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CHRIS25
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Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  | Chris:
Describe what you understand by 'wetness', please?
[Edited on 5-6-2014 by blogfast25]
[Edited on 5-6-2014 by blogfast25] |
In this context speaking subjectively, when you squash a piece between your fingers it feels like pinching icing sugar except that there is less
friction due to a slippery surface. Wow I have never had to describe wetness like this before.
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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aga
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i just tried the Aluminium Suphate Hydrate crystals with Chlorine Gas.
The Cl2 generator was OTC Sodium Hypochlorite and HCl.
Having now Seen, Smelt and Suffered from Chlorine gas exposure, i retract unreservedly my earlier comment about something smelling 'chloriney'.
It didn't.
That was HCl.
This is Cl2
Remarkable difference. Truly remarkable.
I used to think i knew what chlorine smelt like.
I did not know at all.
Anyway, as before, the gas was led into a vacuum flask into which was placed some aluminium sulphate (unknown) hydrate crystals.
Most of the crystals remained totally white.
Some are taking on a very small portion of Yellow, with most of the mass remaining white.
So, HCl makes it go Ape, Cl2 does not.
Now, if you will excuse me, i will go and seek out a Beer, an ENT specialist, a pneumothorax specialist, and posssibly an entire replacement body.
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The Volatile Chemist
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Excused, aga. This yellow color is indeed interesting!
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blogfast25
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Chris:
It would be simpler to just call it: 'moisture content' 
Aga:
Not sure what you wanted to achieve there. For Cl2 to do anything, it would need something to oxidise but there's nothing there. Everything in that
flask is already at its maximum oxidation state, except oxygen [in the sulphate ions] which is at -2 but O (II-) cannot be oxidised by Cl2 in any way,
shape or form. Mixing things for the sake of mixing things isn't very useful...
Trying to react chlorine with a solid at RT isn't easy anyway: most things would need some heat to get started.
Far more interesting remains to gas a saturated solution of ASH with HCl: there we can expect something to precipitate/crystallise but it's by no
means certain.
As regards the 'remarkable' difference? What did you expect? They are two very different substances!
[Edited on 6-6-2014 by blogfast25]
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CHRIS25
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You said "Describe" I would have failed 'O' level English if I had simply said "moisture content" 
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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Zyklon-A
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aga, it was already established that chlorine wouldn't work for this reaction.
It is impossible to balance the equation: Al2(SO4)3 (aq) + Cl2 (g) → 2 AlClSO4 +
SO4-, there's no cation to combine with the sulfate anion.
With HCl (g) the hydrogen atoms combine with the resulting sulfate- ions to form sulfuric acid.
[Edited on 6-6-2014 by Zyklonb]
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blogfast25
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Yes but now I know what you meant!
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The Volatile Chemist
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb | aga, it was already established that chlorine wouldn't work for this reaction. It is impossible to balance the equation:
Al2(SO4)3 (aq) + Cl2 (g) → 2 AlClSO4 + SO4-, there's no cation to
combine with the sulfate anion.
With HCl (g) the hydrogen atoms combine with the resulting sulfate- ions to form sulfuric acid. |
Although that reaction works, it seems like it'd be a bit unstable, sulfuric acid being stronger than HCl.
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Zyklon-A
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That reaction doesn't work, that's my point, you can't just have a sulfate- ion floating around in solution.
BTW, HCl (aq) is a stronger acid than H2SO4.
Besides, that's hardly relevant. I think it forms AlClSO4 due to it's insolubility, which drives the equilibrium to the right. Has little
to do with acid strength .
[Edited on 6-6-2014 by Zyklonb]
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aga
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@blogfast25 : it was suggested, seemed easy to do, so i did it just to see for myself is all. Good practice, and experience.
Never actually smelt chlorine gas before yesterday. Ever.
Assumed that it was the same as what you get off an overdosed pool.
Boy was i wrong !
Well, now i know.
@ZyklonB
I have never encountered chlorine gas before yesterday.
Just did the experiment and there's the results.
No point telling me that it Obviously Cannot work after suggesting that it might, expecially citing experience with chlorine gas.
Looking at the Aluminium Sulphate crystals today, they are in fact slightly yellow in parts.
Nothing at all like the dramatic change with HCl.
I suspect that some Cl2 reacts to make HCl 'on-site' so to speak, either from atmospheric water or from water of crystallisation, and then
reacts.
Overall the crystals are still mainly white.
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blogfast25
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That reaction DOESN'T work. On the left you have Cl<sub>2</sub>, oxidation state 0. On the right the Cl shows up as chloride,
Cl<sup>-</sup>, oxidation state -1. So a reduction took place: Cl(0) + e ===> Cl(-1). For that to occur something else would have to be
oxidised, to provide that electron. But nothing else has changed oxidation state, so this reaction CANNOT proceed. As is also evidenced by the fact
the reaction equation cannot be balanced.
