| Pages:
1
..
12
13
14
15
16
..
30 |
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  | | Aga, I think you have the right idea. Moonshining is a batch process and the boys will shut the still down at a certain point to maximize the product
to their specifications. |
100% YES!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Someone mentioned that this could be solved with a can of beer.
I think i just did.
At the very least, the basis for a definitive experiment is now available.
Distillation, EtOH conc of distillate measured say every 10ml or so.
Distillation with Thumper, EtOH conc of distillate measured the same.
Results would show one way or the other what the Thumper does or does not do.
Get on with it ! |
That was me, and yes. That is all that needs to be done.
In all fairness the process must match real world application. Meaning no supper heated flasks, and uncontrolled output rates.
The goal is to reduce temps to manage water vaporization, and maintain the highest ABV output through the run.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie |
It depends on which part of the batch process you are in. In the latter part you are right and that is likely where the boys will shut down the
still.
In the beginning of the distillation the vapor from the pot will be richer in ethanol than the thumper liquid. |
From the very second one atom of alch vapor passes into the thumper is is always a matter of the thumper being ahead.
The run is stopped at 20% ABV from the thumper, and the thumper , and boiler should be fairly close in ABV because most everything is gone but the
thumper will always be higher during the run
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | More than that : they developed a Time Function, where they collect distillates at differing Times into the distillations.
Each Timed portion represents a different EtOH concentration.
Heads, Flow and Tails were the billyclue.
Yeehar !
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by aga] |
Correct.
Fore shots are the most volatile. Acetone, and like compounds
Heads are a mix of fores, and Ethanol
Hearts are mostly pure ethanol / water
Tails are les volitle Keytones, fusel oils, ect
Fores are used around the house, de-greaser... heads are for lighting camp fires, ect... Hearts is where the money is... tails are for flavoring or
modifying flavor profiles or just dumped in the dirt.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Wrong. For our purpose they start of the same. Once the first vapor leaves the pot, the thump is richer, and always will be.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | Thinking about it, if my drunken theory is right, the Levels of the distillation pot and the thumper are irrelevant : they need not be at the same
height at all.
A quick search on moonshine thumpers found a few images of 'stills where the thumper pot is suspended in the air, above the output of the 'still pot.
Heating of the Thumper should also be undesireable, as you'd want as much of the EtOH from the 'still pot to reach it, and condense in there before
Thumper starts boiling, which rules out thumper heating being desirable. |
Yes sir. No extra heat is required. Heating it negates the partial condenser effect.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Crowfjord | How do you guys plan on measuring ethanol concentration in your experiments? Depending on how small of a scale you're working with, it might be too
little for a hydrometer.
I think I might join in on conducting an experiment. Maybe. I've been considering making some rum the past few weeks anyway. |
If you're gonna make drinking liquor of ANY decent quality you need at least a 5 gallon boiler, and comparable thumper.
Anything smaller is just going to give yo raw liquor, and little separation of fores / heads / hearts / tails/.
Nasty stuff.
For this experiment perhaps a liter or 1000ml / 500ml rig will suffice. 750ml wash in the boiler, and 250ml in the thumper.
That should produce around 8 ml if stopped at 20% from a pot distillation, and 6ish ml from a thump distillation.
Tough to say.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by aga |
The actual accuracy would not be too important, as it would be a Comparison of straight distilled w% vs thumper distilled w%.
|
Correct. The absolute values are less important. Relative but statistically relevant numbers are far more important.
Absolute Values opens a can of worms like the use of Absolute Material Standards. Not easy. Big Science territory.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
Agreed. Comparative numbers are all that is required.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
The run is stopped at 20% ABV from the thumper, and the thumper , and boiler should be fairly close in ABV because most everything is gone but the
thumper will always be higher during the run |
If the boiler is charged with 10wt% ethanol (0.043 mole fraction ethanol) then its vapor will be 0.33 mole fraction ethanol (56wt%) according to the
VLE diagram.
56wt% >> 20%ABV
Did you misread my earlier statement shown below?
"In the beginning of the distillation the vapor from the pot will be richer in ethanol than the thumper liquid."
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Ok, welcome back.
No gripes except with that quote. We'll be using say a V (volume) pot still and a V/2 (half that volume) thumper. If the total feedstock was say A,
how should we allocate that over both? Example: 75 % in pot still, 25 % in thumper?
It'll be a small set up, probably 500 ml pot still, 250 ml thumper. Insulation on the primary vapour line, slow distillation.
Final distillate condensing will not interfere with anything, I guarantee you that.
