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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 9-2-2013 at 13:52


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
Still waiting for news of the epidemic.


Only Alex Jones knows the full story but he's hanging on to it for a bit, at least until he can shake of these G-men...




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Morgan
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[*] posted on 10-2-2013 at 07:34


For the rest of your life ...
Professional Perspectives on Water Fluoridation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88pfVo3bZLY#t=3m7s
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[*] posted on 10-2-2013 at 08:13


Well, one of the first things they get wrong is that they forget that the dose per person is broadly in proportion to their metabolic rate.
So, while they say "no drug is given to all people in the same dose (which is pretty nearly false- look at acetaminophen or some of the other OTC medicines), they overlook the fact that bigger people are generally given bigger doses (which makes sense) but bigger people drink more water so, as is sensible, bigger people get bigger doses. (03:20)
There's also a failure to account for a therapeutic index.

If we have "a diabetic, who is drinking a ton of water", wouldn't it be better to focus on treating their diabetes, rather than banging on about fluoride (which, since it's rather soluble, is likely to be pissed straight out again anyway). (03:40)

The first time someone actually made a valid point was about 04:25 where Earl Baldwin mentions the issue of consent.
He conveniently forgets that the decision to fluoridate water was a legal one made by parliament.
Possibly the reason why he forgets that is because he is a life peer. He has a position in the law making process (in the House of Lords)- though not for any personal merit, and yet he doesn't understand that we voted for this.

I'm still waiting for the epidemic. If it's in the video could someone please say where because I'm not prepared to listen to a bunch of people making obvious mistakes.


[Edited on 10-2-13 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 10-2-2013 at 10:03


"So, while they say "no drug is given to all people in the same dose (which is pretty nearly false- look at acetaminophen or some of the other OTC medicines), they overlook the fact that bigger people are generally given bigger doses (which makes sense) but bigger people drink more water so, as is sensible, bigger people get bigger doses. (03:20)"

In the case of OTC drugs there's usually a smaller dose for children, and also a bevy of caveats on the warning label for those sensitive to the specific product. Just the other day I saw a commercial with lawyers wanting to help you collect if your baby was born with heart defects or other illnesses from taking anti-depressants. It's endless how many drugs are approved and taken off the market for a specific use. And look at the shoddy statistical evidence they get to submit when getting their drugs approved. Sure people should know better to avoid drugs when pregnant but their doctor gave it to them, so there's that. At the time I was born in England, my mother told me a neighbor had a thalidomide baby.
Sure fluoride might not be a deadly drug for people consuming small amounts, but with all that is known, why not lean on the side of better safe than sorry. There are so many things to take into account.
(For Review Page 7) And as such people like diabetics, athletes, people with kidney problems or metabolic issues, outdoor workers, or young children will be taking in more fluoride proportionate to their body weight. If you gravitate towards foods high in fluoride that's another source.
"In tropical climates during prolonged exercise, the
excretion of fluoride in sweat is about a tenth of a
milligram. This values is quite small compared to 2
mg uptake from diet and a milligram of fluoride
excreted by urine."
http://student.ahc.umn.edu/dental/2012/5302/2009-L6-3Apr.pdf
"In young animals (and humans) a relatively high portion of fluoride is deposited in the skeleton. In this study, fluoride retention in young puppies is about 90%, and reduced to 60% at 2 years old. In adults, fluoride retention is on
average 50%."
http://student.ahc.umn.edu/dental/2012/5302/2009-L6-3Apr.pdf

There're so many variables as to how much fluoride you get from food and water, along with how it might interact with other parts of the body besides teeth, or if it is even known what or how other pollutants in water along with hydrofluorosilicic acid might interact synergistically or tax the body filtering them out on a daily basis, for the rest of your life. In that one article they talk about HF being filtered by the kidney and part of it gets reabsorbed. And if true that must be somewhat taxing to the kidney having such an active molecule to deal with, added on to all the other waste products it has to deal with.

"How does pH affect the renal handlingof fluoride?"
When F is reabsorbed from renal tubules, the amount of F reabsorption can vary from 20-95% depending on pH of the
tubular fluid. This character can also be explained by the diffusion of undissociated HF across the tubular
epithelium."
"The higher acidity of stomach content increases the absorption of fluoride. The reason is because HF is the dominate form at low pH."
"Fluoride is absorbed as HF, which is an uncharged molecule and can readily pass through biological membranes. Research has shown that 40% of oral dose of fluoride is absorbed from the stomach."
http://student.ahc.umn.edu/dental/2012/5302/2009-L6-3Apr.pdf
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[*] posted on 10-2-2013 at 12:06


This sort of thing "Just the other day I saw a commercial with lawyers wanting to help you collect if your baby was born with heart defects or other illnesses from taking anti-depressants." may well tell you more about lawyers than about anything else.
The big deal about thalidomide was that, up till then , there was a belief that the placenta didn't permit "foreign" materials through so they didn't test for foetal toxicity.
"Sure fluoride might not be a deadly drug for people consuming small amounts, but with all that is known, why not lean on the side of better safe than sorry."
Sure, until we actually know of any harm caused we should err on the side of caution and continue to protect people's teeth (which we know works).

