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Author: Subject: Ayahuasca psychedelic tested for depression
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[*] posted on 16-4-2015 at 18:37


Is it known exactly which MAOI is in the P. Harmala or the Banisteriopsis Caapi? (MAOI-A or MAOI-B)



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[*] posted on 16-4-2015 at 20:16


The harmala alkaloids are the predominant components discussed in previous posts by Nicodem and me, mostly page 3.
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[*] posted on 16-4-2015 at 21:03


Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem  
Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
No, as I said, for a psychotropic, psychedelic effect you NEED an MAOI to inhibit MAO degradation of DMT prior to effect. It's the MAOI interaction that is problematic.

MAOI drugs do require specific restrictions in diet to prevent dangerously high blood pressure, potentially fatal serotonin syndrome, and interact with a large number of medications... even those one might not expect, including birth control.

The harmala alkaloids that are the crucial component of ayahuasca are competitive reversible and selective monoamineoxidase A inhibitors. The severe diet restrictions valid for irreversible and nonselective inhibitors used, or having been used as APIs, like the old phenelzine or tranylcypromine, or even the MAO-B selective selegilline, do not necessarily pertain to harmala alkaloids.



I knew it was covered but could not find it.

I'm trying to keep as much of this organized in my mind as I can.

Reviewing I can see where the entire topic can lead to difficulties, or worse even for an expert.

Discussing options such as modified DMT to avoid metabolism, isolating potential psychoactive / interactive compounds from secondary sources, doses, duration's, registered effect, ect. MAOI's , no MAOI's, smoked, oral, injected. Mice, rats, dogs, monkeys.
Fat people who drink, skinny people who eat rats, mice, and monkeys...

Yeah I think I am seeing the bigger picture here.
One thing for sure, Ignorance is truly bliss. One other sure thing, you really can't go backwards once you learn something.

This thread (to me) is like looking at baby pictures of yourself.
I'm gonna sleep on all this, and see what comes to me in the morning.

Wow!



[Edited on 4-17-2015 by Zombie]




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[*] posted on 16-4-2015 at 22:12


Important to my post on selegiline is that gregxy is using it sublingually, which is similar in many regards to transdermal administration. Oral use has a different pharmacokinetic profile. Additionally, diminished risk is not eliminated risk, to be clear.

Do note my response below the selection you quoted as well. I have citations urging caution and I cross compared some relevant binding affinities along with exposition on the importance in distinguishing between affinity/type of bonding vs. potency and toxicity with regard to harmala alkaloids from a pharmacological/toxicological perspective. The post above my exposition on hepatoxicity risk indicators.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 11:01


The bioavailbility of selegiline is 5X greater sublingually. The prescription form is Zelpar, for treatment of Parkinson's. For depression there is the Ensam patch. Up to 5mg/day should be safe (without the cheese effect). Still, I don't take things like pseudaphed with which it interacts. It can also give a false positive on a drug test for methamphetamine. It takes up to a month after you stop taking it for the MAO to regenerate. Likewise it takes a couple weeks to take full effect.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 14:18


Not sure where you get your numbers. Would like to see because what I have reported seen generally corresponds to "In summary, by reducing the opportunity for first-pass metabolism, the absorption of selegiline from Zydis Selegiline was more efficient and less variable than from conventional selegiline tablets. Compared with conventional selegiline tablets 10 mg, Zydis Selegiline 1.25 mg yielded similar plasma concentrations of selegiline and degree of MAO-B inhibition, but markedly reduced concentrations of the principal metabolites. Thus, the lower but equally MAO-B inhibitory dose of selegiline in Zydis Selegiline 1.25 mg, which is associated with lower concentrations of potentially harmful metabolites[.]" PMID 14628189
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 14:52


Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
The bioavailbility of selegiline is 5X greater sublingually. The prescription form is Zelpar, for treatment of Parkinson's. For depression there is the Ensam patch. Up to 5mg/day should be safe (without the cheese effect). Still, I don't take things like pseudaphed with which it interacts. It can also give a false positive on a drug test for methamphetamine. It takes up to a month after you stop taking it for the MAO to regenerate. Likewise it takes a couple weeks to take full effect.




Mr. Chemo... Your post above (regarding brands, and doseages) is important information. Good stuff to know.

You also questioned Mr Gregxy's numbers...
I have a question that I can easily look up but I prefer to see it here for everyone. Besides potential serotonin build up (toxic?) what other need is there in the body for MAO(s)?

