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Author: Subject: cheddite
Zyklon-A
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 19:15


Quote: Originally posted by Turner  
I hate those kind of websites, books, manuals like you linked there.


Yes, I hate them to, but I have to admit, as far as I remember that is what got me interested in chemistry, I saw something there, tried it, and miracle of miracles, it worked, almost nothing else there works though.




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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 22:46


Quote: Originally posted by Zyklonb  
Here, I found something that says you can make a 'cheddite' with KNO3, I don't trust this site at all, but I tried it anyway, it says ''When wet it is harmless... but when it dries it is
highly explosive and shock sensitive. ****store in oil''.
''Well this is stupid'', I thought, petroleum jelly never will dry, anyway, it didn't work at all, I followed the instructions exactly, and just for fun I set it out to 'dry', now 2 months later it looks the same, not going to work at all, ever.
I suggest that you don't try anything from this site, about half of the things they say are false, and the other half can get you killed.





[Edited on 30-12-2013 by Zyklonb]


Wow wee, this must be writ by comedians. Listen to this one tells you to tape nails to a can of vaseline and then stick a fuse in and it will blow up? What nonsense.

Currently I have some NH4ClO4 and will obtain some vaseline soon in order to try the cheddite as proposed with it. I cannot recall which thread it was exactly, perhaps this one.
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Zyklon-A
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[*] posted on 31-12-2013 at 23:50


It seems like they think a 1 to1 raito will work all the time, or some times, nothing at all."Just mix I2 with NH3 (aq), and you'll get some black stuff, just filter it off and then leave it to dry in you're room (or some other very safe place like your closit or behind the toilite").




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markx
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 04:19


Quite the energetics these chloratites....made a small test on the simplest formulation with 9 kclo3/1 kerosene (30g):



20131014_185010.jpg - 94kB 20131014_185712.jpg - 120kB 20131014_190356.jpg - 78kB 20131014_190422.jpg - 68kB

The yellowish coloration is due to iron oxides from the milling media, but nonetheless it left a nice mark on the witness body




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Hennig Brand
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 07:11


If you used a ball mill, you would have easily been able to get the chlorate down to smaller particle size than I did, which should improved sensitivity and propagation. What I produced with the homemade sieve was about 100 mesh, but a ball mill could do much better. What did you use for an initiator?

Is the piece of material (witness plate) in the second picture supposed to be the same as the piece of material in the third and fourth? Not really sure what the charge is supposed to have done to the target exactly. What is the target?

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by Hennig Brand]




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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 07:42


It looks like a C-channel steel, or a rectangular extrusion. With a difference in lighting conditions, they seem to be the same, same hole placement and black splatter on the left.

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by roXefeller]
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 08:43


Test body is rectangular steel tube with 1,6mm wall thickness. There was no pinpoint objective on what the charge should have done to the test body in that experiment...I guess what you see in the last pictures is about exactly that what could have been expected :D (And yes, the pictures are of the same test piece)
ETN/SADS (600/60mg) compund cap was used for stirring things up. Like this one:



20131124_203059.jpg - 104kB 20131124_203731.jpg - 115kB

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by markx]




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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 08:53


Quote: Originally posted by markx  
Test body is rectangular steel tube with 1,6mm wall thickness. There was no pinpoint objective on what the charge should have done to the test body in that experiment...I guess what you see in the last pictures is about exactly that what could have been expected :D (And yes, the pictures are of the same test piece)
ETN/SADS (600/60mg) compund cap was used for stirring things up. Like this one:





[Edited on 1-1-2014 by markx]



What about the loading density of each of each explosive tested? this is important so you can compare between the 3 explosives. having the same mass (0.6 g) is not enough for comparison if you don't know the loading density. Have you tried to check up the loading density?

Dany.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 09:24


Yes, I'm well aware of the importance of loading density and no, I have not tried to measure or match it so far. But when referring to the series in my last post, I owe an explanation: the three compounds were used not to compare their effect, but to test the primary's ability to initiate them ;) Therefore I did not spend any effort on exacty matching their density, they were just lightly compacted to fit the casing snugly and uniformly.



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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 09:41


Quote: Originally posted by markx  
I did not spend any effort on exacty matching their density, they were just lightly compacted to fit the casing snugly and uniformly.