"There're so many variables as to how much fluoride you get from food and water, along with how it might interact with other parts of the body besides teeth, or if it is even known what or how other pollutants in water along with hydrofluorosilicic acid might interact synergistically or tax the body filtering them out on a daily basis, for the rest of your life"

Actually, we do know the effect.
If there was a significant effect then, given the size of the exposed population, there would be an epidemic of whatever form of harm was caused.

So, what time do I skip to in that video to find the bit about the epidemic?

[Edited on 10-2-13 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 10-2-2013 at 13:24


There's no "epidemic" of people eating tuna with mercury in it. But I'd rather not have any mercury in my fish. It's still in the stores so it must be safe. No epidemic here, no real harm if it isn't epidemic.
"The report recommends that all children avoid eating albacore tuna. In addition, it advises children under 55 pounds to limit “light” tuna to one meal once a month, and twice a month for children over that weight."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=canned-tuna...

And with the multitude of contaminants tested for in water, maybe it would be better to leave fluoride out. Do you think every combination has been tested? And with fracking, there will be more added to the list.

"When two different types of toxicants are simultaneously going inside a human body they may function independently or can act as synergistic or antagonistic to one another."
"Although there have been reports in literature of individual toxicity of arsenic and fluoride however, there is very little known about the effects following the combined exposure to these toxicants."
Arsenic and fluoride: two major ground water pollutants.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20929051
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[*] posted on 10-2-2013 at 13:28


Morgan:

"There're so many variables as to how much fluoride you get from food and water, along with how it might interact with other parts of the body besides teeth, or if it is even known what or how other pollutants in water along with hydrofluorosilicic acid might interact synergistically or tax the body filtering them out on a daily basis, for the rest of your life"

This is a classic canard of course and I wish those who invoke it would apply it consistently because then they would see the absurdity of their argument.

‘There’s so many variables mate, so we really can’t trust it’ would be a more honest and equally fallacious way of putting it.

And ‘synergistically’ is a word invoked by those who want to point to more potential and hidden dangers w/o actually having evidence they exist. But hey, there’s always that possibility… A synergism implies that the total effect is larger than the sum of the individual effects. For example: z = ax + by + cxy + d with z a measuring response, x and y independent variables and z = ax + by + cxy + d, a mathematical model fitted to the data. To claim synergism, the claimant would first have to establish such a model empirically, then explain the causality that drives the physical/chemical interaction between x and y. Trust me: your chums aren’t even remotely up to it but hey: it sounds good!




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[*] posted on 10-2-2013 at 13:34


FFS!
OK, damned if they do and damned if they don't.
If they suggest regulating something like mercury exposure before there's an epidemic because of the so called precautionary principle, then that's evidence that fluoride is toxic?

"Do you think every combination has been tested?"
pretty much yes- though by accident- in the past.
Once again show me those epidemics.

"Although there have been reports in literature of individual toxicity of arsenic and fluoride however, there is very little known about the effects following the combined exposure to these toxicants.""
Two red herrings for the price of one.
Nobody is suggesting adding arsenic to water. Arsenic isn't good for your teeth (or any other bits)
Everyone knows that large doses of fluoride are toxic. So are large doses of water so, to be consistent, you should ban water from the water supply.

Incidentally, selenium and arsenic are both toxic- but together they are less toxic than individually.

If, as you say, adding fluoride to water causes harm then there should be a clear increase in the incidence of that harm which coincides with adding fluoride.
Show me that epidemic.
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[*] posted on 10-2-2013 at 20:57


Common sense ...
"I would advise against fluoridation.. Side-effects cannot be excluded .. In Sweden, the emphasis nowadays is to keep the environment as clean as possible with regard to pharmacologically active and, thus, potentially toxic substances."
- Dr. Arvid Carlsson, co-winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine (2000)

"State authorities said yesterday that the accidental spill of 1,000 gallons of fluoride into the city’s drinking water supply probably would have gone undetected if the kidney patients had not become ill."
"The spill occurred Nov. 11 when a worker at the city’s water filtration plant inadvertently left a central valve open for 11 hours, allowing 10 times the normal amount of fluoride to escape into the water supply."
http://www.fluoridealert.org/studies/annapolis/

"Dental fluorosis is nearly twice as prevalent in fluoridated
communities vs. unfluoridated communities."

