SupFanat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 86
Registered: 26-4-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How to utilize hydrogen from electrolysis cell?
I have some theoretical interest for renewable energy.
An experiment could use any such energy source for electrolysis of water. The problem is extremely low density of produced hydrogen gas. I'd prefer to
use it for some hydrogenation reaction. Is there any such reaction which can be easily catalyzed in aqueous solution? Hydrogenation of carbon dioxide
to methane isn't ideal solution even if it works because methane is still gas (takes however only one-forth of original volume of hydrogen).
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
UTFSE.
Unsurprisingly the electrolysis of water to make O2 and H2 has already been extensively researched.
Try Google for example.
www.google.com
[Edited on 23-5-2015 by aga]
The source of your Hydrogen makes absolutely no difference to how you use it.
It's still Hydrogen, and never Magic Organic Certified Hydrogen.
[Edited on 23-5-2015 by aga]
|
|
|
SupFanat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 86
Registered: 26-4-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Is there any easy way to convert hydrogen to something useful with more density? Easy for beginner.
Hydrogen can be used to make some metals from oxides, for example iron from iron oxides. But such process needs some hydrogen storage which I'm not
going to build anytime soon.
(The energy demand for this reaction to proceed can be fulfilled by burning of hydrogen. A part of hydrogen reacts with iron oxides, another part
reacts with oxygen.)
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat  |
(The energy demand for this reaction to proceed can be fulfilled by burning of hydrogen. A part of hydrogen reacts with iron oxides, another part
reacts with oxygen.) |
This is chemnonsense. Some metal oxide reductions with hydrogen are Exothermic, some aren't.
aga is right: hydrogen is hydrogen is hydrogen. Even 'heavy' hydrogen (D<sub>2</sub> has basically the same chem properties as H<sub>2</sub>.
[Edited on 23-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
SupFanat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 86
Registered: 26-4-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The reaction of iron oxides with hydrogen is slightly endothermic if water vapor is produced (but slightly exothermic if liquid water is produced).
This endothermic reaction (if iron oxides are reduced by hydrogen) can be powered by partial burning of hydrogen.
That is what I know,
|
|
|
WGTR
National Hazard
Posts: 971
Registered: 29-9-2013
Location: Online
Member Is Offline
Mood: Outline
|
|
Currently I'm under a sturdy table, in an interior room, waiting for the tornado weather to pass, while trying to iPhone type with my big thumbs.
Sorry.
One way to store hydrogen is to convert it to ammonia. To store it directly, perhaps look into zeolite/molecular sieve storage. With the right pore
size, more gas could be stored for a given pressure.
|
|
|
Molecular Manipulations
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 17-12-2014
Location: The Garden of Eden
Member Is Offline
Mood: High on forbidden fruit
|
|
Electrolysis of water wont save energy, it'll waste it. Everytime. Period.
Third law of thermodynamics anyone?
WGTR yeah, I'll just run it through my backyard Habor-Bosch plant.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat | The reaction of iron oxides with hydrogen is slightly endothermic if water vapor is produced (but slightly exothermic if liquid water is produced).
|
Nope. You don't understand how Reaction Enthalpy works. I can find examples where even with water vapour the reaction is Exothermic. The only
difference between steam and water is the Heat of Vaporisation, not very large anyway.
Just find some metal oxides with really low Enthalpies of Formation. Ag<sub>2</sub>O springs to mind. There are others.
[Edited on 24-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations | Electrolysis of water wont save energy, it'll waste it. Everytime. Period.
Third law of thermodynamics anyone?
WGTR yeah, I'll just run it through my backyard Habor-Bosch plant. |
Exactomundo. Hence all these 'HOH fuel saving devices' being useless scams.
|
|
|
Sulaiman
International Hazard
Posts: 3558
Registered: 8-2-2015
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Member Is Offline
|
|
I agree that some small scale useful way of utilising small scattered sources of 'clean' power is required,
I doubt that electrolysis is the answer due to equipment and storage requirements, and potential explosions etc.
plus you shpuld also utilise the other half of the energy that went into splitting the water, the oxygen.
Pure oxygen to compete with oxygen from liquefied air for example,
or just to enable the easier combustion of renewable hydrocarbons etc.
Something low level such as electrolytic refining in remote areas?
Water pumping and purification?
Pure H2 and O2 seems more like a farm for a rocket launching facility !
[Edited on 24-5-2015 by Sulaiman]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Energetically the problem is that the energy you expend to carry out the electrolysis is never the same as the energy you get back by recombining the
H2 and O2. The former process is by definition not 100 % energy efficient, so energy is effectively lost. Driving the motors directly with current is
thus more energy efficient.
With electrolysis there are ALWAYS Ohmic losses.
Hydrogen fuelled motors have their uses, of course, but not in the field of energy conservation.
