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weiming1998
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Quote: Originally posted by Neil  | From wiki
"Pyrite has been used since classical times to manufacture copperas, or iron sulfate. Iron pyrite was heaped up and allowed to weather as described
above (an early form of heap leaching). The acidic runoff from the heap was then boiled with iron to produce iron sulfate. In the 15th century, such
leaching began to replace the burning of sulfur as a source of Sulfuric Acid. By the 19th century, it had become the dominant method."
For our next trick we will knock the edges off a square and attach it to a cart.
Maybe I'm daft but I thought that heating Fe + 2S gave FeS2
The bacteria that use sulphate as an energy source leave behind the iron hydroxides, they live on the wastes of bacteria that feed actual sulfides.
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FeS2 is formed by Fe/oxides+S under pressure. So it is very common in the earth's crust, but not very easily synthesized. The amount of H2SO4 formed
would be consumed in two side reactions: The reaction: 4FeSO4+ 2H2SO4+ O2?===> 2Fe2(SO4)3+2H2O will consume some of the reactants, unless Fe2(SO4)3
is already formed by the bacteria by 4FeS2+15O2+2H2O===>2Fe2(SO4)2+ 2H2SO4 (so hard to balance these equations!) Then the bacteria consumes the
iron sulfate by Fe2(SO4)3+6H2O====> Fe(OH)3+3 H2SO4. The other possible reaction would have numerous side-reactions destroying the H2SO4.
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by Neil | | Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 | Also, if I tried to talk about those pool workers about how I am doing home chemistry and need sulfuric acid from the low- fume pool acids, then they
will either:
.Sell nothing to me
.Sell things to me and act normal, then ring the police.
.Sell nothing to me AND kick me out of the shop.
.Sell nothing to me, then ring the police.
. Actually having a discussion, and selling me SOME of the things.
. Lecture about how these things are dangerous and telling me to go play/get a girlfriend (like you people have done) |
"Hello kind sirs, I like working with copper and making copper inventions/jewellery/art and I really need some sulphuric acid for my pickling bath."
Also check around for jewellery supply shops and welding shops. Look for pickling solution. |
I suck at lying though. I even got nervous last time buying the pool chemicals, and all I had to say was "yeah!" and listing some of the uses for the
chemical.
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AJKOER
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OK, so heap leaching as a mode to H2SO4, given its historic significance, is a valid method of Sulfuric acid production.
Perhaps, however, not the 1st to be recommended and yes, we are indeed turning back the clock!
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER |
Actually, I think both Neil and Weiming1998 are correct. I have seen the reaction written to "completion". Here is an example, based on a quick
search:
12FeSO4 +3 O2 +6 H2O = 4Fe2 (SO4) 3 +4 Fe (OH) 3
LINK (hit translate unless you do speak Chinese):
http://wenwen.soso.com/z/q168566732.htm
But, the partial reaction (to H2SO4) does occur as I have seen the reaction (see above citation in "Hydrometallurgy in extraction processes" by C. K.
Gupta, T. K. Mukherjee, page 60), and also H2SO4 production is clearly cited in the article as an environmental hazard.
Remember the reaction time is in months!
[Edited on 24-1-2012 by AJKOER] |
So the Fe2(SO4)3 and H2SO4 generating reaction might be a side reaction! But the large amounts of Fe(OH)3 would destroy it easily since that is the
main reaction. I would end up with a pool of Fe2(SO4)3, Fe(OH)3 and dead bacteria.
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Neil
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Why lie? As a home chemist you are inevitably going to want to make things that real labs can order. Making a still or copper retort is fun and you
actually will want a pickling bath.
Besides when you deside to take a break from chemistry to focus more of your attention on girls, being able to make jewellery is helpfull. Learning to
work a metal means learning the metals chemistry.
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by Neil | Why lie? As a home chemist you are inevitably going to want to make things that real labs can order. Making a still or copper retort is fun and you
actually will want a pickling bath.