"My concern about fluoridation is this is just one more nail in the coffin," says Engelking. "And there are a lot of other people lining up to put nails in. It will be a miracle if we go another 50 years and still have a salmon run in Oregon."
"Fluoride's threat to salmon is taken so seriously in Canada that British Columbia set a special soft-water standard of 0.2 parts per million. Les Swain, water quality manager of the B.C. Ministry of Environment, says some of the most compelling evidence for that decision came from Oregon."
"The problem is that 99 percent of the fluoride goes right down the drain and into our rivers, as sewage-treatment plants don't remove the chemical. Studies have shown that sewage plants in fluoridated communities can emit fluoride at about 1.2 parts per million--six times the level allowed in British Columbia."
"It makes you wonder," says Williams. "Would we get a better bang for the buck if kids got free toothpaste, with better education to brush every day?"
http://www.nofluoride.com/Salmon.cfm

The big boys got it wrong. Epidemic stupidity?
"EPA based its standards on the assumption that
adults consume 2 liters of water-based beverages per
day. People who are exposed to higher concentrations
include those who live where there are high concentrations
of fluoride in drinking water; those who drink
unusually large volumes of water, such as athletes
or people with certain medical conditions; and those
who are exposed to other important sources of fluoride
such as from occupational exposures. On a per-bodyweight
basis, infants and young children have approximately
three to four times greater exposure than do
adults. Dental-care products are also a special consideration
for children, because many tend to use more
toothpaste than is advised and may swallow some."
"In light of the collective evidence on adverse
health effects and total exposure to fluoride, the
committee concludes that EPA’s drinking water
standard of 4 mg/L is not adequately protective
of health. Lowering it will prevent children from
developing severe enamel fluorosis and will reduce
the lifetime accumulation of fluoride into bone that
the majority of the committee concludes is likely
to put individuals at increased risk of bone fracture
and possibly skeletal fluorosis, which are particular
concerns for those of the public who are prone to
accumulating fluoride in their bones."
"Severe enamel fluorosis occurs in approximately 10%,
on average, of children in U.S. communities with water
fluoride concentrations at or near 4 mg/L. The condition
develops as teeth are forming."
http://dels.nas.edu/resources/static-assets/materials-based-...
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[*] posted on 11-2-2013 at 00:29


damn morgan you're awesome
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[*] posted on 11-2-2013 at 12:11


Indeed, his ability to pretend that we are fish (""Fluoride's threat to salmon is taken so seriously in Canada that British Columbia...") or that we are generally more than 10 times more sensitive to fluoride than one of the most sensitive groups ("State authorities said yesterday that the accidental spill of 1,000 gallons of fluoride into the city’s drinking water supply probably would have gone undetected if the kidney patients had not become ill."
"The spill occurred Nov. 11 when a worker at the city’s water filtration plant inadvertently left a central valve open for 11 hours, allowing 10 times the normal amount of fluoride to escape into the water supply.")



is awesome.
Awesomely bad science
So is this "People who are exposed to higher concentrations
include those who live where there are high concentrations
of fluoride in drinking water; "
Yeah- we know that lots of fluoride is toxic. So is lots of water.
But that has nothing to do with the fluoridation debate because they don't add " high concentrations of fluoride in drinking water; "

Similarly,
" Dental-care products are also a special consideration
for children, because many tend to use more
toothpaste than is advised and may swallow some."
Indeed, but that's overlooking the fact that toothpastes typically have 1000 or 1500 ppm of fluoride but fluoridated water has about 1.

Swallowing fluoride at a thousand times higher concentrations than are present in water might be a concern for small children. So what?

" Studies have shown that sewage plants in fluoridated communities can emit fluoride at about 1.2 parts per million--six times the level allowed in British Columbia."
And about 10 fold less than you would get if there was natural fluorite rock present.
Does British Columbia propose to ban rocks?

"Severe enamel fluorosis occurs in approximately 10%,
on average, of children in U.S. communities with water
fluoride concentrations at or near 4 mg/L. The condition
develops as teeth are forming."
Well, it's just as well that nobody proposes adding that much fluoride to drinking water isn't it?


Show me the epidemic of harm caused by fluoridated water we already know about fluorosis etc due to naturally occurring very high levels- but they are not relevant to the discussion of artificial fluoridation because they occur at rather higher concentrations.

Show me the epidemic.

[Edited on 11-2-13 by unionised]
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[*] posted on 11-2-2013 at 14:09


The abolitionists in this whole debate would convince me more if:

1. Perhaps they concentrated more on the issue of personal choice. Countries cold vote on that and be done with it.

2. They didn’t drag so many secondary arguments into their reasoning. It’s a bit like listening to proponents of the JFK conspiracy theory, really. See also the comment section on one of the Utoob vids presented above.




