Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2    4
Author: Subject: PLX type explosives
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-7-2008 at 01:41


Perhaps TNP could dissolve in MEKP if you use pure MEKP, as in MEKP/AP at 50:50 MEKP is already saturated with AP so it cant dissolve more things.



View user's profile View All Posts By User
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
********




Posts: 3331
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-7-2008 at 14:18


Be careful with methylhalides, very toxic stuff. Make sure you have a method for destroying them (especially methyliodide) during work up.



One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 3-7-2008 at 07:48


Quote:
Originally posted by 497
Another possible high powered explosive solvent for picric acid is methyl nitrate. I don't know anything about the solubility, but MN is substantially more powerful and brisant than nitromethane and also easier to make than it is to get nitromethane for most of us. I know MN is a bit unstable, maybe the picric acid would help, or maybe the addition of a third compound to help the solubility and/or stability? It would surely have ungodly brisance.
[Edited on 2-7-2008 by 497]


Even if it would be fun to do, you would have the worst part of the two compounds...surely not something to store for long...
1°)Nitromethane is relatively resistant to TNP acidity but methyl nitrate is a sensitive ester...for sure some HONO2 will be set free and this is precisely the component that washing process try to get rid of and what is responsible of nitric ester decay and unstability --> mix is for sure prone to self heating and runnaway.
2°)TNP will sensitise methyl nitrate to metals leading to unsafe storage properties or excessive sensitivity




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
497
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: HSbF6

[*] posted on 3-7-2008 at 17:59


I was afraid of that. And I suppose something neutral and stable like ammonium picrate would be insoluble...
Only way to know for sure would be to test..

A bit off topic, I was looking at hydroxylamine synthesis and wondered, what are the properties of hydroxylammonium picrate (I know it exists)? Also going a bit farther, I wonder what 3,4-diaminofurazan picrate would be like? Probably nothing outstanding, but it can't hurt to ask.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Formatik
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 927
Registered: 25-3-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: equilibrium

[*] posted on 7-8-2008 at 23:13
Sensitized nitroparaffin


An interesting patent for this is USP3132060 various amines (propylene diamine, hydrazine, dimethylhydrazine, diaminotoluene, pyrrole, etc) are tested.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bonelesss
Harmless
*




Posts: 18
Registered: 31-8-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 31-8-2011 at 12:02




First, nice to be here again, it`s been almost 7 years or so!

I have that 2 part epoxy. B part is called hardener and it contains diethylenetriamine. It´s white glue like paste. I wonder if this could work with NM? My NM is 100%.
And i`ve been reading those old pdf-files witch i have and there was mentioned that aqueonous ammonia works too. I`m trying to get that in my hands. I think that is 24.5% or 28% if i get it. But i`ve been trying to find right percentages to sensitized NM. Are those same if you use aniline or ethylenediamine 5-6 %?
Sorry if it sounds stupid but it has been such a long time since i`ve been thinking about those things....

[Edited on 31-8-2011 by bonelesss]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.

[*] posted on 1-9-2011 at 09:30


Quote: Originally posted by bonelesss  

diethylenetriamine. It´s white glue like paste. I wonder if this could work with NM? My NM is 100%.


hi...

pure diethylenetriamine melts at 8C...take it into a freezer and see what happens...

btw, if you r able to make TNP, you can mix it - the TNP will dissolve into the NM and make it stronger (higher VoD and density)...mixing 30% of (70%)HNO3 into the pure NM will also make a strong LX

View user's profile View All Posts By User
bonelesss
Harmless
*




Posts: 18
Registered: 31-8-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-9-2011 at 05:57


ok thx i test that freezer thing.

I have lots of NM but HNO3 is so hard to get and very expensive. Therefore i dreamed mix Aqueonous Ammonia to sensitize NM. I try save my HNO3 for making ETN.

Sorry my bad English it`s not my first language

[Edited on 2-9-2011 by bonelesss]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bonelesss
Harmless
*




Posts: 18
Registered: 31-8-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-9-2011 at 03:51


Ok I know you can sensitize NM with aqueous ammonia.But i failed to find right ratios. I´ve been search here, old E&W forum
pages,several pdf-files etc.

-some say use every 100ml NM 5-10ml ammonia
-if you have 5% ammonia use 1 litre for 1 litre NM
-niromethane liquid explosive pdf-file says one-half pint aqueous ammonia sensitize one gallon NM but not mention which % ammonia is.

I thought if my aqueous ammonia is 20% is 250ml per 1 liter NM right ratio?
I know you could use various amines such as diethylamine,triethylamine,ethylenediamine,aniline and so on
but i find place to get ammonia without questions or suspicious.


[Edited on 16-9-2011 by bonelesss]

[Edited on 16-9-2011 by bonelesss]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.