Let's assume long term use of MAOI. In an otherwise healthy individual what harm can or will be done?
I am asking from the perspective of a long term, low dose DMT "patient". (assuming it was a viable course of treatment)

I used assume a few times... That can't be good. :)




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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 15:15


The 5:1 number comes from here:

http://www.zelapar.com/more-about-drug-delivery/pk-charts-of...

They do recommend a max of 2.5mg/ day to maintain MAO-B selectivity (for Parkenson's). 3X/week I just chew up a regular 5mg pill and keep it in my mouth. (tastes awful) I don't know if there is something else in Zelapar to enhance adsorption.

This site http://www.drugs.com/pro/selegiline.html says the max oral dose to avoid dietary restrictions (the cheese effect) is 10mg/day.

So for depression, to inhibit both MAO-B and some MAO-A, 5mg/day seems like a good dose.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 16:17


Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
The 5:1 number comes from here:

http://www.zelapar.com/more-about-drug-delivery/pk-charts-of...


Thanks! Hmm, interesting. I'm wondering if their reference in the footnote has indications on the pharmaceutics of their formulation.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 16:52


Note that MAOI's differ not only by their selectivity towards one or another specific enzyme(or by their non-selectivity.) They will also differ in their site selectivity. Selegine, for example, was developed as an MAOI that selectively inhibited MAO-B in the brain with the goal of minimizing any enzyme inhibition in the liver/other areas. This is the reason why user's are often excluded from the dietry restrictions generally applicable to prescribed MAOI's.

A few of the statements I've seen in this thread lead me to believe this isn't common knowledge to people in the discussion. It's actually pretty interesting to go through the older studies and see the progression of research in that area. For example, I noticed a trend in that many of the compounds developed for medical treatment via the MAOI mechanism will often be metabolized to another biologically active compound(or a close analogue of one), which is unrelated in terms of mechanism of action. These metabolites tend not to accumulate in any significant amount. Not enough to have a detectable psychoactive effect in most cases anyways.


I had a fleeting idea of looking into possible novel prodrugs of DMT that were sufficiently resistant to metabolism not to be affected by first pass metabolism in the liver, but not so much so that it will result in a significant amount of DMT being released by the time it gets to the brain.
I even saw a similar alternative in a patent, whereby they created a co-crystal containing both the target drug, and some unrelated compound. Supposedly the co-crystallized compounds take a significant amount of time to separate AFTER dissolution, allowing some degree of targetted drug delivery. I'm still kinda confused on the "how" as my understanding is that they exist as separate ionic species the entire time, dissolution should result in instant separation I thought.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 18:42


Quote: Originally posted by Mesa  
Note that MAOI's differ not only by their selectivity towards one or another specific enzyme(or by their non-selectivity.) They will also differ in their site selectivity. Selegine, for example, was developed as an MAOI that selectively inhibited MAO-B in the brain with the goal of minimizing any enzyme inhibition in the liver/other areas. This is the reason why user's are often excluded from the dietry restrictions generally applicable to prescribed MAOI's.

This is an excellent point, but I don't think allosteric binding is in effect here at normal compartment concentrations if at all. Because the harmala alkoids are described as competitive, this strongly suggests occupying the canonical binding site, and when looking at selegiline, without calculating Tanimoto coefficients, it look extremely similar to phenelzine, just with steric differences likely to account for MAO-A antitargeting.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 19:30


Yeah, I only started looking into this area when I learned one of the major alkaloids in kava is a selective MAOB inhibitor. I'm Fijian and have drunk kava regularly as a recreational/traditional type of thing since I was a kid without ever thinking about how it works.

An interesting thing here is that there was never any form of ayahuasca developed by the native tribes of Fiji or neighboring pacific islands despite being home to the plant species containing the largest reported concentration of DMT(Acacia Simplex, 2-3% of the dry weight of some sections contains alkaloids, mainly DMT.)

The plants themselves are very common, I figure once kava was discovered by the natives, it was too much effort to try to mix it with anything else :P.
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[*] posted on 17-4-2015 at 21:30


Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
The 5:1 number comes from here:

http://www.zelapar.com/more-about-drug-delivery/pk-charts-of...

They do recommend a max of 2.5mg/ day to maintain MAO-B selectivity (for Parkenson's). 3X/week I just chew up a regular 5mg pill and keep it in my mouth. (tastes awful) I don't know if there is something else in Zelapar to enhance adsorption.

This site http://www.drugs.com/pro/selegiline.html says the max oral dose to avoid dietary restrictions (the cheese effect) is 10mg/day.