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[*] posted on 12-2-2013 at 03:51


According to my research and observation ingesting fluorine in any way is bad. No matter if it is a simple salt or in an organic compound like Prozac, it causes brain damage as well as other long term health concerns. I have never drank or brushed my teeth with sodium fluoride and have no cavities. Everyone else i know are walking like zombies and want my hair for cancer wigs.
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[*] posted on 12-2-2013 at 06:17


Quote: Originally posted by bmays  
According to my research and observation ingesting fluorine in any way is bad. No matter if it is a simple salt or in an organic compound like Prozac, it causes brain damage as well as other long term health concerns. I have never drank or brushed my teeth with sodium fluoride and have no cavities. Everyone else i know are walking like zombies and want my hair for cancer wigs.


Possibly the single most fallacious argument I've seen in this topic. First, the sweeping generalization: "Fluoride is bad no matter how you ingest it." Sure, but at what concentration? How many compounds did you study to arrive at this conclusion?

Second, the immortality argument, which always goes thusly: "I'm not dead, therefore I must not be able to die." Just because it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean it won't. Also, I don't believe for a second that you have conclusive evidence that not using fluoride has turned your teeth all shiny and white.




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[*] posted on 14-2-2013 at 21:02


How I became interested in Fluoride
"But mainly Dr. Nieper´s letter found my and my wife´s interest because our daughter had just shown us a form which we parents were asked to sign, saying that our child would be given fluoride tablets in the kindergarten."
http://www.fluoride-history.de/mystory.htm

"The constant dosage of fluorine in water in these extremely attenuated concentrations may express itself in mild pathologic lesions of other tissues which, through their inherent vital functions, may be coincidentally repaired. No such function resides within the enamel, as is well understood by dental science. The disturbing influence of fluorine on the process of enamel calcification is never offset; hence, this lesion of the enamel remains as the only index of the toxicity of that element for the individual."
http://www.fluoride-history.de/bartlett.htm

An interesting history of fluorine as they piece it together
Fluoride Research in the 19th and early 20th century
1820
"Wenzel Krimer speculated that dilute fluoric acid might dissolve in the digestive tract any accidentally swallowed pieces of glass (1). To test the acid´s toxic properties suggested by Thénard´s observations, he ingested a few drops of dilute solutions of hydrofluoric acid and experienced diverse troubles (itching sensations, warmth, vomiting, obstipation). He concluded his experiments, but recommended that a dilution of 1:18 could safely be tried in cases of emergency."
http://www.fluoride-history.de/fteeth1.htm
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[*] posted on 14-2-2013 at 21:06


Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
How I became interested in Fluoride
"But mainly Dr. Nieper´s letter found my and my wife´s interest because our daughter had just shown us a form which we parents were asked to sign, saying that our child would be given fluoride tablets in the kindergarten."
http://www.fluoride-history.de/mystory.htm

"The constant dosage of fluorine in water in these extremely attenuated concentrations may express itself in mild pathologic lesions of other tissues which, through their inherent vital functions, may be coincidentally repaired. No such function resides within the enamel, as is well understood by dental science. The disturbing influence of fluorine on the process of enamel calcification is never offset; hence, this lesion of the enamel remains as the only index of the toxicity of that element for the individual."
http://www.fluoride-history.de/bartlett.htm

An interesting history of fluorine as they piece it together
Fluoride Research in the 19th and early 20th century
1820
"Wenzel Krimer speculated that dilute fluoric acid might dissolve in the digestive tract any accidentally swallowed pieces of glass (1). To test the acid´s toxic properties suggested by Thénard´s observations, he ingested a few drops of dilute solutions of hydrofluoric acid and experienced diverse troubles (itching sensations, warmth, vomiting, obstipation). He concluded his experiments, but recommended that a dilution of 1:18 could safely be tried in cases of emergency."
http://www.fluoride-history.de/fteeth1.htm


1. ...Why? Fluoride deficiency? Bad teeth?
2. Didn't it say it repairs itself? Not a problem, then, right?
3. ...HF. Not the best example for fluoride toxicity, given its potency.




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[*] posted on 15-2-2013 at 07:03


I was given fluoride tablets from when I was a toddler to about puberty (by my parents, both of which suffered from bad teeth). To this day I don't have a single cavity or filling. Does this actually prove anything? Well no, you can't prove anything with a single datapoint. But it does show what kind of hysteria has been launched against fluoridation: these tablets were seriously popular back then...



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[*] posted on 15-2-2013 at 07:40


"Secretary of Health and Human Services, Kathleen Sebelius gave notice in the January 13, 2011 Federal Register (pages 2383-86) that 41% of all people in the U.S. who were 12 to 15 years old between 1999 and 2004 have dental fluorosis from ingesting too much fluoride, primarily from drinking fluoridated water and swallowing fluoridated toothpaste, both occuring before they were 9 years old."

"Dental fluorosis results in lacy white marking on teeth in milder cases and brown stains and pitted, crumbly teeth in moderate to severe cases. Secretary Sebelius states that 3.6% (or 1 in 27) of all people in that age group in the U.S. have moderate to severe dental fluorosis. Many experts state that dental fluorosis is the first visible sign of fluoride poisoning."