[*] posted on 16-9-2011 at 06:58


Quote: Originally posted by bonelesss  
Ok I now you can sensitize NM with aqueous ammonia.But i failed to find right ratios. I´ve been search here, old E&W forum
pages,several pdf-files etc.

-some say use every 100ml NM 5-10ml ammonia
-if you have 5% ammonia use 1 litre for 1 litre NM
-niromethane liquid explosive pdf-file says one-half pint aqueous ammonia sensitize one gallon NM but not mention which % ammonia is.

I thought if my aqueous ammonia is 20% is 250ml per 1 liter NM right ratio?
I now you could use various amines such as diethylamine,triethylamine,ethylenediamine,aniline and so on
but i find place to get ammonia without questions or suspicious.


oh boy...i wouldnt use ammonia-solution under 70%...

if you use 20% you got soo many h2o/other bullshit in your expensive NM, that the power/VOD will be very weak and it will become hard to ignite...

then, you better use gib a Cap or a booster and go for pure NM !

Dude, get Ammoniumnitrate and make ANNM - ists powerful enough for shaped charges , cheap and easy to handly...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bonelesss
Harmless
*




Posts: 18
Registered: 31-8-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 16-9-2011 at 07:30


I have experience of ANNM and i got AN and lots of NM,that´s why i would like to try test liquid explosives.And yes I know I could use HNO3 to sensitize NM but I need that HNO3 for different experiments.
Here it´s easier to get NM than AN.

[Edited on 16-9-2011 by bonelesss]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
KemiRockarFett
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 84
Registered: 23-7-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 27-11-2011 at 08:28


Hexamethylentetraamine is possible to use as sensitizer, 3 % by volume with nitromethane:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=Get...

As somebody wrote above that ethylendiamine is an explosive, no its not. Its not possibile to detonate any ordinary amines. They have to have the nitrogen bonded to a hetero like atom to be instable. --> NCl3 is the simplest example.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
hissingnoise
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 3775
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline

Mood: Pulverulescent!

[*] posted on 27-11-2011 at 08:59


Quote:
oh boy...i wouldnt use ammonia-solution under 70%...

Oh boy - where would you get ammonia solution with a concentration above 70% - or above 35% for that matter . . . ?

View user's profile View All Posts By User
VladimirLem
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 204
Registered: 24-5-2010
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have no fear <Vlad> is here.

[*] posted on 27-11-2011 at 12:36


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
oh boy...i wouldnt use ammonia-solution under 70%...

Oh boy - where would you get ammonia solution with a concentration above 70% - or above 35% for that matter . . . ?



oh snap :D

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Uncle Hammer
Harmless
*




Posts: 2
Registered: 24-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: Happy

[*] posted on 24-12-2011 at 09:40


I do hope that this is the right thread to inquire to. I used to have an account here but it was quite a few years ago and I have long since forgotten which email i used.

I wonder if i may get a little help relation to the subject above with two criteria in mind. Firstly, safety and secondly initiation sensitivity.

I recently met a fellow engineer who i would like to help. My expertise is Materials but back in the day when i was a young whipper snapper, energetic materials were a keen interest. Favorites mainly included one's that didn't give me a heart attack particularly TNP, but i also have some experience with organic peroxides HMTD, and HNM. A little too unforgiving tbh but i was young. I decided after attending a conference For the European federation for Explosive Engineers years back that it was a little too narrow for my liking, and my gala dinner table was comprised of coarse hillbilly halfwits . Disappointing, as it wasn't a reflection of rest of the people there many of which were lovely. Anyway this is getting long...

I said I would at least look into possibilities for his tree stump removal problems. He asked my opinion of how to use standard ANFO, to which i replied that he may have a little trouble with INITIATION. I have been attempting to recall some of my past interest. I thought firstly of guncottons, but i didn't like the idea of a non chemist, messing around with aqua fortis and the like. Then i thought of an old invention of a SSE by MERL, If i remember correctly. It was a site sensitized binary, very safe, half decent Det. Vel and totally safe until mixed, and of course cap sensitive. The formula was not for disclosure but i thought i bet it's it's a nitroparaffin based one.

I was thinking about how i might be able to safely suggest some possible comps for him. He has quite a bit of experience on his massive estate/farm with NG Dynamites, that he used to be able to buy (at silly cheap prices) but i wonder if any of my ideas could be analysed by some of you pro's?

I'm going to look into glass microballoons, gelatinizing agents (to stop them floating around NC lacquer???) and possible the use of primary, secondary or tertiary amines as sensitizers, possibly in the form of epoxy curing agents. Possible addition of AN. I'm not going to start fooling around unless I'm certain things are safe, the biggest problem i think will be insensitivity, I'm not sure what initiation systems he can get hold of . I'm not asking for spoon feeding I'm actually quite enjoying all the reading, but any SAFETY pointers would be great.