Besides when you deside to take a break from chemistry to focus more of your attention on girls, being able to make jewellery is helpfull. Learning to
work a metal means learning the metals chemistry. |
A retort on any kind, especially a thermal shock-resistant copper retort, will be very useful to me to collect heated gases. But don't you need a very
hot furnace to shape the molten copper metal? Focusing my attention on girls is doomed to fail, as I do not know all the complex dating strategies/ I
am not interested in hobbies a normal male would be interested in, like sports. Also, I like to talk about chemistry and other technicalities. So no.
And a sulfuric acid pickling bath might be useful from isolating noble/semi noble metals from a mixture of metals.
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Neil
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We are getting a bit off topic 
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AJKOER
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With reference to Neil point on making things that real labs could order and to refocus on the thread, employing FeSO4, may I suggest the following
path to pure H2SO4:
1. React FeSO4 with Bleach (NaClO) to produce Cl2 (conform with local laws).
2. Create Chlorine water (use freshly boiled distilled H2O to remove CO2).
3. Add SO2 to the Chlorine water. Reaction:
H2SO3 + Cl2 + H2O --> H2SO4 + HCl
or prepare SO2Cl2, a colorless fuming liquid. Sulfuryl chloride can be synthesized by combing SO2 and Cl2 in sunlight, or in the presence of camphor
or activated charcoal as a catalyst:
SO2 + Cl2 --Catalyst--> SO2Cl2
adding water forms Chlorosulfuric acid and Hydrogen chloride:
SO2Cl2 + H2O --> HSO3Cl + HCl
and adding more water forms Sulfuric acid and Hydrogen chloride:
HSO3Cl + H2O --> H2SO4 + HCl
Actually, this is oxidation via HOCl as:
Cl2 + H2O <==> HOCl + HCl
and if we add a suspension of Silver acetate (dissolve Ag in vinegar and dilute H2O2, evaporate), then only HOCl remains in solution as the Silver
chloride and unreacted Silver acetate are insoluble.
Also, even more potent than HOCl is Cl2O.
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weiming1998
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The problem is, using the SO2+Cl2 method can only produce a weak sulfuric acid/hydrochloric acid solution. When you try to boil it down, it decomposes
(H2SO3 + Cl2 + H2O <--> H2SO4 + HCl) This reaction is at an equilibrium so when the concentration of the acids gets up, it decomposes. That's
what happened last time I tried it.
The silver acetate is a quite an interesting method to get HClO, but my mum would definitely not like to see her precious silver jewelry
dissolved in vinegar/H2O2!
[Edited on 25-1-2012 by weiming1998]
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AJKOER
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weiming1998:
You are right, an oversight on my part:
H2SO3 + Cl2 + H2O <--> H2SO4 + HCl
leads to a dilute acid solution, but the Sulfuryl chloride method, also cited, is capable of producing more concentrated products.
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weiming1998
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How big of a container would I need to contain enough SO2/Cl2 to make even 10mls of sulfuryl chloride?
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AJKOER
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Density SO2Cl2: 1.6674
My calculations suggest that using a 2 liter bottle, you could produce 3.6 ml of SO2Cl2.
However, SO2 boils at -10.0 C, and a solution of 23% salt and water can achieve much colder temperature (-51 C), so one may be able to liquefy it. You
may even consider combing the liquid SO2 with Chlorine hydrate (see discussion below).
Chlorine apparently forms a solid hydrate precipitate (Cl2 7.3H2O). To quote: "If chlorine gas is passed into a dilute solution of CaCl2 at about 0
°C, greenish, feathery crystals appear that can be removed from the solution, dried, and kept indefinitely at room temperature. " LINK: http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/econ/hydrates.htm
I also recall reading in a Sciencemadness thread, that CaCl2/ Chlorine water is the preferred method to actually obtain Chlorine hydrate crystals.
Another older source:"Chlorination of water" by Joseph Race, page 103:
"Although chlorine water appears to be of little value because of its instability there appears to be no reason why chlorine hydrate should not be
successfully employed. The hydrate was first prepared by Faraday [9] by passing chlorine into water surrounded by a freezing mixture. A thick yellow
magma resulted from which the crystals of chlorine hydrate were separated by pressing between filter paper at 0° C. .......