"Former Councilwoman Donna Westfall brought this to the attention of the Crescent City, city council and was successful in getting the parts per million (ppm) reduced to .7 reminding the council that the type of chemical used was a toxic industrial waste and calling it “poison”. stating, “Reducing the ppm was a step in the right direction, but not enough”. Then, it was disclosed months later that the water department had problems maintaining it at .7ppm; that it consistently tested at higher ppm’s."

"Grape products, including raisins and fruit juices, contain high levels of fluoride from Cryolite, a fluoride-containing pesticide used on grapes. Wheat is another food containing high levels of fluoride due to pesticides, and is featured predominately on children’s breakfast tables in the form of cereal. Soda pop, another childhood favorite, also contains high levels of fluoride. Deboned chicken, the kind kids love to eat in the form of chicken tenders, contain some of the highest levels of fluoride."

"The case in Maryland is just the beginning. A blog for activist lawyers has a series of posts outlining different avenues that municipalities and companies, even the EPA, can be sued for damages such as fluorosis. The evidence, they find, is clear that fluoride is harmful and that agencies know this, as do food producers. It won’t be long before more people wake up to this fact and start thinking of ways to redress a grievance against these agencies or city governments."
http://www.crescentcitytimes.com/?p=1785

"Jesse Salisbury, who brought the problems of fluoride to the city council many years ago and was ignored until he came to me, can now stop wondering why we were throwing so much money away. 99+% of the money spent was literally going down the drain. In a scheme that defies common sense, only 1% of the fluoride was ingested. His new concern is wondering what the city will do with the money saved."
http://www.crescentcitytimes.com/?p=1377

"Fluoride Free Windsor was well organized. In response to the “experts” calling the anti-fluoride group fear mongers, Ayesha Drouillard, part of Fluoride Free Windsor threw it right back in their face and accused them of fear mongering."
http://www.crescentcitytimes.com/?p=2106
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[*] posted on 15-2-2013 at 08:00


If no one has said it yet, just get some fluorite (calcium fluoride). Yes, water soluble fluorides are a nasty poison. Even worst than lead. The trick is to rinse with a weak fluoride solution for a few minutes, and then spit it out. The F+ will substitute on the enamel, and there-by, make ones teeth stronger.

The way I deal w/ drinking water is to RO, and get practically everything out of the water. Then I add back in small amounts of (K, Mg, Li) etc. I want to emulate that NYNY grape flavor in my water, and completely mineral stripped water is by no means healthy.
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[*] posted on 15-2-2013 at 08:14


Quote: Originally posted by Morgan  
"Secretary of Health and Human Services, Kathleen Sebelius gave notice in the January 13, 2011 Federal Register (pages 2383-86) that 41% of all people in the U.S. who were 12 to 15 years old between 1999 and 2004 have dental fluorosis from ingesting too much fluoride, primarily from drinking fluoridated water and swallowing fluoridated toothpaste, both occuring before they were 9 years old."

"Dental fluorosis results in lacy white marking on teeth in milder cases and brown stains and pitted, crumbly teeth in moderate to severe cases. Secretary Sebelius states that 3.6% (or 1 in 27) of all people in that age group in the U.S. have moderate to severe dental fluorosis. Many experts state that dental fluorosis is the first visible sign of fluoride poisoning."

"Former Councilwoman Donna Westfall brought this to the attention of the Crescent City, city council and was successful in getting the parts per million (ppm) reduced to .7 reminding the council that the type of chemical used was a toxic industrial waste and calling it “poison”. stating, “Reducing the ppm was a step in the right direction, but not enough”. Then, it was disclosed months later that the water department had problems maintaining it at .7ppm; that it consistently tested at higher ppm’s."

"Grape products, including raisins and fruit juices, contain high levels of fluoride from Cryolite, a fluoride-containing pesticide used on grapes. Wheat is another food containing high levels of fluoride due to pesticides, and is featured predominately on children’s breakfast tables in the form of cereal. Soda pop, another childhood favorite, also contains high levels of fluoride. Deboned chicken, the kind kids love to eat in the form of chicken tenders, contain some of the highest levels of fluoride."

