| Pages:
1
2 |
careysub
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 4-8-2014
Location: Coastal Sage Scrub Biome
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lowest quantum state
|
|
"20 Year Old Rum in 6 Days?!"
http://www.wired.com/2015/04/lost-spirits/
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1347
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
So, why not reflux with food grade molecular sieves? Doesn't the ester exist in equilibrium?
[Edited on 8-4-2015 by Loptr]
[Edited on 8-4-2015 by Loptr]
|
|
|
Amos
International Hazard
Posts: 1406
Registered: 25-3-2014
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
Mood: No
|
|
Awesome, thanks for sharing. I may have to start drinking when I'm older just because the chemistry and production are so alluring.
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1347
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
I don't drink because I go from sober to way too drunk in half a second.
There is no middle ground nice buzz for me.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Loptr  | I don't drink because I go from sober to way too drunk in half a second.
There is no middle ground nice buzz for me. |
That's because you don't drink enough to build up your tolerance.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Chemosynthesis
International Hazard
Posts: 1071
Registered: 26-9-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Fascinating article.
Or a common SNP at the gene encoding his
alcohol dehydrogenase, which would also serve to limit tolerance. He didn't mention aversion, so I am assuming an aldehyde dehydrogenase SNP is
unlikely.
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1347
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
I have had my fair share of a ruined next day, and even a couple times, a ruined day after that. Alcoholism also runs in my family.
No, thank you, but I will pass! 
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1347
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis | Fascinating article.
Or a common SNP at the gene encoding his
alcohol dehydrogenase, which would also serve to limit tolerance. He didn't mention aversion, so I am assuming an aldehyde dehydrogenase SNP is
unlikely. |
What do you mean by aversion? I absolutely hate alcohol. Even when I drank, I hated it. It ruins the taste of anything else you are eating.
Is that aversion enough?
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Loptr | I have had my fair share of a ruined next day, and even a couple times, a ruined day after that. Alcoholism also runs in my family.
No, thank you, but I will pass! |
In that case, good idea.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Chemosynthesis
International Hazard
Posts: 1071
Registered: 26-9-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Loptr |
What do you mean by aversion? I absolutely hate alcohol. Even when I drank, I hated it. It ruins the taste of anything else you are eating.
Is that aversion enough? |
In the sense I mean, aversion is associated with increased acetaldehyde buildup due to metabolic pathway bottlenecking. This increases side effects
from acetaldehyde, which is considered a primary cause of flushing, nausea, hangovers, etc. in acetaldehyde poisoning.
You are describing taste aversion, which is a type of aversion. This can be due to GPCR taste receptors and just simply not liking a substance, or it
can be conditioned taste aversion, where you felt sick from excess consumption and psychologically associated the taste of alcohol with the negative
effects. This is why you run into people who "can't drink tequila/bourbon/whatever anymore." For some reason, I have usually found it to be reported
as tequila in my anecdotal experiences.
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1347
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis | | Quote: Originally posted by Loptr |
What do you mean by aversion? I absolutely hate alcohol. Even when I drank, I hated it. It ruins the taste of anything else you are eating.
Is that aversion enough? |
In the sense I mean, aversion is associated with increased acetaldehyde buildup due to metabolic pathway bottlenecking. This increases side effects
from acetaldehyde, which is considered a primary cause of flushing, nausea, hangovers, etc. in acetaldehyde poisoning.
You are describing taste aversion, which is a type of aversion. This can be due to GPCR taste receptors and just simply not liking a substance, or it
can be conditioned taste aversion, where you felt sick from excess consumption and psychologically associated the taste of alcohol with the negative
effects. This is why you run into people who "can't drink tequila/bourbon/whatever anymore." For some reason, I have usually found it to be reported
as tequila in my anecdotal experiences. |
I understand what you saying. I have heard the tequila anecdotes as well.
Also, another thing I didn't mention is that I get a headache every time I drink, which is where I think my primary aversion to alcohol comes from. I
tried smoking when I was a teenager and I would also get a headache.
I neither smoke nor drink anymore, and haven't done so in a long time.
|
|
|
Chemosynthesis
International Hazard
Posts: 1071
Registered: 26-9-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Interesting. Not sure what to make of that.
I think, based solely on my reading, that the rate limiting step is the production of reagents from the wood barrels and the like. Increasing the
kinetics of esterification would be helpful, but contingent upon this.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'm with Loptr on smoking and drinking, however i do both.
Neither is good or beneficial, in fact they work together to be seriously bad.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
This article, and process are nothing new in distilling.
What is new is the use of the word "science" in his explanation. Using charred sawdust expedites the aging process simply due to increased surface
area.
Adding charred chunks of barrel staves in the vapor path during distillation also expedites the aging process.
To a trained connoisseur of aged liquors the difference is obvious. There is one process that time delivers that can not be replicated. The release of
the more volatile acetone, and related lighter compounds such as Methyl isobutyl ketone.
These compounds release thru the wood in a process known as "The Angels Share".
You can add whatever you want to hootch but only time removes these "nasties" in a manner that can not be replicated in a "lab" setting.
It is a balancing act between the addition of esters from the barrel, and the evaporation of volatile compounds that can be , and actually are judged
as part of what makes a beautiful liquor.
