My project didn't involve making 2,4-dinitrophenol. willing to learn. Care share any links for good straight forward information on doing so
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chemrox
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ScienceLabs is very very slow .. often don't answer phones and have to pester them with faxes and eamils to get any kind of response. If you want to
experiment with chems get established with one of the mainstreams it will be worth it in the longrun
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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Magpie
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Too bad you didn't UTFSE on this site before attempting to deal with sciencelab.com:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8270&a...
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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soto3330
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chemrox
ScienceLabs is very very slow .. often don't answer phones and have to pester them with faxes and eamils to get any kind of response. If you want to
experiment with chems get established with one of the mainstreams it will be worth it in the longrun |
um ya i was told there was a backorder after i order from them and they told me 7/8 weeks. We are now going on week 17.. At this rate i wont get
anything from there for about 2yrs.
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soto3330
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At this point have filed with the BBB... too bad i didn't see that.
Making 2,4 - dinitrophenol sounds possible any help would be appreciated or link to site to just get the 2,4-dinitrophenol would go with a big well
known place but they don't sell to individuals.
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MagicJigPipe
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For those of you who don't like abbreviations or don't live in North America, BBB stands for Better Business Bureau.
From Wikipedia:
| Quote: | | The BBB states its purpose is to act as a mutually trusted intermediary between consumers and businesses to resolve disputes, to facilitate
communication, and to provide information on ethical business practices. |
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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2,4-DNP is usually made by dinitration of chlorobenzene and then fusion with NaOH in an autoclave and liberation of the dinitrophenol from the sodium
phenoxide.
I'd be curious to know the nature of your project and why you need 2,4-DNP. Like picric acid, it is often used for derivatizing amines. But you sound
pretty clueless, in all honesty. This stuff is toxic, and is explosive - not a very good explosive but, nonetheless explosive. Those are two good
reasons for it not to be in the hands of someone who needs to be spoonfed about making it, or buying it.
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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chloric1
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======v88eiiiiiiq455y6\ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp
Contacted Chloric about this. This is very odd. Chemoleo
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by chemoleo]
Fellow molecular manipulator
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MagicJigPipe
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What the hell? Am I hallucinating?
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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No, you are not hallucinating, but those should go away as soon as the mods get a look at them. Looks like total gibberish to me.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Fleaker
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He's never done this before, there is very little chance of it actually being him.
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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chemrox
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Back to ScienceLabs: only work with them on a PO basis so you're not out any cash if they "backorder" you.
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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Sauron
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I have a better idea: don't deal with ScineLab at ALL. I do not believe they would honor a PO from an individual, and if you have a company or an
institution backing you, then you do not need ScienceLab, do you? You can order from the majors.
Real suppliers usually only honor purchase orders from government entities or institutions. Or established commercial accounts. Getting an account
established is not usually easy.
By buying from ScienceLab you aid and abet known crooks. Maybe not in the legal sense but in the practical sense. They have cheated many of you, don't
help them cheat anyone else.
Where I am, most suppliers will deal with my company on a COD basis. A few ask for payment in advance with first order only. Most will let me order on
a 30 days net basis once I have purchased from them a few times. Now, given one company that gives me terms and another that wants cash in advance or
COD, who do you reckon I will buy from more often? The suppliers know this. They lay ball. Most, anyway.
A few are assholes. The Sigma Aldrich agents are assholes. So is the Cole Parmer agent. The biggest asshole is the PlasLabs agent. He marks up
everything 300% over US retail. So I just buy in USA.
The agents for Acros, Merck, Panreac, Ajax, Carlo Erba, Kimble-Kontes, Fluka (not same agent as Aldrich) are all OK. The Waters HPLC agent is OK.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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zeppelin69
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
This stuff is toxic, and is explosive
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by Sauron] |
Thats strange, I was just reading about this compound on Megalomania's site today, and he mentioned its use as a weight loss drug. I can't imagine the
FDA ever approving anything remotely toxic for a daily supplement.
http://www.roguesci.org/chemlab/energetics/dinitrophenol.htm...
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Sauron
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You question the toxicity of nitrophenols in general?
I do not believe that FDA has approved 2,4-DNP as an anorexic, that's simply preposterous.
See
http://www.lakes-environmental.com/toxic/2_4-DINITROPHENOL.H...
2,4-DNP is an EPA regulated pesticide. It has high acute human toxicity LD50 as low as 14 mg/Kg, and chronic human toxicity as well. EPA has set a RfD
that has a zero in front and quite a few zeros behind the decimal point.
Does that sound like something FDA is going to embrace for tratment of a lifestyle disorder?
Get real.
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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zeppelin69
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I do not question at all the toxic nature of most nitrophenols, however it apears DNP may be an exception. I may have been wrong assuming that it was
approved by the FDA , but it is still used by many people with rare cases of problems from it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dinitrophenol
Well I have been trying to get the Wiki link to work, but it won't cooperate, sorry.
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by zeppelin69]
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Sauron
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Yeah, and on the Internet, hydrazine hydrate is also a recommended treatment for cancer victims. Only problem is, it's a known human carcinogen
itself.