"The case in Maryland is just the beginning. A blog for activist lawyers has a series of posts outlining different avenues that municipalities and companies, even the EPA, can be sued for damages such as fluorosis. The evidence, they find, is clear that fluoride is harmful and that agencies know this, as do food producers. It won’t be long before more people wake up to this fact and start thinking of ways to redress a grievance against these agencies or city governments."
http://www.crescentcitytimes.com/?p=1785

"Jesse Salisbury, who brought the problems of fluoride to the city council many years ago and was ignored until he came to me, can now stop wondering why we were throwing so much money away. 99+% of the money spent was literally going down the drain. In a scheme that defies common sense, only 1% of the fluoride was ingested. His new concern is wondering what the city will do with the money saved."
http://www.crescentcitytimes.com/?p=1377

"Fluoride Free Windsor was well organized. In response to the “experts” calling the anti-fluoride group fear mongers, Ayesha Drouillard, part of Fluoride Free Windsor threw it right back in their face and accused them of fear mongering."
http://www.crescentcitytimes.com/?p=2106


1. How severe? A couple of white lines on your teeth isn't cause for panic.
2. Dying is the first sign of death.
3. I did the math earlier in the thread; assuming no fluoride leaves your system, you'd be long dead from water ingestion before the fluoride got to you.
4. Actual data is needed. "High, higher and highest" are not nearly enough.
5. Isn't this a point for us? If 1% of .7 ppm was ingested, that's 7^-3 ppm, or approximately such a low level that no one should care.
6. I hate to say it, but this is just an outright, elementary-school defense of "No U!". Not even close to a scientific source.




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[*] posted on 15-2-2013 at 12:15


"The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has re-evaluated the current science on fluoride and is taking steps to begin a phased-down withdrawal of the pesticide sulfuryl fluoride, a pesticide that breaks down into fluoride and is commonly used in food storage and processing facilities. Sulfuryl fluoride is currently registered for the control of insect pests in stored grains, dried fruits, tree nuts, coffee and cocoa beans, and for use in food handling and processing facilities. Although sulfuryl fluoride residues in food contribute only a very small portion of total exposure to fluoride, when combined with other fluoride exposure pathways, including drinking water and toothpaste, EPA has concluded that the tolerance (legal residue limits on food) no longer meets the safety standard under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FFDCA) and the tolerances for sulfuryl fluoride should be withdrawn."
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/sulfuryl-fluoride/evaluations....
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[*] posted on 20-2-2013 at 18:14


Na3AlF6 insecticide/pesticide tidbits

"Cryolite is an insecticide used on many fruits, vegetables and
ornamental crops to protect against leaf eating pests. Currently, the predominant uses are on grapes, potatoes and citrus. Cryolite is formulated as dusts, wettable powders and water dispersable granulars and can be applied by ground or air equipment. Multiple applications at high rates are typical. The highest single application rate is 30 lbs/acre on citrus and
ornamentals; the highest seasonal rate from multiple applications is 154 lbs/acre on lettuce."

"People may be exposed to residues of cryolite through the diet.
Tolerances or maximum residue limits have been established for the fluorine compounds cryolite and synthetic cryolite in or on raw agricultural commodities. These include a regional registration tolerance for kiwi-fruit and a time-limited tolerance to expire May 6, 1996, on potatoes. EPA has reassessed the cryolite tolerances and found that some are acceptable, others must be revoked because the registrants have chosen not to support the uses; and based on new data, tolerances will be proposed/established for cabbage, citrus, collards, eggplant, lettuce (head and leaf), peaches, potatoes and tomatoes."

"There are several currently registered uses for cryolite that are not being supported and their tolerances are being proposed for revocation: apples, apricots, beans, beets (roots and tops), blackberries, boysenberries, carrots, corn, dewberries, kale, loganberries, mustard greens, nectarines, okra, peanuts, pears, peas, quinces, radishes (roots and tops), turnips (roots
and tops) and youngberries."

"The Agency will propose in the Federal Register permanent
tolerances for potatoes at 2 ppm and potato waste at 22 ppm."

"EPA has determined that the following uses of cryolite have been supported and are eligible for reregistration: broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, citrus fruits, collards, cranberries, cucumbers, eggplant, grapes, kohlrabi, lettuce (leaf and head), melons, peaches, peppers, plums (fresh prunes), pumpkins, squash (winter and summer), tomatoes, kiwi, potatoes, ornamental herbaceous plants, ornamental
nonflowering plants, ornamental woody shrubs and vines and shade trees."
http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/0087fact.pdf

I was thinking of all the truck loads of hydrofluorosilicic acid, sodium hexafluoride, and sodium fluoride for all the water treatment plants in cities that eventually a portion finds their way into the Mississippi River along with cryolite and other fluoride wastes. And how like the human body, fluorides accumulate in the sediments over a lifetime.

"While the Government of Canada Environmental Protection Act109 - estimated adverse effect thresholds (lethal, growth impairment and egg production) are 0.28 mg/L fluoride for
fresh water species and 0.5 mg/L fluoride for marine species. The impact of Fluoride on surface water was also accepted by the U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry110 when they found that fluorides from water fluoridation will contribute to surface water directly and will deposit into sediment, where they are strongly attached to sediment particles. The Agency reported how Fluoride forms stable complexes with calcium and magnesium in natural waters and how Fluorine cannot be destroyed in the environment it can only change its form."