Chlorine hydrate separates into chlorine gas and chlorine water at 9.60 C. in open vessels and at 28.70 C. in closed vessels. "
Another source: "Treatise on general and industrial inorganic chemistry", Volume 1, by Ettore Molinari, page 122:
"The system chlorine-water exhibits the following interesting cases: saturation of water at 0° with gaseous chlorine leads to the separation of
greenish crystals of chlorine hydrate (Cl2 + 8H20), these being stable only up to the temperature 9.6°, above which they are decomposed into gaseous
chlorine and water saturated with chlorine; this hydrate is, however, stable at higher temperatures if the pressure is raised and, on the other hand,
decomposes below 9° if the pressure diminishes. As a rule there are three phases for chlorine hydrate, but at a certain definite point, namely, —
0.26°, four phases are possible, i.e., ice, chlorine hydrate, aqueous chlorine solution, and gaseous chlorine. The equilibrium is, however, easily
altered, and at the least rise of temperature the ice disappears, whilst lowering of the temperature causes transformation of the aqueous chlorine
solution into ice and chlorine hydrate and the consequent suppression of one of the four phases; this equilibrium depends also on the pressure (24.4
cm.), and if this increases, the gaseous chlorine disappears, whilst if it diminishes, another phase (the ice or the hydrate) disappears."
[Edited on 25-1-2012 by AJKOER]
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weiming1998
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It would be difficult to keep the solution cold, considering how hot is is now in Perth
(42 degrees celsius at noon!) But with a refirigerator, some planning and some time, I might be able to do it. Also, would a solution of SO2, put in a
freezer (under -18 degrees celsius) be able to liquefy the SO2?
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | With reference to Neil point on making things that real labs could order and to refocus on the thread, employing FeSO4, may I suggest the following
path to pure H2SO4:
1. React FeSO4 with Bleach (NaClO) to produce Cl2 (conform with local laws).
2. Create Chlorine water (use freshly boiled distilled H2O to remove CO2).
3. Add SO2 to the Chlorine water. Reaction:
H2SO3 + Cl2 + H2O --> H2SO4 + HCl
or prepare SO2Cl2, a colorless fuming liquid. Sulfuryl chloride can be synthesized by combing SO2 and Cl2 in sunlight, or in the presence of camphor
or activated charcoal as a catalyst:
SO2 + Cl2 --Catalyst--> SO2Cl2
adding water forms Chlorosulfuric acid and Hydrogen chloride:
SO2Cl2 + H2O --> HSO3Cl + HCl
and adding more water forms Sulfuric acid and Hydrogen chloride:
HSO3Cl + H2O --> H2SO4 + HCl
Actually, this is oxidation via HOCl as:
Cl2 + H2O <==> HOCl + HCl
and if we add a suspension of Silver acetate (dissolve Ag in vinegar and dilute H2O2, evaporate), then only HOCl remains in solution as the Silver
chloride and unreacted Silver acetate are insoluble.
Also, even more potent than HOCl is Cl2O.
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This just HAS to get a prize, IMHO…
What about :
‘Most far-fetched, most untested, most wasteful, least needed synth EVER!’, worthy possibly of an ‘Ig-noble Prize!’
But I appreciate your attention to detail: ‘conform with local laws’ was priceless; do you normally disregards local laws?
You’re not a chemist, you’re a pseudo-scientific contortionist! But as long as it’s got bleach in it… 
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | With reference to Neil point on making things that real labs could order and to refocus on the thread, employing FeSO4, may I suggest the following
path to pure H2SO4:
1. React FeSO4 with Bleach (NaClO) to produce Cl2 (conform with local laws).
2. Create Chlorine water (use freshly boiled distilled H2O to remove CO2).
3. Add SO2 to the Chlorine water. Reaction:
H2SO3 + Cl2 + H2O --> H2SO4 + HCl
or prepare SO2Cl2, a colorless fuming liquid. Sulfuryl chloride can be synthesized by combing SO2 and Cl2 in sunlight, or in the presence of camphor
or activated charcoal as a catalyst:
SO2 + Cl2 --Catalyst--> SO2Cl2
adding water forms Chlorosulfuric acid and Hydrogen chloride:
SO2Cl2 + H2O --> HSO3Cl + HCl
and adding more water forms Sulfuric acid and Hydrogen chloride:
HSO3Cl + H2O --> H2SO4 + HCl
Actually, this is oxidation via HOCl as:
Cl2 + H2O <==> HOCl + HCl
and if we add a suspension of Silver acetate (dissolve Ag in vinegar and dilute H2O2, evaporate), then only HOCl remains in solution as the Silver
chloride and unreacted Silver acetate are insoluble.
