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Author: Subject: For sale: Lithium Aluminum Hydride 99% (pelletized)
chief
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 00:28


After I looked it up I must say: It's much more rare than I thought ...
==> but still cheap as sh... : "Lithium Carbonate large contracts in March 09 $2.80/lb to $3.00/lb. " as this source says:
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9722.html
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 02:39


Quote: Originally posted by chief  
25 g for 60 EUR ?
Li rare ? ?? It's one of the most abundant elements of them all ... ; how many g will be in a standard Li-battery ??


And that is a current concern - the demand for lithium for batteries of all sizes. Yes, you can extract it from seawater, but for considerably more expense that exiting sources. And you can mine certain rocks as sources of lithium, but the demand is such that the mountains of waste would be a problem.

If you want to make your fortune, devise a way to economically extract lithium from sea water before someone else does the same.

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chief
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 03:37


Extract from seawater ? That reminds me on when everybody tried to extract the gold ...
==> ... lot's of gold in seawater, each km³ has 10 or more kg ... :D

==================

Anyhow as I posted above: Li2CO3 is at 5-6 $/kg, which is quite cheap ..., even when the masses of the carbon and oxygen are taken into account ... ...

Besides: Soemwhere I saw photos of how to get the Li-foil aout of fresh photo-batteries ...
==> Just can be slaughtered ... ; this gives elemental Li, that could be reacted with the Al and the H ...
==> ... so the above price can be beaten by the order of a magnitude or two ...; and 80% ofthe mass will be made up by the aluminum ...

[Edited on 5-5-2010 by chief]
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 08:17


Well, I'm afraid there is very little Li in a battery. Under a gram for sure. That would boost Li alone at more then 1000 bucks/kg assuming a battery like this is around 1 dollar/piece (the real price being probably under 50 dollars/kg of elemental Li).

Then you have the difficulty of working with Li. It really is difficult, because it reacts with N so you have to use very dry Ar. Li fires are probably the worst (almost NOTHING will put off such a fire, except copper powder). It burns down thru stuff like azbestos and concrete.

Good luck beating the price.

After all this is just theory; most of us are just a bunch of home chemists. If I were to pay for my chems I'd be longtime broke with the current prices and I'm sure most of us are the same.
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 14:32


Au in seawater: approximately 6x10-13 g/g
1 km^3 = 10^9 m^3 = 10^12 l = 10^15 cm^3
so Au/km^3 ~= 600g/km^3 - not even a kilogram!

Li is 10^5 times more abundant, so that's like 10 tons per km^3 or 100g per m^3.

If you search for "magnesium lithium brine composition" there are reports from this year of high lithium content brines:

Orocobre mining in Argentina:

Quote:
Extensive pit sampling on the Company’s Salinas Grandes properties show over approximately 12,000 hectares of salar nucleus:

- Lithium (Li) grades averaging1,409 mg/l Li (range from 541mg/l to a high of 4,237mg/l Li) and
- Potassium (K) grades averaging 16,394 mg/l potassium (range from 5,484 to a high of 49,720 mg/l K).
- The magnesium to lithium ratio is also very low with an average value of 2.6.


Coal mine brines, oil well brines, etc. are often much more concentrated than seawater and some have crystallized out halite (NaCl) so the relative abundance of rarer ions is greater. Also Rb is twice as abundant as Li and it's expensive, too, as are Br and I, all more abundant than Li, so a good comprehensive extraction scheme could be as simple as large open pans in a hot dry climate and careful attention towards fractional crystallization rates.

So are any members in North Africa, the dry part of Southern Asia, etc.? There have to be places where wells were drilled only to find salt water. A few small solar powered pumps, some plastic lined shallow pits, hydrometer or three, thermometers, and some shovels... chemistry the lazy man's way. The NaCl drops out first, then Ca, etc... K is quite salable for fertilizer, too. Getting some distilled fresh water out of the mess could water the garden & the workers ;)

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entropy51
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 15:17


Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
LAH, like sodium or iodine, can be used to make drugs or a thousand other things, and is a very common laboratory reagent.

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug
I agree completely with Management.

However LAH is Watched. Just so you know.
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 17:00


Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
LAH, like sodium or iodine, can be used to make drugs or a thousand other things, and is a very common laboratory reagent.

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug
I agree completely with Management.

However LAH is Watched. Just so you know.


Three contradictions in one post, plus a remark that the poster agrees with all of the. Good old SM
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entropy51
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 17:31


Yeah, Len1, we need more of that on SM!
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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 23:23


Quote: Originally posted by len1  
Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  
Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
LAH, like sodium or iodine, can be used to make drugs or a thousand other things, and is a very common laboratory reagent.

Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug
I agree completely with Management.

However LAH is Watched. Just so you know.