"The agency noted that when deposited on land, fluorides are strongly retained by soil, forming strong associations with soil components and found that leaching removes only a small amount about 0.5-6% of fluorides from soils. The agency reported how Fluorides may be taken up from soil and
accumulate in plants and that animals that eat fluoride-containing plants may accumulate fluoride. The U.S EPA has similarly reported how urban wastewater bio-solids accumulate fluoride in soils."

“Whether residual fluorosilicates or fluorosilicon(IV) complexes will be detectable with current instrumentation is debatable. Accordingly, there is a need for further study of heteroleptic fluoride complexes (especially with the common anions in drinking water) of aluminum(III) and possibly other metal
cations.”
Urbansky went on to say:
“It is not clear if current analytical techniques are capable of detecting whatever species exist under actual drinking water conditions, and such knowledge is critical for the formulation of sound policy and regulation. Table 6 lists species that may exist in fluoridated water systems.”
Source:Fate of Fluorosilicate Drinking Water Additives, Chemical Reviews, 2002, Vol. 102, No. 8
“Ideally, we would like to be able to measures or at least calculate the concentrations of those species that do exist and rule out those that do not. Accomplishing this will be no small task, When metal cations are thrown into the mix (as would be the case in a real drinking water matrix), the problem becomes
even more difficult."
Urbansky further noted that:
“The kinetics of the dissociation and hydrolysis of hexafluorosilicate are poorly understood from a mechanistic or fundamental perspective. Most of the studies have been rather crude, simply adding a certain amount of the material to water (deionized) and waiting a set time. The analytical tools applied have not necessarily been chosen for their optimal performance on such a task. The stability of silicon tetrafluoride in water, the formation of aquo (or other) adducts, and the rate of SiF4 hydrolysis have been studied in a very cursory fashion and barely at all. Accelerative effects expected from various metal
cations or hydrogen ion have not been fully probed.”
http://www.enviro.ie/Rebuttal_June_2012.pdf

"Other applications for sodium hexafluorosilicate include its use in enamels/enamel frits for china and porcelain, in opalescent glass, metallurgy (aluminum and beryllium), glue, ore flotation, leather and wood preservatives, and in insecticides and rodenticides. It has been used in the manufacture of pure silicon, as a gelling agent in the production of molded latex foam, and as a fluorinating agent in organic synthesis to convert organodichlorophosphorus compounds to the corresponding organodifluorophosphorus compound. In veterinary practice, external application of sodium hexafluorosilicate combats lice and mosquitoes on cattle, sheep, swine, and poultry, and oral administration combats roundworms and possibly whipworms in swine and prevents dental caries in rats. Apparently, all pesticidal products had their registrations cancelled or they were discontinued by the early 1990s."
"Fluorosilicic acid is used in the tanning of animal hides and skins, in ceramics and glass, in technical paints, in oil well acidizing, in the manufacture of hydrogen fluoride, for the sterilization of equipment (e.g., in brewing and bottling establishments and for copper and brass vehicles), and in electroplating. It is also employed as an impregnating ingredient to preserve wood and harden masonry and for the removal of mold as well as rust and stain in textiles."
http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/chem_background/exsumpdf...

HUMANS
The Institute of Medicine, Food and Nutrition Board has estimated that the tolerable upper limit for human daily intake of fluoride is 10 mg per day for adults and children over 8 years of age.19 Ten independent U.S. and Canadian studies published from 1958 to 1987 showed that dietary fluoride intakes by adults ranged from 1.4 to 3.4 mg/day in areas where the water fluoride concentration was 1.0 mg/L.
http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/pdf/pollick.pdf

"Fluoride binds to Ca2+, Mg2+, and Mn2+, acting as a direct cellular poison (including bacterial cells, hence its use in dental hygiene). At high levels most fluorides are corrosive to tissue. In bone, fluoride binds calcium and replaces the hydroxyl groups in the mineral part of bone, which is mostly hydroxyapatite. In teeth developed during fluoride ingestion, the enamel is less soluble (protective) and more dense (brittle, if excessive). In addition, faulty mineralization of teeth and bones occurs when excessive fluoride interferes with intracellular calcium metabolism and damages ameloblasts and odontoblasts."
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/211...

Interesting read on sulfuryl fluoride (pages 6,7, and 8)
Oreos, powdered eggs, 4 brands of dog food, Doritos, cake mix, baking soda, coffee beans, cocoa beans, coconut flakes, ham, peppercorn, peanuts, garlic powder, dried fruit and nuts, granola, etc. Baking soda was particularly interesting.
Also there's a concern of "bound" fluorides. I can't help but wonder if walnuts or other oily foods don't oxidize in some way in this gas.
"HED doesn't have a satisfactory theory to explain these observations at this time." (page 8)
"Fluoride anion is a highly reactive molecule, that may react with food components and become bound."
"significant "loss" of fluoride with time in wheat flour." (page 7)
"highly dependent on the property of those foods, primarily fat and protein content." (page 34)
http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/chem_search/cleared_reviews/csr_...