As you know the initiating ability of a substance depend also on the density of the main charge. with increasing density charge the initiation become harder (because of the lack of enough voids and inhomogeneities for hot spot formation). Some explosive become dead pressed when confined to high density (which is not a problem in your case). So density should be checked as far as possible so as to get good results with logical conclusions

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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 10:04


Quote: Originally posted by markx  
Therefore I did not spend any effort on exacty matching their density


By matching do you mean identical densities? Is having identical densities necessary? I suppose that propagating waves would have less reflection and more transmission at the boundary if there wasn't a density discontinuity, but this seems like a minor effect.
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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 10:40


All true...the tighter it sits, the harder it is to wake up (thanks for pointing that out), but I worked towards a specific case this time : these 3 compounds, "hand compressed" with same mass of primary/secondary through the series. The question: go or no go?

Got my answer :) :

20131124_204506.jpg - 98kB

No further conclusions were drawn from the results this time.

Of course having identical densities is not neccesary, but it may make comparison easier (depending of course on what the initial goal of the experiment is)

[Edited on 1-1-2014 by markx]




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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 12:12


The following table, showing more modern French Cheddite formulations, is from "Military Explosives TM 9-1300-214" (1984). Average density for these charges was stated as being 1.3 g/mL. Notice that there is more DNT and less chlorate used than in the older formulations previously posted. Notice also that no castor oil is used.

French Cheddites (Modern).jpg - 40kB




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[*] posted on 1-1-2014 at 12:27


The following is a copy/paste from an archived copy of some of the rec.pyrotechnics newsgroup posts. These guys know a lot about the subject matter, and I thought it would be good to post this very concise and informative description of how these types of explosives behave.

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: arno@utu.fi (Arno Hahma)
Subject: Re: Na/KClO3 w/ Vaseline??
Organization: University of Turku
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:16:03 GMT

In article <3tavr6$rh1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>,
Gerald L. Hurst <glhurst@onr.com> wrote:

>not both. My question relates to whether the
>material truly supports a classic detonation head
>or if, instead, it reacts only at the deflagrating
>surface like a propellant, only much faster than

Yes and no. The (per)chlorate/vaseline mixture detonates at about 3000 m/s
at a density of 1.3 g/ccm and about 4000 m/s at a density of 1.5. [J.
Wuorinen, "Räjähdysaineoppi", Otava (1928), Helsinki, Finland, pp.
162-165, in Finnish; T. Urbanski, "Chemistry and Technology of
Explosives", Pergamon Press (1986 reprint), Exeter, Great Britain,
Vol. 3, pp. 277-279].

If you calculate the theoretical detonation velocity assuming 100 %
reactivity, you'll get something like 5000..6000 m/s. With the mere
3000 m/s there is still a detonation, but only about 30 % of the
material is reacting based on calculations. Thus, the detonation is
highly unideal (i.e. not a classic one) and sensitive to the particle
size of the chlorate (more surface, more contact to the fuel, more fuel
reacting, higher detonation velocity) and to the way the material is
packed and initiated. Also, the nature of the fuel is going to make a
big change - use something like nitrobenzene or dinitrobenzene and
you'll get a considerably higher velocity because shocking the fuel is
not eating so much energy as shocking vaseline.

Potassium chlorate is pretty "neutral" towards shock, it releases some
energy when decomposed, but not enough to sustain detonation. As a
result, you only need to add a little energy to get the detonation
going. But, you need a continous phase of some kind to transmit the
shockwave through the mass without too much attenuation. This
is one of the reasons, why powdered mixtures (like perchlorate/Al or
chlorate/sugar) are so hard to detonate.

KClO4/Al at least does not detonate at all (not even deflagrates
reliably, unless the Al is extremely fine powder), which doesn't mean
it wouldn't be hazardous or wouldn't explode. I have an article
in print about this in Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics and I'm
also going to present information about it in the next ADPA conference
in September.

>Many people might say "who cares," but it is of
>very great interest to me and probably others
>in this forum.

Yep! The same applies to ANFO as well. ANFO also detonates
very unideally with only about 50 % of the material contributing
to the shock energy unless extremely well confined. Again, the amount
of material reacting at the reaction zone (as far as classical
detonation is concerned) is highly dependent on variables like charge
diameter, confinement, particle size, degree of mixing, fuel
composition etc. Good references are C. Mader, "Numerical Modeling of
Detonations", UCLA Press, Berkeley and LA (1984), p. 99 and A. C. van
der Steen et al., "Detonation Velocities of the Non-Ideal Explosive
Ammonium Nitrate" in Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics 15 pp. 58-61
(1990).