So for depression, to inhibit both MAO-B and some MAO-A, 5mg/day seems like a good dose.



I went out drinking tonight so I may misinterpret what you said.

If I can ask, and if you feel it appropriate to answer... Exactly where did you get the information that an MAOI coud / will help you?

I'm not being a smart ass... Trust me.

I have never tried DMT. Sort of want to but ...cool.

I have a history of crazy fucks in my family. I posted this.
The history of mental disease goes back for more generations than I really know.

To lay it bare my family name is McLaughlin. As far as I know we are the FIRST recorded name in history. 2454 bc is the furthest back we know of.

Look it up if you like because this thread is not about us.

My mothers family name is McKinnon. They are the crazy f@ckers. Every woman on my mothers side as far back as I can trace (1642) has died of "mental disease".

If you think I am joking or full of crap...; Guess why I am posting,

I thought long, and hard last night about this entire thread,
Life sort of sucks for a fella that has Kings on one side, and lunatics on the other.
From the age of FIVE I knew I was "different".
No problem... Deal with it. After 51 years of dealing with it I am nothing but TIRED!

So... As I posted, I have tried every friging drug I could find. None of them solved the problem. NONE!

That is why I believe I have an addictive gene yet I never became addicted to anything. I have the mind set to avoid addiction.

Sooooo again, I am focusing the last remaining years I have to solving the problem(s) that I, and many others share.

Granted I may not be able to help anyone else but I intend to try.
That is the SOLE REASON I am posting on the open net.

I'm not here to fool anyone, and ask for formulas. I could care less about producing worthless drugs BUT if something triggers a real response in my mind I WILL ask more.

I (like I said) believe that DMT has a commonality in all things that create it. I have to believe that there is a common thread between all living things or else I would be as F'd up as the rest of the family I came from.

I said it before... DMT "MIGHT" be the radio that links us all. The "trip part is the exaggeration of this. Without the trip I PRAY it is the compound that allows us to be us.

Yeah... I have been at Fathoms tonight but all that did was allow me to be more up front about why I am interested in this topic.

I won't go back, and edit because this is me.

Just for fun... I'd like you to meet my Buddy Jonny...

The kid is cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN_K2Raznzo


Ok I had to edit...
That kid is not into any sort of drug culture (Mulbray) BUT he is very much into spiritual energy. He has a map of the original pyramid alignments. the Masons temples, the Aztec temples, and some of the crazy peoples temples... Guess what... They all align. Magnetic lines converge.

I'll let you all figure out if either of us are worth a damn.
Please watch the videos if you want to form an opinion...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI59Pe4Fv5w

[Edited on 4-18-2015 by Zombie]




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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 08:56


I can vouch for this. It helped my depression quite a bit. Its like years of psychotherapy packed into a few hours. They were some of the roughest experiences of my life though, you need to be ready to face your inner demons head on. Some temporary suffering is a small price to pay. I went into it with the primary intention of becoming a better person and thats what I got.

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Is it known exactly which MAOI is in the P. Harmala or the Banisteriopsis Caapi? (MAOI-A or MAOI-B)


Harmine, harmaline, and tetrahydroharmine are 3 alkaloids that I know of, they all bind to MAOI-A (hence why p. viridis and b. caapi stop DMT from being metabolised, MAOI-B inhibitors don't do that). Harmaline is the most potent one (at least it has the most potent reported psychedelic effects when taken alone).

[Edited on 19-4-2015 by CrimpJiggler]
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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 09:22


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
That kid is not into any sort of drug culture (Mulbray) BUT he is very much into spiritual energy. He has a map of the original pyramid alignments. the Masons temples, the Aztec temples, and some of the crazy peoples temples... Guess what... They all align. Magnetic lines converge.



Align in what way?




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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 09:50


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
That kid is not into any sort of drug culture (Mulbray) BUT he is very much into spiritual energy. He has a map of the original pyramid alignments. the Masons temples, the Aztec temples, and some of the crazy peoples temples... Guess what... They all align. Magnetic lines converge.



Align in what way?


A really long one. If you go around the earth enough times it'll eventually figure itself out.
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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 10:01


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
To lay it bare my family name is McLaughlin. As far as I know we are the FIRST recorded name in history. 2454 bc is the furthest back we know of.

Look it up if you like because this thread is not about us.



2454 BC??? That's Bronze Age! AFAIK, the practice and recording of surnames started WAY, WAY much later than that. More like 10th century or so...