Also, even more potent than HOCl is Cl2O.
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This just HAS to get a prize, IMHO…
What about :
‘Most far-fetched, most untested, most wasteful, least needed synth EVER!’, worthy possibly of an ‘Ig-noble Prize!’
But I appreciate your attention to detail: ‘conform with local laws’ was priceless; do you normally disregards local laws?
You’re not a chemist, you’re a pseudo-scientific contortionist! But as long as it’s got bleach in it…
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The method is far from useless, for me, if I can drive the Cl2/HCl out of the solution without destroying the SO2/H2SO4. But I don't understand the
reason for making Cl2 from FeSO4. Why not from NaHSO4, which is cheaper?
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | With reference to Neil point on making things that real labs could order and to refocus on the thread, employing FeSO4, may I suggest the following
path to pure H2SO4:
1. React FeSO4 with Bleach (NaClO) to produce Cl2 (conform with local laws).
2. Create Chlorine water (use freshly boiled distilled H2O to remove CO2).
3. Add SO2 to the Chlorine water. Reaction:
H2SO3 + Cl2 + H2O --> H2SO4 + HCl
or prepare SO2Cl2, a colorless fuming liquid. Sulfuryl chloride can be synthesized by combing SO2 and Cl2 in sunlight, or in the presence of camphor
or activated charcoal as a catalyst:
SO2 + Cl2 --Catalyst--> SO2Cl2
adding water forms Chlorosulfuric acid and Hydrogen chloride:
SO2Cl2 + H2O --> HSO3Cl + HCl
and adding more water forms Sulfuric acid and Hydrogen chloride:
HSO3Cl + H2O --> H2SO4 + HCl
Actually, this is oxidation via HOCl as:
Cl2 + H2O <==> HOCl + HCl
and if we add a suspension of Silver acetate (dissolve Ag in vinegar and dilute H2O2, evaporate), then only HOCl remains in solution as the Silver
chloride and unreacted Silver acetate are insoluble.
Also, even more potent than HOCl is Cl2O.
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This is not going to make significant quantities of sulphuric acid, pure or otherwise.
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AJKOER
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Actually, I think you guys have done it this time.
Science Squirrel and Weiming1998, please do yourself a big favor and take anything blogfast25 says lightly.
In fact, SO2Cl2 is not my favorite either, but in a prior hypochlorite method to H2SO4, it received a favorable comment by Woelen as having the
potential to produce something other than dilute H2SO4. Excuse me for including it.
Please look it up yourselves and just ignore blogfast25 (no adjectives necessary).
Now, if someone has an issue with the synthesis of chlorosulfuric and sulfuric acid, please address your comments to my source: "Concise Encyclopedia
Chemistry" by Walter de Gruyter, 1994, page 1058.
If you all don't have enough mad on your faces, I know of a good source for Black Sea mud (really, it is a big seller here!)
[Edited on 25-1-2012 by AJKOER]
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White Yeti
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| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | Actually, I think you guys have done it this time.
Science Squirrel and Weiming1998, please do yourself a big favor and take anything blogfast25 says lightly.
In fact, SO2Cl2 is not my favorite either, but in a prior hypochlorite method to H2SO4, it received a favorable comment by Woelen as having the
potential to produce something other than dilute H2SO4. Excuse me for including it.
Please look it up yourselves and just ignore blogfast25 (no adjectives necessary). |
Ahem....
What blogfast25 is saying is very reasonable and there is no reason to brush him aside.
It's true that in all your posts hypochlorite seems to be the fix for everything. Give it up, what do you need sulfuric acid for anyway?
If you really want to make sulfuric acid, set up a big heated pressure vessel loaded with V2O5 garden sulfur, and some air.
Fire it up and see what happens, your yields will be much better than through any other process (except maybe the lead chamber process).
There's no need to re-invent the wheel. For most purposes, you can swap sulfuric acid for another acid.