Please don't bark, and please don't say forget it, it's just patronizing. I'm not at all stupid, but it has been quite a while since my energetic mat days. A very Merry Christmas to you all and thanks in advance. xx



[Edited on 24-12-2011 by Uncle Hammer]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 24-12-2011 at 10:34


Small scale tests are the best way to start, and a well made compound cap, containing a sensitive secondary like PETN or ETN will solve many insensitivity issues. There are a lot of threads here, and online information regarding amateur and industrial safety in the explosives field. The search engine is your friend. If your hell-bent on using cellulose nitrate as a bursting charge, a highly brisant booster may be needed. TNP would be a suitable choice. IIRC guncotton and even DBSP can be tricky to initiate properly without a large booster.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
freedompyro
holmes1880





Posts: 116
Registered: 16-6-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 24-12-2011 at 13:41


Some types of DBSP that contain 35% or higher Nitroglycerin can be initiated high order with as low as 250mg HMTD.

In fact, if you reload your ammo incorrectly with the wrong amount of or type of DBSP powder it's a well documented fact you can accidentally get it to detonate and ruin your gun.

[Edited on 24-12-2011 by freedompyro]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Uncle Hammer
Harmless
*




Posts: 2
Registered: 24-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: Happy

[*] posted on 24-12-2011 at 15:08


Many thanks for the above posts. I think PETN and other nitric esters are a little too much work for him. I could do that myself to help him but really the essence of my post was optimization of a binary of sorts as i think the holding of explosives of the above calibre, let alone any synthesis defies the safety and ease of use goal i'm trying to help him with.

Any personal experience with the use of microballoons and/or amine bases as sensitizers or any other suggestions would be really helpful. In the mean time i shall use the search engine to draw on peeps with the air of explosive authority.

Axt, any pearls of wisdom?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
NeonPulse
National Hazard
****




Posts: 412
Registered: 29-6-2013
Location: The other end of the internet.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Everclear or Neverclear. Can't decide.

[*] posted on 6-7-2013 at 18:47


Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem  
Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote:
oh boy...i wouldnt use ammonia-solution under 70%...

Oh boy - where would you get ammonia solution with a concentration above 70% - or above 35% for that matter . . . ?



oh snap :D

Perhaps smelling salts may be a viable source of strong ammonia. i think they contain ammonium hydroxide which could be usefull for this purpose.



Where there is a will
there is a way.

AllCheMystery!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWbbidIY4v57uczsl0Fgv7w?vie...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Ral123
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 6-7-2013 at 23:10


Let's put a list of NM sensitizers:
I know WFNA works, also H2SO4, I've heard of hexamine. What's the problem of using plain NM? Isn't 40g TNP going to wake it up?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
NeonPulse
National Hazard
****




Posts: 412
Registered: 29-6-2013
Location: The other end of the internet.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Everclear or Neverclear. Can't decide.

[*] posted on 7-7-2013 at 17:37


EDA, aniline, also the part B of epoxy resin glue, Titan Bond or araldite super strength is satisfactory i have heard,and hexamine too - pretty much any amine. but they need a booster to have a decent result, why waste perfectly good nitric when there are so many other options. recently i tried a patent which uses aniline hydrochloride dissolved in minimal solvent and then into the nitromethane, it worked pretty well with etn booster itwas very brisant and made a pretty sharp kind of boom. i want to put some in a shaped charge and see how it goes.



Where there is a will
there is a way.

AllCheMystery!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWbbidIY4v57uczsl0Fgv7w?vie...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Ral123
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 7-7-2013 at 22:19


I suspect NM/NA will generate about 10 times more pressure then NM with inert sensitizer and add 2000m/s.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
NeonPulse
National Hazard
****




Posts: 412
Registered: 29-6-2013
Location: The other end of the internet.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Everclear or Neverclear. Can't decide.

[*] posted on 8-7-2013 at 01:22


Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
I suspect NM/NA will generate about 10 times more pressure then NM with inert sensitizer and add 2000m/s.
any idea what the Vod of NM-NAthat is 70%NM-30%NA would be? How much higher than the plx mixtures?



Where there is a will
there is a way.

AllCheMystery!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWbbidIY4v57uczsl0Fgv7w?vie...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
gnitseretni
National Hazard
****




Posts: 280
Registered: 5-1-2007
Location: Houston
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-7-2013 at 03:18


The 70/30 ratio of NM/NA is when you use 70% HNO3. How much would you use when using 90%+ concentrated HNO3?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
SURT Tech.
Harmless
*




Posts: 7
Registered: 28-6-2013
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-7-2013 at 03:45


Around 60/40.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2    4

  Go To Top