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Zombie
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Yeah, I said that wrong... the two are combined (not on a molecular level) into one new uniform product. Neither ethanol or water. Yet the two can
still be separated via distillation.
Again I DON'T know the jargon, but I know the mechanics.
For the beer can... I think you could do this on a miniature scale.
70% in the boiler, and 30% in the thumper,
One test or control run with NO thumper, and measure the ABV of the product.
New can o beer, and add the thumper. measure the abv.
The two important aspects are keeping the boiler input tube below the thumpers liquid level, and maintaining a broken stream from the output in both
experiments. '
Too fast, and it's a blow out or flooded column situation. Too slow ie: drops per second is fine.
I appreciate your taking an interest.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Dammit, I've just figured out how it works. My bad!
The EtOH get excited by quantum vibrations in the copper particulates. These quartz like resonance vortices add astral energy to the EtOH/H2O
moleculates.
When these supercharged EtoH phase products hit the thumper the anti-noise is generated, causing them to quantum oscillate and leave the thumper more
so than the protonium oxide strings.
Don't waste any accurate measuments on this, just get p*ssed as farts on the product and you'll see that it works!
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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You need to be on Crack for this to work right.
Otherwise it just sucks.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  | Dammit, I've just figured out how it works. My bad!
The EtOH get excited by quantum vibrations in the copper particulates. These quartz like resonance vortices add astral energy to the EtOH/H2O
moleculates.
When these supercharged EtoH phase products hit the thumper the anti-noise is generated, causing them to quantum oscillate and leave the thumper more
so than the protonium oxide strings.
Don't waste any accurate measuments on this, just get p*ssed as farts on the product and you'll see that it works!
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
I didn't really understand where or what you meant by "measurements" but the rest is 100% correct.
I can FINALLY go to bed!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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subsecret
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Sigh.
The still CANNOT be hotter 'than it needs to be': the BP of an EtOH/water mixture at atmospheric pressure depends ONLY on mol fraction (ABV if you
prefer) EtOH.
The thumper a 'fractionating column'??? Do you know what a fractionating column actually is?  |
But of course, the BP will increase as more alcohol is removed, so hotter vapor will move into the thumper.
The thumper is not an actual fractionating column, that was just an analogy for the re-distillation that happens there.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Awesomeness]
Fear is what you get when caution wasn't enough.
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Zombie
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Somebody please give this man a light!
You win the cigar.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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What goes in must come out.
The only way you can enhance EtOH content is to use a high EtOH end as liquid in the thumper (higher than the EtOH mol fraction in the still's
vapour). The incoming vapour then acts as a stripper. But that's 'cheating', in violation of the spirit of this thread and of course it changes
nothing to the overall mass balance either.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Fulmen
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I'll try reiterating my point once more. Forget everything about equilibriums and temperatures for a moment, OK. Lets say you have a simple 1stage
still and a batch of mash. You distill this according to all good practices and end up with one liter of 60% alcohol. With me so far? Simple, plain
distillation, nothing fancy. What has left the still? Roughly 600grams of ethanol and 400 grams of water, right?
Now do the same process again with a thumper added. What happens? If the still is run in the exact same manner, wouldn't the total output still be the
same 600g of alcohol and 400g of water? The final condensate might be more concentrated than the previous 60%, but only if the content of the thumper
is correspondingly less concentrated. As long as you don't return any condensate to the still or otherwise change the conditions of the still you
cannot change the amounts of alcohol and water that leaves the still.
Just think about it for a while. And don't counter with another explanation, tell me exactly where my logic fails.
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blogfast25
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The problem with these people is that just like the advocates (deliberate or inadvertent) of perpetual motion machines they refuse to see the
blindingly obvious.
You can't argue with faith.
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blogfast25
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What is also quite interesting if you look at the 'recommendations' of thumper advocates is that they hopelessly contradict each other.
"The thumper has to be heated." "No, it has to be cooled."
"The thumper has to be empty first." "No, the thumper has to be half-filled with mash."
"The thumper liquid has to be mash." "No, the thumper liquid has to be high ethanol tail ends."
Without any experimental verification anyone can claim anything, of course.
Which is also what awaits anyone who designs a decent experiment: the thumper, according to the faithful, will be "too round/too square/too
full/too empty/too hot/too cold/too tall/too squat/not made of copper/made of wood/you're just an elitist/a hillbilly hater"...
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Dr.Bob
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While the descriptions are not great here, it is obvious to me that the thumper is acting like a steam distillation. I have done those before, and
if you pipe steam into an unheated vessel, you will heat it, with the energy coming from the first vessel, which will require heat input. So there
is nothing violating the rules of thermodynmics there. This is acting as an extra "plate" or step in a distillation.
And I know that you can distill ethanol with a surprisingly short distillation column, using the sieve plates or similar vigreux type column, as
stated, as I have done it before and analyzed the resultant ethanol from it, which was quite close to azetrope. I think that people are just not
describing the stills well, as they do have a fractionation column involved in most cases, the thumper is just another variation on the extra reflux
point.
"Can't we all just get along"
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morganbw
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | What is also quite interesting if you look at the 'recommendations' of thumper advocates is that they hopelessly contradict each other.
"The thumper has to be heated." "No, it has to be cooled."
"The thumper has to be empty first." "No, the thumper has to be half-filled with mash."