I mean, you do know that Fred Flintstone was just called Fred, right? Fraudulent archaeologists later added Flintsone because it sounded so good! ;)

[Edited on 19-4-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 11:31


Yes Fred was our g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,gg,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,gg,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,g,great grand uncle.
Wilma was actually his second wife.

I have researched our family. Just a quick link. It flows back much further than this...
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/McLaughlin

Quote:
"Recorded in many forms including MacLaughlin, MacLoughlin, McLaughlin and McLauchlin, this is an ancient Irish surname. It derives from a pre 10th century Old Gaelic name borne by two entirely distinct clans. The first was originally called the O' Maoilsheachlann' and in the 17th century assumed the name MacLoughun. The territory of this sept lay in the central plains of Ireland, especially in County Meath. The prefix O' indicates male descendant of, whilst "maol", describes a "tonsured one", a follower of a religious order. The original nameholder or chief was called Maoilsheachlann and he was better known as Malachy 11nd, the High King of Ireland from 980 a.d. to 1002. The second sept belonged to Innishowen in County Donegal. Here the name meant the "son of Lochlann", the latter being a Norse-Viking pre 7th century compound of the elements "loch", meaning a lake or fjord, plus "lann", land. The great leading men of this sept are frequently referred to in "The Annals of the Four Masters".

Edit:
We come from the second sept. The Norsemen recorded their blood lines very well.


As for the magnetic convergence thing. I don't know much about it but apparently there are areas on the planet that are reported as ":high energy" centers. Something about the pyramids, certain capitols. Something called "Ley Lines"

http://holeinthedonut.com/2009/05/26/coral-castle-energy-med...

One of these centers is right here in Florida. I have been there, and I can tell you that you do know something is there. For days afterwards I could almost feel what people were thinking.

There are maps that show these lines. If you want to take this a step further... One of the axisis or convergence points is in a direct line to that "face" looking formation on Mars.

I know, Open door for Blogfast... I believe in spirituality, and I believe that people have interactions on many different planes than most of us realize. What if anything is involved in these lay line things I do not know.

Coral castle does have some "thing" that happens there. A walk thro tour won't allow much in the realization of this but 24 hours in the pinnacle room there... It changes.

Mr. Blog... If you wish to research my family further you will find the same as I did.
Lay lines??? I don't know what you will find because I never looked.


CrimpJiggler,
I appreciate your input. Demons don't scare me. Inner or outer. I have dealt with them for decades.
In fact we play Golf on Tuesdays, and Sundays.

I have come to realize that dealing with, and letting things go are not the same.
I sort of get that my personal issues are not really a chemical imbalance so medications are really worthless at best, and harmful at worst.

I'm leaning toward opening new doors toward a more "spiritual" understanding of time, space, humanity.
Knowing religious methodology is not what I mean either. awakening some of the "sleeping" parts of the brain is.

Perhaps one day I will "trip out" but I'd much prefer to know exactly what, and why things are before I tamper with "imperfection".



[Edited on 4-19-2015 by Zombie]




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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 12:10


calea zacatechichi is an herb that is a very,very mild sedative but tastes like a burnt goodyear rubber tire.taking calea just before bedtime will cause the most crazy dreams but so will jalapenos sometimes.on calea i dreamt of walking with a sky blue eyed girl and way after i awoke i remembered the dream.when i remembered the dream, i closed my eyes and saw her bright deep blue eyes imprinted inside my eye lids about three times repeatedly.the dream was a little on the nightmare side in which i was being accused of vandalizing.i think calea is an irritant of sorts and creates wild dreams but it is just like a valium pill in strength.no hallucinations while awake with calea and is very relaxing but the taste is unbearable.i think the aztecs pulled all their carvings and paintings from crazy dreams.because of dmt visuals i always feel like i am the one who breeched some space where color and strange beings live and not THEY who came into my world.that's as spiritual as i get.
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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 12:49


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  

I have researched our family. Just a quick link. It flows back much further than this...
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/McLaughlin

Quote:
"Recorded in many forms including MacLaughlin, MacLoughlin, McLaughlin and McLauchlin, this is an ancient Irish surname. It derives from a pre 10th century Old Gaelic name borne by two entirely distinct clans. The first was originally called the O' Maoilsheachlann' and in the 17th century assumed the name MacLoughun. The territory of this sept lay in the central plains of Ireland, especially in County Meath. The prefix O' indicates male descendant of, whilst "maol", describes a "tonsured one", a follower of a religious order. The original nameholder or chief was called Maoilsheachlann and he was better known as Malachy 11nd, the High King of Ireland from 980 a.d. to 1002. The second sept belonged to Innishowen in County Donegal. Here the name meant the "son of Lochlann", the latter being a Norse-Viking pre 7th century compound of the elements "loch", meaning a lake or fjord, plus "lann", land. The great leading men of this sept are frequently referred to in "The Annals of the Four Masters".