There are dozens of methods to speed the aging process. Everything from heat / cold cycles, Ultra sound, to microwave bombardment.
Only time can do what time does for liquor.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Zombie:
Whether this particular technology can deliver it or not I really don't know but the chemical profile of something potentially as complex as
whisky can be chemically engineered. It's really only a mixture, after all. Whether it's worth doing is another matter but drinkers will be interested
in a good 'simulation', if the price is right.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Yes sir. You are correct. You can replicate levels or "flavor profiles" in a lab.
You can also feed a duck to a goose.
Me personally... I like old fashioned barrel aged Scotch. It's rather difficult to reflect on the craftsmanship imparted, while sipping a dram in
front of a roaring fire when beakers, and hairnets are in the image.
Just sayin'
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
szuko03
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 3-4-2015
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
When I was in college I would drink whatever whenever. Now the only way I use alcohol is as a solvent. However I feel CO is heading in the right
direction
Chemistry is a natural drive, not an interest.
|
|
|
Morkva
Harmless
Posts: 17
Registered: 6-11-2014
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The article indicates esterification is the principle of his invention.
https://books.google.com/books?id=qOjQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA274
http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/falcarinol.html
“Science is the ultimate pornography, analytic activity whose main aim is to isolate objects or events from their contexts in time and space. This
obsession with the specific activity of quantified functions is what science shares with pornography.”
- J.G. Ballard, The Atrocity Exhibition
|
|
|
Chemosynthesis
International Hazard
Posts: 1071
Registered: 26-9-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The article also quotes a process called “oak catalyzed esterification,” yet refers to extracting volatiles from the wood, which isn't catalysis
as described, so I'm a little dubious about the esterification itself being the rate limiting step, though the esterification is the overall chemical
reaction.
|
|
|
Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1347
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
Who the heck cares when you have a claim such as this!
I would say it's more of a marketing ploy.
|
|
|
Chemosynthesis
International Hazard
Posts: 1071
Registered: 26-9-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
^Pretty much what I am thinking. They did seem to dance completely around the removal of the lighter chain fusel oils Zombie mentioned. There could be
potentially by a chromatographic separation of some kind, but showing their spectra (what kind of MS?) would have been nice. Not like anyone is going
to copy your manufacturing process from your spectra.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Chemosynthesis | | There could be potentially by a chromatographic separation of some kind, but showing their spectra (what kind of MS?) would have been nice. Not like
anyone is going to copy your manufacturing process from your spectra. |
MS spectra on, erm... wired.com? It's not that kind of publication, lets say.
| Quote: | | But that’s really all that Davis can say publicly about the process until his patents are finalized. |
It could all be good old hype of course but maybe the patents will throw some light on their technology.
|
|
|
Chemosynthesis
International Hazard
Posts: 1071
Registered: 26-9-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
They don't have to
publish it in the actual article itself, but a nice link to it on Lost Spirits' site would have been helpful since the Wired article mentioned its
existence. I'm a stickler for my technical writing, but I try pretty hard as a general rule to have citations or extraneous "supplemental" data for
anyone interested. I've been a tad slack on some of my postings here, but I try to cite things for the curious too, even though it's 'only a forum.'
The spectra does exist in their whitepaper. I haven't gone through it all yet, but I did take the extremely minor annoyance of finding it rather than
having an author provide it for me. http://www.lostspirits.net/#!science-/c1kb3
| Quote: |
It could all be good old hype of course but maybe the patents will throw some light on their technology. |
His patents are pending, so he can say more than is implied in the article, and it may actually be in his favor to do so to establish IP in public
domain if he ever had to litigate. Probably part of why the white paper is published on his site. It does also indicate the esterification is more
rapid than the extraction, as I expected, for anyone interested.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Good find, CS. Will definitely have a look at that later, ta. Nice mood music, let no one dispute they're not trying to get a bit of a narrative going
there.
[Edited on 10-4-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Dr.Bob
International Hazard
Posts: 2660
Registered: 26-1-2011
Location: USA - NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The problem with patents is that you only have to give enough data to replicate the concept, not to do it well. In theory, you must state the "best"
method, but most people/companies purposefully avoid doing what they think is the best method until after they file the initial patent, such that the
details are not very helpful. Then most places will either add more data at the last second, or file a new, improved patent once the first one
publishes. So trying to use a patent to find the ideal way to enable a method will sometimes work, but often the patent is obsolete before it ever
publishes. Many patents don't have anywhere near as much data as even J,. Med Chem or JOC requires. And often there are very vague instructions,
and very poor yields. The best patents are the process ones from companies once they have an issued patent, approved drug, or little competition, as
then they are more likely to try to protect the best process.
And many companies have used chemistry to try to make good beverages, some are better than others. Two buck (now $3-5) Chuck is not bad (the Merlot
at least) for a cheap wine, as they mix multiple wines to get the optimal end mix of various acids, flavors, etc. They may even adulterate it with
certain flavors and concentrates to make it more balanced or taste better. But it won't likely taste as good as a great Merlot from a good vineyard
that costs $100 a bottle. Just depends on your taste to cash ratio. Mine is not so high.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