Set up will be revealed before any distillations take place.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
That sounds fine. I would say 400ml in the boiler, and 125ml in the thumper.
One practice run to learn the rig, and I think this will do the job.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
And because we're contrarians in this part of the world, I now have to go to bed, stomach full of lobster! 
'Hostilities' to resume tomorrow.
Night night. Don't let the thumpers bite. |
Sorry I missed ya!
See you in the am.. Hey... who am I talking to?
Never mind.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
|
|
I'm wondering if that because of the huge scale down factor the still outlet piping and the thumper should be well insulated?
Did you miss my previous post/question?
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
|
|
|
Chemosynthesis
International Hazard
Posts: 1071
Registered: 26-9-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
DeltaH, thank you. Extremely useful to have graphs. It's probably a personal deficit of mine, but I hated even using the lever rule back in school, so
as soon I need to start correcting for activity coefficients or the like, I am not the best person for that at all. I should definitely get that
software and learn how to use it.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
The run is stopped at 20% ABV from the thumper, and the thumper , and boiler should be fairly close in ABV because most everything is gone but the
thumper will always be higher during the run |
If the boiler is charged with 10wt% ethanol (0.043 mole fraction ethanol) then its vapor will be 0.33 mole fraction ethanol (56wt%) according to the
VLE diagram.
56wt% >> 20%ABV
Did you misread my earlier statement shown below?
"In the beginning of the distillation the vapor from the pot will be richer in ethanol than the thumper liquid."
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Magpie] |
Yes I did mis read that. You are correct. The vapor leaving the pot WILL be richer than the liquid in the thumper.
There will be a point where this equalizes, and reverses. That is approx 3/4 of the way thru the run, and nearing the end or "tails" production
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | I'm wondering if that because of the huge scale down factor the still outlet piping and the thumper should be well insulated?
Did you miss my previous post/question?
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by Magpie] |
I'm not sure about this.
The scale may play a factor...
I'm too burnt out to learn thermo dynamics tonight so maybe, if we keep this in mind for after the results come in.
I'm fairly certain the issue will be minimal and, the results if even 2 - 3 % should prove out the idea.
I expect to see around 25% increase in ABV
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
macckone
International Hazard
Posts: 2160
Registered: 1-3-2013
Location: Over a mile high
Member Is Offline
Mood: Electrical
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | | Quote: Originally posted by macckone | To answer a couple of blogfast's questions. The usual ratio is 1:3 from the original link. Assuming
that the starting and final abv are the same for the pot and thumper that would give 33% enrichment.
note that is simple mass transfer and doesn't account for heat transfer. Starting off with a cold
thumper seems to make more sense thermodynamically. Initially the stream will condense in the
thumper producing a higher abv in the thumper. Then the stream will start to pass through with the
water condensing out and alcohol being absorbed into the vapor stream. Once it reaches steady
state, the amount of water condensed must equal the amount of alcohol evaporated at a heat value
level. Note this is lower than when the thumper is absorbing heat. If the thumper is losing heat
to the environment the enrichment could be greater but never more than the mass value. Hypothetically
the thumper could be alcohol depleted at the end of the run yielding a higher gain than 33%. |
My simulations showed that a cold thumper does no enriching, enrichment only starts from about 73C under my conditions where it peaks rapidly, then
decreases with increasing temperature. In really, the thumper would operate somewhere above 90C I would imagine and reach that pretty quickly. I
would't proof a distillate sample before the thumper gets hot and reaches pseudo steady state.
[Edited on 17-2-2015 by deltaH] |
Enrichment when cold is of the liquid in the thumper not vapor, because little vapor will pass through until the thumper reaches the azeotrope BP.
Then you get an enriched mix that falls rapidly to steady state. Basically we are saying the same thing.
|
|
|
deltaH
Dangerous source of unreferenced speculation
Posts: 1663
Registered: 30-9-2013
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: Heavily protonated
|
|
Magpie and others asked about the x-y diagram a while earlier.
The x-axis refers to the mole fraction of ethanol in the liquid phase, the y-axis refers to the mole fraction of also ethanol in the vapour
phase.
*********************
The curve is the phase equilibrium for ethanol in the ethanol-water system between vapour ethanol and liquid ethanol.
The y=x diagonal line refers to the operating line for distillation under perfect conditions (infinitely large still or a multistage fractionator
operating at infinite reflux/boilup ratio's and infinitely big).
Drawing the steps as I've done gives the thermodynamic minimum number of stages required to achieve a particular separation. Real life is
typically twice that , as a very crude rule-of-thumb, because of inefficiencies. It's a really quick way to estimate if you want to go from say
0.05 mole fraction ethanol to say 0.5, how many stages you're going to need.