For the most part I don't trust genealogy sites as far as I could throw'em. Here that site may be roughly right but "pre 10th century Old Gaelic " doesn't equate to 2,500 BC.

The oldest Gaelic inscriptions (NOT manuscripts) date back to about the 4th century and recorded Scottish history starts about the Roman period. That leaves a gap of about 3,000 years! Additionally, one then would have to assume that Gaelic hadn't evolved much over that period (ever tried to read William Shakespeare - died 1616 - in the language he wrote in?)

Even the 'Norsemen' only go back to about 500 - 1000 AD.

As regards 'holeinthedonut.com', I think you're pulling my leg but in any case I much prefer astral gateways! :D

Whatever makes you happy, I guess (now where did I file that cross-eyed emoticon???)


[Edited on 19-4-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 14:04


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
CrimpJiggler,
I appreciate your input. Demons don't scare me. Inner or outer. I have dealt with them for decades.
In fact we play Golf on Tuesdays, and Sundays.

I have come to realize that dealing with, and letting things go are not the same.
I sort of get that my personal issues are not really a chemical imbalance so medications are really worthless at best, and harmful at worst.

I'm leaning toward opening new doors toward a more "spiritual" understanding of time, space, humanity.
Knowing religious methodology is not what I mean either. awakening some of the "sleeping" parts of the brain is.

Perhaps one day I will "trip out" but I'd much prefer to know exactly what, and why things are before I tamper with "imperfection".



[Edited on 4-19-2015 by Zombie]


I should mention that I did ayahuasca not too long after I quit dexedrine which I'd been on for 6 years. The low dopamine levels were a big part of what made my experiences so rough, the serotonergic activity of the ayahuasca without dopamine activity balancing it out caused extreme bodily discomfort. This happened me with all serotonergic psychedelics during that time period. Most people don't have that issue. You're right, letting go is a whole other skill. I'm still learning that one myself. Another powerful entheogen which I've been blessed with discovering is iboga. Treating depression with ayahuasca is a gradual process that doesn't happen overnight. With iboga on the other hand, its very possible that it might cure ones depression in a single ceremony.

For opening doors to a new spiritual understanding of time, space and consciousness, salvia is another powerful one. Like ayahuasca and iboga, its really in a category of its own. Strangely enough its mechanism of action is kappa opioid agonism. Its a good one for seeing first hand the subjectivity of time. You can be gone for what seems like days, but only minutes pass on the clock. You see mechanisms of reality that have been right under your nose the whole time, but you never cared to look because your logic tells you that theres nothing there. It breaks your consciousness out of your ordinary system of logic so you can directly see whats beyond it. I saw through the illusion of separation first hand during a salvia trip. What happened was I got stuck in the second dimension for what seemed like days, I had no memory of where I had come from so for all I knew I had always been in that limited 2D reality. The only way out was to realise that I was not actually separate from my external environment, we were in fact one in the same and with that realisation, I found myself back transitioning back to the 3D world. I realised that this principle applies to the 3D world and during that transition period I experienced this state of oneness that spiritual people describe. It was the funniest thing I'd seen in my life because it implied that the bulk of my psychological suffering was the product of an illusion. I remember having a list of things that I would try in order to transcend that 2D world and the one that worked was the very last thing I tried because it was the one I least expected to work, since I had the preconception that I was separate from my external environment. I don't think it was coincidence that the trip ended at the exact moment I discovered the key to transcending that 2D world.

Before jumping into an ayahuasca ceremony, one can familiarise themselves with the effects of B. caapi by making tea with it. Due to its harmala alkaloid content, it has its own psychedelic effects.

Also, if you haven't yet started, I recommend exploring lucid dreams. The things one can learn by observing the dream state (especially the transition state where one goes from being "non lucid" to lucid) is phenomenal. While practicing techniques to attain lucidity, it might be beneficial to take a mild acetylcholinesterase inhibitor like galantamine.

[Edited on 19-4-2015 by CrimpJiggler]
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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 14:32


Quote: Originally posted by cyanureeves  
i think the aztecs pulled all their carvings and paintings from crazy dreams.because of dmt visuals i always feel like i am the one who breeched some space where color and strange beings live and not THEY who came into my world.that's as spiritual as i get.