Don't take your pharmacological information from dubious sources, and Wiki is as dubious a source as they get.
From the page I cited above:
Chronic Effects (Noncancer):
* Chronic (long-term) oral exposure to 2,4-dinitrophenol in humans and animals has resulted in the formation of cataracts and skin lesions and has
caused effects on the bone marrow, central nervous system, and cardiovascular system. (2)
* The RfD for 2,4-dinitrophenol is 0.002 mg/kg/d based on cataract formation in humans. (4)
That's two MICROGRAMS/Kg/day.
Having had cataracts, I don't recommend anything that CAUSES them.
If you knew anything about the history of industrial hygiene in explosives factories and munitions plants you would know that nitroaromatics in
general, with no exceptions I am aware of, are highly toxic. That includes nitrobenzenes, nitrotoluenes, nitroanilines, nitrophenols,
nitrochlorobenzenes, nitroxylenes, nitronapthalenes, on down the line. Assuredly some more than others. The ortho-nitro compounds tend to be worst.
Dinitrochlorobenzene is a skin sensitizer, causes severe itching.
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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MagicJigPipe
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Wiki says DNP was used as a dietary supplement in the 30s. I wouldn't doubt this. Remember that back then some considered smoking to be healthy.
I used to work at a local Powerhouse Gym and now that I think about it I remember some of the guys I used to work with (the ones that did the
bodybuilding competitions) mentioning DNP. Also, at that time (about 6 years ago) they talked a lot about how to obtain GHB.
Interestingly, I remember us selling a concentrated ephedra extract which I estimated, at one point, to contain well over 20g of ephedra. I didn't
understand why we stopped selling it then but I managed to grab the last bottle. I still have it today, I guess I should get rid of it.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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not_important
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DNP was used as a diet drug pre-WWII, several countries including the US discontinued its use around then. However some people continued and still use
it for its fat burning effects, just as people ingest other banned and/or harmful substances. If you read the Wiki article given it roughly does say
this.
As for hydrazine, while I am rather skeptical of its effectiveness, it should be noted that many drugs used to fight cancer are carcinogenic
themselves; see cyclophosphamide, busulfan, and streptozotocin for examples.
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Sauron
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Well, I have good news and bad news for the thread author.
The good news is that per Vodel's 3rd edition, te conversion of 2,4-dinitrochlorobenzene to dinitrophenol does not require an autoclave. His procedure
on a 50 g basis id one in a 1 L RB flask with a reflux condenser and uses sodium carbonate soln and 24 hours reflux. Yield 26 g 2,4-dinitrophenol
after acididying the mixture with hydrochlorice acid.
Now the bad news.
According to Davis, the nitration of chlorobenzene is done with fuming nitric acid (d.1.50) and conc sulfuric acid. The nitration is not difficult,
but for someone who can't buy 2,4-DNP, buying fuming nitric acid may well be just as much of a roadblock.
He could of course make his own fuming nitric acid, by the expedient of KNO3/conc H2SO4 distillation. This has been explicated fully many time on this
forum, with photos, please UTFSE. This procedure is best done either outdoors or in a fume hood, in my opinion, with proper safety equipment at all
times: goggles and gloves at the bare minimum.
So three steps
Make fuming nitric acid
Make 2,4-dinitrochlorobenzene from chlorobenzene
Convert that to dinitrophenol
If the thread author can't buy chlorobenzene, he will have to learn how to chlorinate benzene - not that benzene will be any easier to obtain!
Vogel, Practical Organic Chemistry, 3rd ed. in forum library for download
David, Chemistry of Powder & Explosives, also forum library for download.
See? Knowledge costs nothing.
So, is there any simple way out of this box?
Preparation of trinitrophenol (picric acid) from phenol is possible, by direct nitration with mixed acids, the nitric acid being normal concentrated
d. 1.42. Davis gives this So the problem is stopping at the dinitro stage and then purifying the product to remove any mononitrophenols,
2,6-dinitrophenol, and picric acid byproducts. See what a mess this would be?
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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Sauron
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Some bodybuilders and notably pro jocks also fuck themselves up on steroids in a quest to gain an edge. The results are often personally,
professionally, and medically disastrous.
So fads at the gym do not at all impress me, except to underscore my cynicism about human folly.
Here is what Merck Index 12th ED SAYS ABOUT TOXICITY OF 2,4-dnp
Note: Caution: Highly toxic material. Readily ab sorbed through intact skin. Vapors absorbed through respiratory tract. Produces marked increase in
metabolism and temp, profuse sweating, nausea, vomiting, collapse, death. May cause dermatitis, cataracts, wt loss, granulocytopenia, polyneuropathy,
exfoliative dermatitis, Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products, R. E. Gosselin et al., Eds. (Williams and Wilkins, Baltimore, 4th ed., 1976)
Section III, pp 134-137.
Sound like a harmless fat burner to anyone???
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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MagicJigPipe
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Agreed. Ironically, a lot of the "health buffs" there were some of the most unhealthy people.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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