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
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rstar
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How about electrolysis of FeSO4 solution ? 
A similar NurdRage video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dUSF9Gl0xE"> here </a>
"A tidy laboratory means a lazy chemist "
- Jöns Jacob Berzelius
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White Yeti
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| Quote: Originally posted by rstar | How about electrolysis of FeSO4 solution ?
A similar NurdRage video <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dUSF9Gl0xE"> here </a> |
Won't work, iron re-dissolves in sulphuric acid.
"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
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Neil
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Electrolysis is used to regenerate sulfuric acid in titanium refining from the otherwise wasted Iron sulfate.
They use membranes, pH control and fancy anode cathode materials to plate iron out of the solutions.
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Neil
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| Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER | Actually, I think you guys have done it this time.
Science Squirrel and Weiming1998, please do yourself a big favor and take anything blogfast25 says lightly.
In fact, SO2Cl2 is not my favorite either, but in a prior hypochlorite method to H2SO4, it received a favorable comment by Woelen as having the
potential to produce something other than dilute H2SO4. Excuse me for including it.
Please look it up yourselves and just ignore blogfast25 (no adjectives necessary).
Now, if someone has an issue with the synthesis of chlorosulfuric and sulfuric acid, please address your comments to my source: "Concise Encyclopedia
Chemistry" by Walter de Gruyter, 1994, page 1058.
If you all don't have enough mad on your faces, I know of a good source for Black Sea mud (really, it is a big seller here!)
[Edited on 25-1-2012 by AJKOER] |
What Blogfast is errr 'alluding' to is that your posts are a bit more mental masturbation then useful chemistry. They are interesting, or sometimes
loony, but not useful. While that may have been a bit blunt of him, his point about the applicability of the synthesis is valid.
The cost of getting NaClO from bleach makes it fiscally impractical for use in any synthesis, even straightforward ones like haloform reactions.
While the interactions of bleach are interesting they are, at the costs and grades available OTC, useless as anything other then a novelty.
I do find the idea of making sulphuric from fools gold interesting, but I find a perverse joy in making things out of illogical baser ingredients.
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blogfast25
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AJKOER:
Really you should start with some simple experiments and a basic text book. Get some joyful mileage out of these. Instead you concoct the most bizarre
attempts at ‘synthesis’ (this one not being the first by a long shot and nor will it be the last in all sad likelihood), thrown together from
quoted sources you clearly either not understand or pull out of context.
As regards mudslinging, for the most part I ignore your scribbles because rebutting them could cost hours of my time I’d never get back…
But you are seriously getting on people’s nerves here, it really isn’t just me alone.
Now seriously, go and BUY some concentrated H2SO4 drain unblocker, some base chemicals and do some basic stuff. Well reported even the simplest of
things are a joy to read. Not so your pseudo-chemical houses of cards in the sky…
Thanks to you I may never be able to look at a bottle of bleach in the same way…
[Edited on 25-1-2012 by blogfast25]
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neptunium
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so i guess that closes the topic??? moderator ?
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AJKOER
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A little off topic, but my favorite oxidizers for the home chemists is H2O2 + Ferrous salt, or Sodium percarbonate (in the presence of a catalyst like
Na2CO3, Zn dust,...), which appears to enter the realm of Fenton chemistry with the production of the free hydroxyl radical.
Next is Cl2O many times more reactive than HOCl (example, HOCl oxidizes Sulfur safely, while Cl2O and dry S is reportedly explosive). The home chemist
can make it by dehydrating concentrated HOCl (from repeated distillations of half a solution of the starting HOCl) with Ca(NO3)2. Also with more
effort, by passing Cl2 over heated moist NaHCO3 and collecting the dried Cl2O gas in CCl4 (cooled for safety and avoid strong light), or better, not
stored but used immediately given its explosive nature with exposure to heat, organic substances, light and shock.
Next is HOCl due to it easy preparation from inexpensive household ingredients.
Next is Cl2, then H2O2, Ferrates and finally HIO3.
Note, the list is short as many substances are not normally available at home or, subject to security questions, before being able to purchase.
[Edited on 25-1-2012 by AJKOER]
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