Thats exactly what I think. I experimented with the combination of zolpidem and 5-MeO tryptamines and I kept getting these direct (as opposed to peripheral) visuals in which everything I started at morphed continuously at distinct time intervals into patterns that looked exactly like Mayan or Aztec artwork. Everything looked absolutely mindblowing but it seemed very familiar, like I'd seen it all before. These alpha subunit selective BZ agonists combined with sleep deprivation causes very interesting effects, its almost like one begins to dream while still awake. Adding tryptamines to that makes everything Aztec/Mayan like. My theory is that these ancient cultures were naturally in psychedelic states, its only our dumbed down modern societies that don't perceive these spiritual aspects of reality. Australian aboriginals have this thing called "dreamtime", its like they can literally dream while they are still awake. I wish society would end their absurd demonisation/fear of consciousness alteration and realise that the ability to explore ones consciousness through neurochemical alteration is as important as meditation, lucid dreaming or any other spiritual practice known to man. Western society is only recently become reacquainted with spirituality, its just a matter of time before the masses accept entheogens for what they are. Similarly, everyone will realise that theres a lot more to dreams than the current concensus would have us believe. A lot of people think alchemy is just the primitive beginnings of chemistry, but in reality I think chemistry will become a whole lot more alchemy like when the reconciliation of science and spirituality happens. Spirituality is right brain science, contemporary science is the domain of the left hemisphere. Alchemy is actually a stegonographic representation of spiritual phenomena which often seem to have a physical counterpart. Or more accurately, for every physical phenomenon, there is an underlying spiritual dimension (like how every particle has an underlying wave). I believe transmuting lead into gold is also a metaphor for the illumination of the mind which occurs when the two hemispheres of the brain are reconciled. I can't really explain how I gained this understanding, it came to me on entheogens. It comes from "sleeping" areas of the brain.

[Edited on 19-4-2015 by CrimpJiggler]
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Chemosynthesis
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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 15:32


Quote: Originally posted by CrimpJiggler  
]Harmaline is the most potent one (at least it has the most potent reported psychedelic effects when taken alone).
Source? This is disputed by the literature according to McKenna et all. (see my posts on page 3) as debunked.

[Edited on 20-4-2015 by Chemosynthesis]
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Zombie
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[*] posted on 19-4-2015 at 19:22


There is a lot of first hand (experience) info there Crimp.

It still begs the question, how much is influenced by suggestion, and how much is actually created repeatedly in the mind (removing influence / suggestion factors).

Really my entire curiosity in these compounds revolves wholly around the research into the mind, and body. I find it hard to believe that the most important thing that should be known is one of the least understood mechanisms.
I liken humans to machines in my concept of them. It's so very easy to diagnose a machine. Logic tells you where the flaw is, and you correct it.

I think I just answered my own question(s). Look at the level of machine(s) we understand... internal combustion, hydraulic pumps, pistons, vanes, basic electronic switching... I finally got it.
There is another thread here about the evolution of science... The evolution goal is to create life. If we could build a human we would have already learned how to fix what's wrong with the existing ones.
In all fairness I now believe we are still in pre-school playing with blocks, and producing random "cool" shapes.

I might be a few centuries ahead in my "wish list".

[Edited on 4-20-2015 by Zombie]




They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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CrimpJiggler
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[*] posted on 20-4-2015 at 06:31


Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis  
Quote: Originally posted by CrimpJiggler  
]Harmaline is the most potent one (at least it has the most potent reported psychedelic effects when taken alone).
Source? This is disputed by the literature according to McKenna et all. (see my posts on page 3) as debunked.

[Edited on 20-4-2015 by Chemosynthesis]


Well according to the studies mentioned here: https://books.google.ie/books?id=FUM-AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA129&a...

Harmine with an IC50 of of 0.013 microM is a slightly more potent MAOI than harmaline (0.016) and both of them being more potent than THH, but a few anecdotal reports here:
https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68849
seem to suggest that harmaline has more potent effects when taken alone than harmine. Maybe this is due to different mechanisms of action though, i.e. maybe harmaline has stronger SSRI effects than harmine.

Something I find interesting is how ingesting these beta carbolines by themselves induces psychedelic effects. If it was just a matter of an SSRI in combination with an MAO-A inhibitor then you'd think that say moclebimide + sertraline (in sufficiently low dose to avoid serotonin syndrome) would induce psychedelic effects but thats not the case AFAIK.
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