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Zyklon-A
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| Quote: |
No point telling me that it Obviously Cannot work after suggesting that it might, especially citing experience with chlorine gas.
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I know, I made a mistake, Blogfast quickly debunked the idea, soon after I suggested it:
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
But by all means try my ratio...
FORGET chlorine. There's no way it can react here to chloride and chloride is what we need here.
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I quickly realized my mistake:
| Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb |
Ah right, I don't know how I missed that.
Al2(SO4)3 (aq) + 2 HCl (g) → 2 AlClSO4 + H2SO4, that works, but
Al2(SO4)3 (aq) + Cl2 (g) → 2 AlClSO4 + SO4-, there's no cation
to combine with the sulfate anion. [Face-palm]
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My experiences with chlorine had little to do with my assumption as to whether it would work, I just wasn't thinking clearly.
The good thing is, you've dealt with the green gas now. You always remember your first
Oh the smell... I remember my first time with the bitch. Coughing uncontrollably on the floor. My mom came in the lab to see what happened, then ran
back in the house slamming the door in my face, "Don't get that 'death gas' in my kitchen!" Then I vomited 20 minutes later, and had the poison
control on the phone... Good times.
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aga
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| Quote: | | "Don't get that 'death gas' in my kitchen!" Then I vomited 20 minutes later, |
I said the same, although my vomiting was due to over-cavorting rather than the Cl2
To be fair, i was prepared for it, doing the whole thing in a fume hood.
I thought it worthwhile to grab a gloved-handful and cautiously have a sniff.
Experience it is, although not a good one !
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb |
"Don't get that 'death gas' in my kitchen!" Then I vomited 20 minutes later, and had the poison control on the phone... Good times. |
Errrmm... you didn't read up on chlorine a bit first? See, this is why some parents get the jitters when their precious brood decides to 'do some
chemistry'!
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Zyklon-A
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Not as much as I should have!
My parents are very understanding, letting me learn the hard way is something they do a lot it seems.
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aga
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Strange how attitude changes over time.
When i was young and with parents, i made gunpowder, rockets, Exciting stuff !
Now i'm old, have grown-up children and Life Assurance, those things are of little interest.
Basically i have fulfilled my primary purpose for edisting, and am now expendable, however all the Fun chemistry holds little attaction.
Odd.
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The Volatile Chemist
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Sheesh, y'all attacked me behind my back (aka not on the computer  )! I meant the
second reaction wouldn't be stable,
| Quote: | | With HCl (g) the hydrogen atoms combine with the resulting sulfate- ions to form sulfuric acid. |
but zyklonb was right, I guess HCl is stronger, and that it wouldn't matter anyways.
I knew the Cl2 wouldn't work.
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AJKOER
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Here is preparation I plan on trying that avoids H2SO4 and any Iron issues. Consider the action [Edit: possible action, no experimental evidence as of
yet] Aluminium chlorohydrate on pure aqueous MgSO4:
2 AlCl2(OH) (aq) + MgSO4 (aq) ---?---) Mg(OH)2 (s) + Al2(SO4)Cl4
forming Aluminum chlorosulfate. Now, with respect to the preparation of AlCl2(OH), to quote from Wikipedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_chlorohydrate ):
"Aluminium chlorohydrate can be commercially manufactured by reacting aluminium with hydrochloric acid. A number of aluminium-containing raw materials
can be used, including aluminium metal, alumina trihydrate, aluminium chloride, aluminium sulfate and combinations of these. The products can contain
by-product salts, such as sodium/calcium/magnesium chloride or sulfate.[3]"
where one may be able to form aqueous AlCl3 from the action of CaCl2 on Al2(SO4)3:
3 CaCl2 + Al2(SO4)3 -----) 3 CaSO4 (s) + 2 AlCl3
See also comments at http://www.google.com/patents/US5124139
[Edited on 7-6-2014 by AJKOER]
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CHRIS25
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Ajkoer@ Just to get back on track, It was the Aluminium Chlorosulphate "Crystal" I was trying to obtain and this can only be done via HCl, now if
anyone wants I can dig up the one and only reference in the whole world where this is said, This is what caught my attention. Otherwise it is common
knowledge that chlorosulphate is easy to make and is used by the water industry to floculate impurities.
Everyone Else@ I thought it was common knowledge from early 1st year school age that chlorine, hydrogen chloride and hydrogen sulphide gases were
poisonous based on our history lessons? Or has history been diluted and polluted
so much with the history of waste products and European union indoctrination?