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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 23:42


So, packing up 90 parts of powdered chlorate and 10 parts of fuel oil with a good detonator will do the job?
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[*] posted on 2-1-2014 at 23:54


Quote: Originally posted by testimento  
So, packing up 90 parts of powdered chlorate and 10 parts of fuel oil with a good detonator will do the job?


That is ratio by mass, as always (just to avoid confusion). And yes, it packs quite a punch....is loud as hell too.




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[*] posted on 3-1-2014 at 01:43


Excellent. Gotta wake up my 3kW electrolysis cell. :D

Could this composition be initiated with ball mill powdered ammonium perchlorate aluminium mixture, maybe 10-50g charge?
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[*] posted on 3-1-2014 at 02:44


I do not know if flash will wake it up....I would not count on it though. I'd rather try a smaller sharper slap to get it going (nitric esters, nitramines etc.). Besides if only your booster is already going to weigh 50g, man, better not to work with such quantities. Keep it safe, friend!



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[*] posted on 4-1-2014 at 04:22


Quote: Originally posted by markx  
Quote: Originally posted by testimento  
So, packing up 90 parts of powdered chlorate and 10 parts of fuel oil with a good detonator will do the job?


That is ratio by mass, as always (just to avoid confusion). And yes, it packs quite a punch....is loud as hell too.


Potassium chlorate and fuels, liquid and/or solid, can be made to detonate, but they are not Cheddites AFAIK. I have seen a couple of different definitions, that differ slightly, but I think a Cheddite always has nitroaromatic(s) in it.




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[*] posted on 4-1-2014 at 06:12


Urbanski also states mixtures without nitroaromatics as members of the cheddite family:

cheddites.jpg - 40kB

So I guess the definitions are a bit vague...




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[*] posted on 4-1-2014 at 07:13


The common link in that table seems to be the moderant (castor oil or petroleum wax). Ok, potassium or sodium chlorate with wax or Vaseline are often classified as Cheddites, but I don't think Chlorate with liquid hydrocarbons alone are (I could be wrong). Anyway, interesting that it works especially since it is a very simple explosive with easily obtained/made components.



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[*] posted on 6-1-2014 at 08:21


How well do cheddites work with no kerosene (only petroleum jelly), are they more difficult to detonate. I don't have any kerosene an the moment.



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[*] posted on 6-1-2014 at 09:07


Do you have any idea what would be the RE Factor and detonation velocity of ball milled Na/KClO3+FO 90:10 mixture initiated with good booster like ETN?

And btw, why everyone outright prefer potassium chlorate instead of sodium? The latter has more oxygen in weight(6%), it comes straight out of chlorate cell and it's only drawback is that it absorbs water - but hey, everyone still uses AN with FO and everyone's fine with that? I suppose that NaClO3 can be dried ground dry when heated up to 150-200C.

[Edited on 6-1-2014 by testimento]
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[*] posted on 6-1-2014 at 10:38


Thank you for posting your experiences and blast reports.

I'm very interested in this kind of mixtures because my chlorate cell provides me with an endless supply of raw material.

The old commercial mixtures with nitroaromatics in them aren't much of value for the hobbyist, especially with nitrates and acids becoming more regulated for us in the EU.

I'd prefer to produce something like ETN over wasting precious nitric ect. for DNT, only to get stuff that is barely faster than 3000m/s and has obviously trouble to fully detonate without confinement.



Quote:

And btw, why everyone outright prefer potassium chlorate instead of sodium? The latter has more oxygen in weight(6%)


I wonder if one can actually use this oxygen with oil. Most Chlorate mixtures do not seem to detonate very well with more than 9% oil. Therfore I wonder if the common ratios have necessarely something to do with OB?

[Edited on 6-1-2014 by Gargamel]
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[*] posted on 6-1-2014 at 16:53


TNT can be very nitric acid efficient depending on the operator and reaction circumstances.

RDX is by far the worst and most frustrating explosive if you value the costly nitric acid, 50ml gave me 6 grams of RDX and that isn't far off from theoretical yield.
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