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blogfast25
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A New Physics Theory of Life
How the Second Law may explain the emergence of life.
| Quote: | | At the heart of England’s idea is the second law of thermodynamics, also known as the law of increasing entropy or the “arrow of time.” Hot
things cool down, gas diffuses through air, eggs scramble but never spontaneously unscramble; in short, energy tends to disperse or spread out as time
progresses. Entropy is a measure of this tendency, quantifying how dispersed the energy is among the particles in a system, and how diffuse those
particles are throughout space. It increases as a simple matter of probability: There are more ways for energy to be spread out than for it to be
concentrated. Thus, as particles in a system move around and interact, they will, through sheer chance, tend to adopt configurations in which the
energy is spread out. Eventually, the system arrives at a state of maximum entropy called “thermodynamic equilibrium,” in which energy is
uniformly distributed. A cup of coffee and the room it sits in become the same temperature, for example. As long as the cup and the room are left
alone, this process is irreversible. The coffee never spontaneously heats up again because the odds are overwhelmingly stacked against so much of the
room’s energy randomly concentrating in its atoms. |
| Quote: | | Self-replication (or reproduction, in biological terms), the process that drives the evolution of life on Earth, is one such mechanism by which a
system might dissipate an increasing amount of energy over time. As England put it, “A great way of dissipating more is to make more copies of
yourself.” In a September paper in the Journal of Chemical Physics, he reported the theoretical minimum amount of dissipation that can occur during
the self-replication of RNA molecules and bacterial cells, and showed that it is very close to the actual amounts these systems dissipate when
replicating. He also showed that RNA, the nucleic acid that many scientists believe served as the precursor to DNA-based life, is a particularly cheap
building material. Once RNA arose, he argues, its “Darwinian takeover” was perhaps not surprising. |
https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory...
Not new but kind of new to me...
[Edited on 22-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Quote:
" In a September paper in the Journal of Chemical Physics, he reported the theoretical minimum amount of dissipation that can occur during the
self-replication of RNA molecules and bacterial cells, and showed that it is very close to the actual amounts these systems dissipate when
replicating."
Exert:
" the theoretical minimum amount of dissipation that can occur during the self-replication of RNA molecules and bacterial cells"
I do not understand this bit. How is it possible to quantify this?
I see the minimum as zero, unless you used the cup, and room analogy. then the room would apply, unless you took the planet, and atmosphere into
account.
What point would be the theoretical minimum?
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blogfast25
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Zombie:
I don't pretend to understand it all.
It is not a new idea though. It used to be believed that the existence of living things violates the Second Law because living things are highly
ordered (low Entropy). We've known for a while this is not true because all living things dissipate low quality heat, which is highly Entropic,
thereby 'restoring the balance' as it were. This work by England builds on work by the Nobel Laureate Ilya Prigogine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Prigogine
[Edited on 22-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Wow. You really need one of those whole room chalk boards to follow those concepts.
Each alone seems realistic but what an overall fabric they weave. I wish I had time to learn everything.
"What point would be the theoretical minimum? "
Actually between you're link, and the links contained in it, I think I have my answer.
The Theoretical minimum would be the point where the sources dissipation no longer had an affect upon its environment.
I'm gonna stick with that for awhile.
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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  | The Theoretical minimum would be the point where the sources dissipation no longer had an affect upon its environment.
I'm gonna stick with that for awhile. |
For the sources (living things) to have no effect on their environment they have to be dead.
Even the most cold blooded animals, living in the coldest environments, operate at a temperature slightly higher than that of their environment. By
definition they radiate heat to that environment.
Unless they die: they then cool down to that environment's temperature and stop dissipating.
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Zombie
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Well I'm thinking if you took one person, and stuck him in lets say a room. That room would be somewhat effected by that persons radiant energy loss
but the entire house, much less. Then the street the house was on not at all. I am assuming the reference has to do with Direct impact on its
environment. Radiant energy wise.
So the theoretical minimum would be somewhere between the room, and the house. Theoretically speaking of course.
No wonder these guys choose to think for a living. You could so easily get lost in there. Everything becomes possible at some point.
[Edited on 2-22-2015 by Zombie]
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blogfast25
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Nope. Loads of things remain impossible. Like violating the First or Second Law for instance. Machines are never 100 % energy efficient, "perpetual
motion machines" always grind to a halt at some point.
England's work doesn't violate any known laws, he just combines them in a new way. So say the experts.
His work will require empirical corroboration, that's an interesting part of it.
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Zombie
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Let me ask this.
If you were in deep space, and pushed of a stationary (relative) object, is it not possible you would keep moving forever?
Wouldn't the act of pushing off be considered an engine? Same a a bow / arrow. The bow could be considered an engine.
Serious question. Perhaps it should not be asked in this thread tho.
Sorry if is in the wrong place.