"The thumper liquid has to be mash." "No, the thumper liquid has to be high ethanol tail ends."
Without any experimental verification anyone can claim anything, of course.
Which is also what awaits anyone who designs a decent experiment: the thumper, according to the faithful, will be "too round/too square/too
full/too empty/too hot/too cold/too tall/too squat/not made of copper/made of wood/you're just an elitist/a hillbilly hater"...
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Chill just a bit. You present a very valid case but please do not toss the thumper just yet. Surely someone here can/will do an article on if it works
as a second distillation or not (Zombie, sir?)
Many years ago, I had thought it was simply a puke can to catch bumping.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by morganbw | You present a very valid case but please do not toss the thumper just yet. Surely someone here can/will do an article on if it works as a second
distillation or not (Zombie, sir?)
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If I present a valid case then give me one reason NOT to dump the thumper. You're being illogical.
As regards Zombie, he's been writing 'articles' (of faith) on the thumper by the dozen here.
Dr.Bob, on the other hand, hasn't even read the thread.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Fulmen
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Not exactly. in a multistage distillation the liquid from a stage is continuously fed back into the previous stage, without this return the term
"fractionate condensing" is better description of what happens.
| Quote: | | the thumper is just another variation on the extra reflux point |
A reflux involves returning part of the condensate back to the previous stage. This can of course be done with the content of the thumper, but that
will require extra energy. It's not that a thumper can't be used to produce a more concentrated product, it's the claim that this can be done "for
free" that is wrong.
[Edited on 16-2-15 by Fulmen]
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blogfast25
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This not an extra plate. On a plate vapour leaves upwards and liquid phase is constantly removed. This is not the case here.
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Etaoin Shrdlu
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Okay, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.
When you distill your...crude alcohol?, you wind up with a higher concentration of alcohol in the product. This is undisputed.
Is a thumper not a second distillation stage that will concentrate it further?
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blogfast25
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I'm quite convinced that a thumper is in fact slightly detrimental to the process. At a very minimum it will delay things and it also loses energy
which has to be accounted for.
Insulate it perfectly, ΣΔH = 0, and it acts like a steam pipe.
Cool it (air, for instance) and you'll have to add the energy loss.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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blogfast25
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Etaoin, you come very late to this discussion (no criticism intended). I'm loathe to have to repeat all the arguments already made against thumpers.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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blogfast25
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Ask yourself why (as a secondary type argument), if enriching the volatile component in a binary distillation is so simple, we're not all doing this?
Why oil refineries aren't jam packed with thumpers?
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu | Okay, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.
When you distill your...crude alcohol?, you wind up with a higher concentration of alcohol in the product. This is undisputed.
Is a thumper not a second distillation stage that will concentrate it further? |
Yes! Using the heat supplied from the boiler.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | I'm quite convinced that a thumper is in fact slightly detrimental to the process. At a very minimum it will delay things and it also loses energy
which has to be accounted for.
Insulate it perfectly, ΣΔH = 0, and it acts like a steam pipe.
Cool it (air, for instance) and you'll have to add the energy loss.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
You're on to something...
IF it is 100% efficient, and insulated it will do NOTHING except pass the vapor thru.
It is in the act of condensation, and re vaporizing the the new vapor is more concentrated. (pure)
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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morganbw
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by morganbw | You present a very valid case but please do not toss the thumper just yet. Surely someone here can/will do an article on if it works as a second
distillation or not (Zombie, sir?)
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If I present a valid case then give me one reason NOT to dump the thumper. You're being illogical.
As regards Zombie, he's been writing 'articles' (of faith) on the thumper by the dozen here.
Dr.Bob, on the other hand, hasn't even read the thread.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
You presented a Hypothesis, well sir (you know what is required )
You have to attempt to disprove it
I love theory as well as anyone and am not yet in disagreement your ideas. Empirical data has always been my diet of choice, not just thought
experiments.
This is pointed to you as well Zombie ( I respect data obtained by careful design of experiment way more that I respect opinions which have not been
tested nor proven ((clearly enough)) ) even when they seem to be backed by physical laws.
Chemist/physicist are like lawyers. Help us understand these physical laws. It is not always black and white.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | Ask yourself why (as a secondary type argument), if enriching the volatile component in a binary distillation is so simple, we're not all doing this?
Why oil refineries aren't jam packed with thumpers?
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
If the earth were round, why wouldn't we try to sail around it?
I think you can use a thumper on most simple distillations but the compounds have to be close to the same boiling points. Too far apart, and the heat
transferred is not enough. Too close together, and simple distillation does not work.
Perhaps it is the oddity of the BP range that makes this work?
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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blogfast25
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Higher up I've given the example of NOT having to try and disprove the hypothesis in the case of the chemical conversion of lead to gold.
It's not necessary to conduct experiments re. the chemical conversion of lead to gold because First Principles prove beyond reasonable doubt that it
can't be done.
Equally I consider 'thumpers don't work' to have been proved from First Principles.
Having said that, if my confrere (who will remain unnamed until he fully consents) agrees to carry out the experiment then we will. I'm currently off
ill and couldn't do it if they paid me for it, sadly.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Sorry to hear that Blog. (Illness)
I'm sure someone here that is credible will throw down, and run this.
[Edited on 16-2-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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