Three contradictions in one post, plus a remark that the poster agrees with all of the. Good old SM

It quite sad to see how low can you go. In order to get aggressive and abusive or whatever other state of mind gives you pleasure, you are ready to post all kind of stupidities. The worst is that you make it so terribly obvious that you are aware that what you post is nonsense. Surely, you are not trying to convince us that, as a native English speaker, you do not know the meaning of words "can" and "required"?
I'm pretty sure I'm much more competent when it comes to knowledge about what reagents are used in the synthesis of illegal drugs, as I read most there is to read. I can assure you that nobody sane of mind would use LiAlH4 for mass production of street drugs. I have yet to see one such example. I have not read forensic reports mentioning this reagent as something commonly used. There are some chemists who use this reagent for the reduction of certain amides and nitrostyrenes to obtain psychoactive tryptamines and phenylethylamines (there are plenty of examples in the literature), but they can buy it legally without much trouble. Beyond the few grams batches it becomes irrational to use it. Thus the "cooks" would avoid it because it could kill them, and then, why would they use it? It is not needed when there are plenty enough alternatives (safer and cheaper!).

[Edited on 6/5/2010 by Nicodem]




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[*] posted on 5-5-2010 at 23:34


Nicodem, do you realize that you've just publicly admited that you belong to the "*very* dope interested" home chemists class? Now, what's wrong with that?

Oh, and I'm sure you never thought about making money out of your knowledge. Nor did you try any drugs at all. And "Spun" must be one of your favorite movies.

Not to be wrongly understood, you know.
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[*] posted on 6-5-2010 at 03:55


I can't believe that in a chem-forum someone could have the idea to say Li were above 1000 $/kg ...

==> As I mentioned above the price for Li2CO3 is around 5$/kg ; 1 kg of Li2CO3 contains 93.93 g Li ...
==> those 93.93 g of Li give 513.649 g of LiAlH4 ...

So 1 lb of LiAlH4 costs 5$ in material, and some production-efforts ...

================

Production is not too hard either:

4 LiH + AlCl3 ==> LiAlH4 + 3 LiCl



[Edited on 6-5-2010 by chief]
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len1
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[*] posted on 6-5-2010 at 04:16


Quote:

And LiAlH4 is not even something required to make any illegal drug


I interpreted that sentence in the only way to make it actually contain some useful meaning. That is 'required' meaning 'of use'. As such it contradicts Polverone's statement, as well as the fact that its illegal to sell in many coutries and is watched.

If you meant it in the narrow sense 'required' = essential, then your sentence is empty - it applies to every chemical apart from the elements

[Edited on 6-5-2010 by len1]
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[*] posted on 6-5-2010 at 13:04


"For sale: Lithium Aluminum Hydride 99% (pelletized)


25g: 60 EUR
50g: 100 EUR
100g: 180 EUR
200g: 350 EUR
500g: 650 EUR
1000g: 1200 EUR

Shipping everywhere via HAZMAT at buyers expense."


Looks like a straightforward offer to sell. Have questions about "local" legality of purchase and importation? Try a U2U to the seller.
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[*] posted on 6-5-2010 at 15:55


Quote: Originally posted by zed  

Looks like a straightforward offer to sell. Have questions about "local" legality of purchase and importation? Try a U2U to the seller.


Nuff said.

The price is quite reasonable, as this is not the "95% powder" quality also offered by Alfa, Acros etc. but purely white pellets. Anyone got a problem with that? Tell your momma...




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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 01:34


Quote:

its illegal to sell in many coutries and is watched.
Before you start posting bullshit why don't you try backing up your statements with verifiable facts. Telling us which countries have laws against LAH would be a nice start not to mention helpful and informative.
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 02:59


Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve  
Quote: Originally posted by zed  

Looks like a straightforward offer to sell. Have questions about "local" legality of purchase and importation? Try a U2U to the seller.


Nuff said.

The price is quite reasonable, as this is not the "95% powder" quality also offered by Alfa, Acros etc. but purely white pellets. Anyone got a problem with that? Tell your momma...


Price is not reasonable: You go to you "momma" ...

1 kg has a cost of 10 $ for the Li and a few bucks more for the reacting with Al and H ...

==> Whoever pays 1200 for it ruins the prices for everyone else ...

======================

Of course it would be completely legal to burn even 1 000 000 $, in some fire ... ...
==> ... but it would not be called "reasonable" ...

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by chief]
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 03:10


Chief: I think you may be underestimating the price of lithium quite significantly... where I am, a standard ingot (117g I think) costs about £60; bear in mind that 4LiH + AlCl3 => LiAlH4 + 3LiCl; so you'd need at least 4x this much lithium. Add to that the cost of electricity/gas to heat the reaction 2Li + H2 => 2LiH, and then the same for 4Al + 6Cl2 => 4AlCl3, and then getting the crude product to 99% pelletised (I suspect several recrystallisations from glyme/diglyme and inert atmosphere of course... Its an expensive process for an expensive but valuable chemical. Of course the price is not quite £1200/kg to make it, but there has to be some profit margin to make it worthwhile for the chemical companys.