[Edited on 2-22-2015 by Zombie]
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blogfast25
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Deep space isn't empty. Small amounts of molecules still exert drag on a moving object. It may take a trillion years to come to a halt but it will. If
it doesn't smash into another object, of course.
A bow is not an engine. An engine converts heat to work or work to heat (a heat pump, to be precise). A bow doesn't do that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine
A bow converts potential energy to kinetic energy and not perfectly efficiently either. The string always heat up a little bit so that some of the
mechanical work you put into it (setting up the arrow) is lost.
[Edited on 22-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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This is what I was basing the bow example on. (from the same link)
"In general an engine converts energy to mechanical work. Heat engines distinguish themselves from other types of engines by the fact that their
efficiency is fundamentally limited by Carnot's theorem.[3]"
I've many times heard a trebuchet refer-d to as an engine or a rope wound hammer ie: ancient mining tools.
This all has nothing to do with your thread tho.
Perhaps I'll bring it up in another. My mind tends to wander.
Hope you're feeling better. Nite time for me...
[Edited on 2-22-2015 by Zombie]
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blogfast25
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Trebuchets, bows, catapults etc are machines that rely on storing elastic energy and then releasing it when you 'pull the trigger'.
But you NEVER get 100.00000000 % of the elastic energy back: some of it is converted to heat.
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Chemosynthesis
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Also consider sound. Of you can hear something, this is likely vibrational energy that was not converted into useable work, and instead vibrates the
air as sound waves. In a truly efficient system, this would probably be directionalized away from, or at least absorbed prior to hearing.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis | | Also consider sound. Of you can hear something, this is likely vibrational energy that was not converted into useable work, and instead vibrates the
air as sound waves. In a truly efficient system, this would probably be directionalized away from, or at least absorbed prior to hearing.
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I don't understand your point.
A tuning fork vibrates (say in the audible spectrum) and causes the elastic medium (air) to form travelling vibrations (waves) by transferring
part of its vibrational energy to it.
Sound waves now are emitted from the fork as spherical wave fronts.
Part of those waves hit a human ear and the tympanic membrane, which resonates with the same frequency of the sound wave. Part of the energy received
by the tympanic membrane is converted into electrical signals, interpreted by the brain as sound.
How does this relate to engines or machines and entropy/energy dissipation?
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Zombie
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I think I see the point there.
Theoretical minimum... At some point in space the sound wave would be so far dispersed that is can no longer be considered as a "unit".
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | I think I see the point there.
Theoretical minimum... At some point in space the sound wave would be so far dispersed that is can no longer be considered as a "unit".
|
What do you mean, a "unit"?
You're randomly connecting 'things', erm... 'stuff'.
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Zombie
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A cohesive structure. A measurable unit.
A sound wave can be measured in DB or wave lengths but at some point the ability to measure the molecular energy as a unitized whole ceases.
At some point a sound wave becomes random molecules with no more structure than before it occurred.
In keeping with the minimum concept there is a theoretical point at which some structured energy becomes random.
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blogfast25
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You're not wrong despite the use of weasel words.
But it has little to do with England's theory. In a nutshell he claims that in an energy-rich environment fast generation of Entropy (fast
self-replication) is favoured. This would make the arising of self-replicating matter from inanimate matter more likely than previously thought.
It's to be hoped that England won't be assassinated by a Creationist nutter or by Michael Savage, before he can finish the theory.  
[Edited on 22-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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I understand that, and I agree it is a very reasonable point of view. "Energy rich, and environment" are the key factors. Low energy in an infinite
environment sort of negate the concept but according to his theories / hypothesis low energy and,or infinite environment do not apply.
All the rest of the posts here (my bad) were just to get a grasp on the theoretical minimum concept.
One concept at a time. I'm a little slow to get some things but I am like a Pit Bull once I grab on.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | All the rest of the posts here (my bad) were just to get a grasp on the theoretical minimum concept.
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One way to understand that is to look at why absolute zero Kelvin can never be reached. Despite experimentalists' best efforts, we're now a few nano K
off that target (off the top of my head). But that little, little, little bit of residual heat can NEVER be removed.
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Zombie
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I assume that is because there can never be absolute empty space. Anything in that space would be some form of energy?
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | | I assume that is because there can never be absolute empty space. Anything in that space would be some form of energy? |
No. Empty space doesn't contain any particles. No particles, no motion. No motion, no heat.
The experiments I'm referring to use small amounts of atoms (typically 10,000 or so). Not empty space at all.
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aga
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If you're looking for a Proof for God's existence, find a way Humans have created that concentrates energy, counter-entropy.
Don't think we did that yet.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | If you're looking for a Proof for God's existence, find a way Humans have created that concentrates energy, counter-entropy.
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Huh?
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aga
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It'll be there somewhere.
The When is always a concern.
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Zombie
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Back to the drawing board...
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