The WHO
"The toxic effects of high fluoride intake are due to the fact that it is a direct cellular poison, which binds calcium and interferes with the activity of proteolytic and glycolytic enzymes."
"Ingested fluoride reacts with gastric acid to produce hydrofluoric acid in the stomach."

"In skeletal fluorosis, fluoride accumulates progressively in the bone over many years. Early symptoms include stiffness and pain in the joints. Crippling skeletal fluorosis is associated with osteosclerosis, calcification of tendons and ligaments, and bone deformities. There is an elevated risk of skeletal effects at fluoride intakes above 6 mg/day. These intake levels occur in many areas of the world because of naturally high fluoride levels in the groundwater, notably in the Rift Valley of East Africa and in China."
http://www.who.int/ipcs/features/fluoride.pdf

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[*] posted on 20-2-2013 at 22:25


Typical TDS levels in the US are about 250ppm. That is, tap water is about 99.975% H2O. How many chemicals actually get anywhere near this? Fluoride levels are 0.8 ppm in this location. Oral rat LD50 is 125mg/kg. for sodium fluosilicate, the additive used here. For an average male, 70kg, the lethal dose is 8.75g, assuming equal tolerance. To accumulate this one would have to drink about 11 million litres. But in the mean time, Ca++ ions would convert any F- ions into bone structure, deactivating it - or incorporate it into teeth... And any cellular damage would be repaired by the usual processes.

It's another of those health conspiration theories. Bottled water is, to me one of the biggest scams perpetrated on an extremely ignorant public. Drink beer, like I do - much healthier. A more likely danger in your water is due to human and/or animal faeces in the form of E.Coli bacteria.

Be far more concerned about legal drugs containing organic fluorine - they are far more likely to be banned than fluoride, statistically.

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[*] posted on 21-2-2013 at 12:05


I'm still waiting for the evidence of the epidemic.
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[*] posted on 21-2-2013 at 15:19


ANALYTICAL METHODS
"Fluorine gas is too reactive to exist in biological or environmental samples. Indeed, fluorine is too reactive to be analyzed directly by conventional methods, but rather is quantitatively converted to chlorine gas and the latter is analyzed (Shia 1994). The methods discussed below are for the analysis of the fluoride ion, or in the case of gaseous acid fluorides, hydrogen fluoride. The particular fluorine molecule is rarely identified."

"There is extensive literature on the ISE methodology because it is the most frequently used method for fluoride measurement in biological media. The fluoride ion selective membrane utilizes a membrane consisting of a slice of a single crystal of lanthanum fluoride that has been doped with europium (II) fluoride to improve its conductivity (Skoog et al. 1990). It has a theoretical response to changes in fluoride ion activity in the range of 100–10-6 M. It is selective to fluoride over other common anions by
several orders of magnitude; only hydroxide ion causes serious interference. The pH of the solution analyzed is adjusted to approximately 5 to eliminate interference."

"The GC method has the advantage of high sensitivity—nanogram quantities of fluoride are detectable in a milliliter of urine or plasma. This method is also useful for assessing the
fluoride released from fluorine-containing drugs in biological fluids. The detection of bound fluorine provides an advantage over the ISE technique, which is not suitable for bound or organic fluoride measurements. It should also be noted that the aluminum ion may cause interference under the operating
conditions of the GC, as it does with the ISE method."
"Fluoride-specific electrodes are commercially available. The
method detects only free fluoride ions in solution. Because of the inherent restriction of this technique, several approaches have been recommended to prepare the sample for analysis. Lopez and Navia (1988)assayed total fluoride (bound and free) in food and beverages by initially acid hydrolyzing samples at
100 °C in borosilicate vials."

"Fluoride ions form stable, colorless complexes with certain multivalent ions, such as (AlF6)3-, (FeF6)3-, and (ZrF6)3-. Most colorimetric methods for the determination of fluoride are based on the bleaching of colored complexes of these metals with organic dyes when fluoride is added (WHO 1984). The degree of bleaching is determined with a spectrophotometer, and the concentration of fluoride ions is assessed by comparison with standard solutions. In EPA Method 340.1, the sodium 2-(parasulfophenylazo)-1,8-dihydroxy-3,6-naphthalenedisulfonate (SPADNS) reagent is used, and the color loss is measured at 570 nm (EPA 1998c). In EPA Method 340.3, the red cerium complex with alizarin complex one turns blue on the addition of fluoride (EPA 1998c)."

"Methods determine the fluoride concentration and not the particular fluorine-containing compound. Therefore, analytical methods do not distinguish between parent compound and degradation product. The ISE method is the most common method for measuring fluoride in environmental samples. It is a convenient, sensitive, and reliable method, but fluoride ions must first be released from any matrix and rendered free
in solution."
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp11-c7.pdf
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