If you don't like the price, go make your own kilo of LAH for less. Its slightly more expensive than what I've seen before, but as steve mentions it's 99% pelletised; this means purer than the other commercial stuff, and much easier handling (much less pyrophoric dust kicking about!)

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by DJF90]
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 03:28


Quote: Originally posted by DJF90  
Chief: I think you may be underestimating the price of lithium quite significantly... where I am, a standard ingot (117g I think) costs about £60; bear in mind that 4LiH + AlCl3 => LiAlH4 + 3LiCl; so you'd need at least 4x this much lithium. Add to that the cost of electricity/gas to heat the reaction 2Li + H2 => 2LiH, and then the same for 4Al + 6Cl2 => 4AlCl3, and then getting the crude product to 99% pelletised (I suspect several recrystallisations from glyme/diglyme and inert atmosphere of course... Its an expensive process for an expensive but valuable chemical. Of course the price is not quite £1200/kg to make it, but there has to be some profit margin to make it worthwhile for the chemical companys.

If you don't like the price, go make your own kilo of LAH for less. Its slightly more expensive than what I've seen before, but as steve mentions it's 99% pelletised; this means purer than the other commercial stuff, and much easier handling (much less pyrophoric dust kicking about!)

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by DJF90]


Maybe the reaction gives 1 mole of the LiAlH4 and 3 of LiCl; but still there would be the Li in the Cloride left ...

The price of 10$/kg for Li I calculated from the carbonate-price, see here : http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9722.html ...; it's _that_ cheap ... !

Besides: If 1 kg of Li could store electricity for the price of 1200 $, then this would be the second densest form of energy-storage, only superseeded by nucler fuels ... :D

117g for 60$: That's approx. the price of silver, not something as abundant as Li ...

[Edited on 7-5-2010 by chief]
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 03:31


Even if the carbonate costs you $10/kg for the mass of Li it contains, that in NO WAY represents the actual cost of extraction of the Lithium, especially 10kgs worth! Think how many moles that is, and then how many faradays you'd need (assuming that you have 100% current efficiency, which will be far from the truth) and then you'll see how much you're electricity bill will cost. Not a pretty sight I'm sure. And even if you can recover the Li from the lithium chloride byproduct, this involves further electrolysis and thus more incurred cost!
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 05:09


@DJF90: Why don't you just calculate it ?
==> 1 lb of carbonate costs 2.80-3.50 $ ... ; there you go, result will be the same as mine ...

That's the nice thing in science: Numbers rule ... :D
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 06:01


You're still massively underestimating costs and effort... otherwise if it were so cheap and easy to do everyone would have done it by now eh? so until you show that a kilo can be made for a little under $20 I think I'll stick with steve!
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 06:38


No, _you_ overestimate production-costs:

==>Take Li2CO3 (2.80$/lb), react it to the chloride
==> melt this at 615 [Cels] and electrolyze the melt, plenty of literature out there, standard-way ...

There you have the Li ... :D

Faraday-constant is approx. 95000 As/mol; 1 mol of Li is 6.94 g, so 1 kg is 144 mole ... == 1.3686788e7 As

Those 1.3686788e7 As might have to be delivered at 4 or 5 Volts ... which makes 6.8433944e7 Ws OR 19 kWh ...

So the price of 1 kg Li is 10 $ + the cost of 19 kWh ...
==> Thereby maybe 12-15 $, depending on the tarif ...


=================

But: You don't even need 1 kg of Li for 1 kg of LiAlH4; 1 kg of Li is sufficient for the manufacture of 5.468 kg LiAlH4 :D

Now that reduces the price to below 10 $/kg ... right ?



[Edited on 7-5-2010 by chief]
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 09:26


If you think LAH is priced unfairly, you should see the markup on paclitaxel! Made only of H, C, N, and O but those gangsters at Aldrich want $29 for 1 mg. I think if you make it starting from water, air, and coal you can bypass their outrageous price gouging.



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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 11:19


Hmmm, I always wondered how comes raw sodium is like 100 dollars/pound and yet there are plenty around willing to buy it. Stupid them, salt it's under 1 dollar/kg :P

Unless you try to PRODUCE something as len suggested, you are talking out of your arse.
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[*] posted on 7-5-2010 at 14:32


Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
If you think LAH is priced unfairly, you should see the markup on paclitaxel! Made only of H, C, N, and O but those gangsters at Aldrich want $29 for 1 mg. I think if you make it starting from water, air, and coal you can bypass their outrageous price gouging.


Thats no adequate comparison: LiAlH4 is a simple stuff, can be made by few steps ...

100 $ per kg sodium ?
==> Who wants some ? I provide it ... ; but first I'm gonna check legislation ... : Would it be allowed to sell it ...; how to transport it etc. ...

Anyone willing to buy the LiAlH4 for 250/kg ?
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