The boiler counts as a stage, thereafter each tray in a column also counts as extra stages. A thumper is at best only a partial stage, so still plus
three thumpers does not equal three thermodynamic perfect steps (NB!)
For a column that operates with proper reflux, you can construct so called McCabe-Thiele diagrams for the seperation. You then get extra operating
lines whose angles are determined by the reflux ratio, the boilup ratio and also a feed line (called the q-line).
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCabe%E2%80%93Thiele_method
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by deltaH]
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
All of that is correct Delta.
If I may make one modification...
The thump IS another stage or distillation, in as much as the boiler is considered a distillation.
The exact same process is occurring in the thumper as is in the boiler.
The only difference is the thumper now contains a higher mole fraction, and requires less energy to vaporize than the boiler.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Oh yeah, it is a far cry from the efficiency of a plate by all measures.
It is the interaction of vapor / liquid that strips EtOH from the liquid (beside evaporation).
In my columns I uses a combination of sieve plates w/ 357- 1.5mm holes per plate, and .6 stainless mesh "structured packing".
Combined I run the equivalent of 18 stages or plates in a 7 foot tall combined concentric column / boiler. It produces approx 5.5LPH at azeotrope.
Different beast.
It is all about vapor / liquid interaction. Thumpers do this in the most simplistic fashion, and I'm sure they ( operators) never quite understood why
or more complex or efficient stills would have come out of the mountains / woods.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
deltaH
Dangerous source of unreferenced speculation
Posts: 1663
Registered: 30-9-2013
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: Heavily protonated
|
|
Oops I accidentally erased my post when I meant to erase the image in an edit, but basically the post above zom's should read something like:
Yes, it is a stage, I just want it understood that it's a much smaller step of the phase diagram than an ideal stage (and the still's step for that
matter). So two thumpers and a still does not make three ideal steps etc.
I'm just emphasising this for those who do not have distillation knowledge and working with such diagrams. Not most of those participating in the
thread though.
|
|
|
deltaH
Dangerous source of unreferenced speculation
Posts: 1663
Registered: 30-9-2013
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline
Mood: Heavily protonated
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | Oh yeah, it is a far cry from the efficiency of a plate by all measures.
It is the interaction of vapor / liquid that strips EtOH from the liquid (beside evaporation).
In my columns I uses a combination of sieve plates w/ 357- 1.5mm holes per plate, and .6 stainless mesh "structured packing".
Combined I run the equivalent of 18 stages or plates in a 7 foot tall combined concentric column / boiler. It produces approx 5.5LPH at azeotrope.
Different beast.
It is all about vapor / liquid interaction. Thumpers do this in the most simplistic fashion, and I'm sure they ( operators) never quite understood why
or more complex or efficient stills would have come out of the mountains / woods. |
I get what you're saying fully.
The thumper seems an elegantly simple solution to getting the job done and if so, then hat's off (as I've said before).
Whoever carries out this experiment, please afix a cutout of the following image on the thumper jar as the official mascot of this thread
"Thumper" from "Bambie"
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by deltaH]
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
I've been wondering who was going to post that Thumper first.
14 pages, and we get a real working thumper. Whew...
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | | Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Ok, welcome back.
No gripes except with that quote. We'll be using say a V (volume) pot still and a V/2 (half that volume) thumper. If the total feedstock was say A,
how should we allocate that over both? Example: 75 % in pot still, 25 % in thumper?
It'll be a small set up, probably 500 ml pot still, 250 ml thumper. Insulation on the primary vapour line, slow distillation.
Final distillate condensing will not interfere with anything, I guarantee you that.
Set up will be revealed before any distillations take place.
[Edited on 18-2-2015 by blogfast25] |
That sounds fine. I would say 400ml in the boiler, and 125ml in the thumper.
One practice run to learn the rig, and I think this will do the job.
|
Fair enough. Practice run seems fair.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by deltaH | Real life is typically twice that , as a very crude rule-of-thumb, because of inefficiencies. It's a really quick way to estimate if you want
to go from say 0.05 mole fraction ethanol to say 0.5, how many stages you're going to need.
|
A minor gripe. That statement is fairly meaningless.
Fractionated columns in industry are designed using fairly accurate design criteria to make them fit-for-purpose.
Actual column performance is then determined mainly as the Number of Theoretical Plates (as well as other parameters) (McCabe Thiele, in essence).
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
..
12
13
14
15
16
..
30 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