‘Calcination… is such a Separation of Bodies by Fire, as makes ‘em easily reducible into Powder; and for that reason ‘tis call’d by some
Chymical Pulverization.’ (John Friend, Chymical Lectures London, 1712)
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. (William Penn 1644-1718)
The very nature of Random, Chance development precludes the existence of Order - strange that our organic and inorganic world is so well defined by
precision and law. (me)
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by CHRIS25 | | Ajkoer@ Just to get back on track, It was the Aluminium Chlorosulphate "Crystal" I was trying to obtain and this can only be done via HCl, now if
anyone wants I can dig up the one and only reference in the whole world where this is said, This is what caught my attention. Otherwise it is common
knowledge that chlorosulphate is easy to make and is used by the water industry to floculate impurities. |
Hmmm... it's far from clear whether the products used by the water industry correspond to the empirical formula AlClSO4. Mostly what are being
described in various patents are basic polyaluminium chlorosulphates. These contain OH ions. Their formulas would be something like
Al2Cl2SO4(OH)2 or similar...
'The only reference in the whole world' you are referring to is:
http://aluminium.atomistry.com/aluminium_sulphate.html
But interesting as the atomistry site generally is, atomistry isn't a very high authority source and doesn't provide any references to its assertion
re. AlClSO4 whatsoever. That reduces its credibility considerably. A peer reviewed source would not allow an entry on AlClSO4 without some credible
references to its existence or preparation.
Note also that we haven't proved the composition of our product yet either.
[Edited on 7-6-2014 by blogfast25]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | 2 AlCl2(OH) (aq) + MgSO4 (aq) ------) Mg(OH)2 (s) + Al2(SO4)Cl4
forming Aluminum chlorosulfate. Now, with respect to the preparation of AlCl2(OH), to quote from Wikipedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_chlorohydrate ):
"Aluminium chlorohydrate can be commercially manufactured by reacting aluminium with hydrochloric acid. A number of aluminium-containing raw materials
can be used, including aluminium metal, alumina trihydrate, aluminium chloride, aluminium sulfate and combinations of these. The products can contain
by-product salts, such as sodium/calcium/magnesium chloride or sulfate.[3]"
where one may be able to form aqueous AlCl3 from the action of CaCl2 on Al2(SO4)3:
3 CaCl2 + Al2(SO4)3 -----) 3 CaSO4 (s) + 2 AlCl3
See also comments at http://www.google.com/patents/US5124139 |
Do you have any references for that equation is it just another one of your 'pretty equations'?
"Aluminium chlorohydrate can be commercially manufactured by reacting aluminium with hydrochloric acid. A number of aluminium-containing raw materials
can be used, including aluminium metal, [...]" is plain nonsense. With HCl, Al goes all the way down to AlCl3. Unless they mean Al metal as a raw
material in the broadest sense of the word...
As regards AlCl3 from Al sulphate and CaCl2, fine if you want a product with residual CaSO4 in it (it has some solubility). BaCl2 would work much
better because BaSO4 is truly insoluble.
Still, why one would resort to displacement reactions when aqueous AlCl3 is so easy to prepare remains a mystery. Fear of HCl perhaps? If you can't
stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
[Edited on 7-6-2014 by blogfast25]
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AJKOER
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Blogfast:
Based on limited test so far, I have qualified the reaction to a maybe, perhaps requiring an elevation in pH. The original statement has been
appropriately edited in my thread.
I disagree [Edited typo] with your qualification of the Wikipedia statement as "nonsense". I actually found it appropriate with my limited
experimenting with aqueous Aluminum salts so far. For example, Aluminum carbonate hardly forms at all by the action of Na2CO3 on aqueous AlCl3, just
mostly Al2O3 with a possible touch of the Aluminum carbonate. Similarly, one can prepared aqueous Aluminum hypochlorite, but it readily decomposes
into Al2O3,..... Also, Aluminum chloride readily forms the basic salt. The chemistry of Aluminum is a little more unique, in my opinion.
[Edited on 8-6-2014 by AJKOER]
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blogfast25
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'dismiss agree'? That's a new one...
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aga
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Why argue if there's an experiment to be done ?
AJKOER : post the parameters for an experiment, do it, i will also do it and we can post the results.
Much more interesting than randon theorising.
If you have an idea, let's give it a whirl and Test it by experimentation.
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blogfast25
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Because it is worth arguing about a particular interpretation of theory, if that interpretation can lead to useless experimentation.
Not all experiments are worth doing. Experimentation is expensive, time consuming and often frustrating: resort to it when the hypothesis you're
testing stands at least a reasonable chance of being proved right. Otherwise conduct other, more worthy experiments.
You would not, like some alchemists tried, try to extract gold from urine, would you? We know that there's no gold in urine. It's a useless
experiment.
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