[Edited on 24-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
WGTR
National Hazard
Posts: 971
Registered: 29-9-2013
Location: Online
Member Is Offline
Mood: Outline
|
|
I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that the OP wants to break thermodynamic laws, but perhaps I'm missing an earlier thread/post.
The idea of a liquid hydrocarbon's total synthesis from basic things like H2, C, CO2, etc., was a personal obsession for a
couple of years. It was, in fact, what initially got me interested in chemistry. The idea wasn't to make something from nothing, but to convert
electrical energy (solar, etc.) into an energy dense form such as a liquid hydrocarbon. It happens that liquid hydrocarbons are easy to transfer from
one container to another, and offer high energy density storage for things like automobile transportation, etc.
Impractical as it might be on a benchtop scale, I think conversion to ammonia is going to be the most direct way of storing hydrogen as a R.T.
(although slightly pressurized) liquid. The bonus is that the hydrogen can be recovered pretty easily with a heated catalyst.
Another method is to make acetylene directly from carbon and hydrogen in an electric arc, or via calcium carbide. This can be directly hydrogenated
to ethane at mild temperatures. Ethane is the simplest alkane that can remain a liquid at room temperature, although its critical temperature is
about 32C at 700 PSI. Propane would be even better in this way, and Mg2C3 can be used as a starting point for this. Anyway,
here is some reading for those interested:
Attachment: de96001664_rpt38.pdf (926kB)
This file has been downloaded 576 times
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by WGTR | I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that the OP wants to break thermodynamic laws, but perhaps I'm missing an earlier thread/post.
|
I don't think anyone is saying that.
Up to and including now, N2 + 3 H2 == > 2 NH3 requires Born-Haber, an energy inefficient process. Then reverting that back to H2 would also be
energy intensive.
A VERY expensive way to store energy, if you ask me.
|
|
|
WGTR
National Hazard
Posts: 971
Registered: 29-9-2013
Location: Online
Member Is Offline
Mood: Outline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat | I have some theoretical interest for renewable energy.
An experiment could use any such energy source for electrolysis of water. The problem is extremely low density of produced hydrogen gas. I'd prefer to
use it for some hydrogenation reaction. Is there any such reaction which can be easily catalyzed in aqueous solution? Hydrogenation of carbon dioxide
to methane isn't ideal solution even if it works because methane is still gas (takes however only one-forth of original volume of hydrogen).
|
I think the questions are fair. It can be difficult to search for these things online if one is unfamiliar with the proper search terms. I would
like to apologize to the OP for not answering more directly before.
I don't know of any hydrogenation reaction that can occur through direct catalysis in aqueous solution, at least not ones that are useful for energy
storage. There is an electrolytic process involving the reduction of CO2 in aqueous solution, however. The reference that I'm going to
post is somewhat dated, and better references may be available. However, it should provide some ideas.
Attachment: Electrocatalytic activity of Cu electrode in electroreduction of CO2.pdf (365kB)
This file has been downloaded 699 times
This wiki link should provide some general information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochemical_reduction_of_ca...
This skips the step of producing hydrogen as an intermediate product, although it will likely be produced at the same time as the desired product.
Producing C2 and greater hydrocarbons is somewhat of the "holy grail" of these electrosynthesis techniques for reasons that you mention. Methane is
easier to store than hydrogen, but it still requires high pressures and/or low storage temperatures. One option is to explore the use of high surface
area materials to facilitate methane storage. I've included one such reference below:
Attachment: Methane storage in zeolite-like carbon materials.pdf (2MB)
This file has been downloaded 697 times
As blogfast25 and others have alluded to, poor efficiency will likely rear its ugly head. This may or may not be a concern for your
current situation. In some papers on electroreduction of CO2, hydrogen is left out of the efficiency calculations, although it may be a
sizeable proportion of the overall products. Keep that in mind.
Finally, are you thinking up an entry for the current Hackaday competition? A lot of your questions seem to be related to this year's topic.
[Edited on 5-25-2015 by WGTR]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
WGTR:
All these 'exotic' electrochemical thingymejibs are 'interesting' but rarely lead to anything practical. Just look how sophisticated both types of Li
batteries are!
[Edited on 25-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
SupFanat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 86
Registered: 26-4-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It's a good idea for a rocket launching facility. Rockets should use renewable fuels as well. It may be the same fuels which are used today but from
renewable sources.
|
|
|
Molecular Manipulations
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 17-12-2014
Location: The Garden of Eden
Member Is Offline
Mood: High on forbidden fruit
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by SupFanat |
Rockets should use renewable fuels as well. It may be the same fuels which are used today but from renewable sources. |
Getting hydrogen from water is less 'renewable' than current methods. Sure, we wont run out of water, but where do you think the electricity comes
from? Unless you live in France it's probably from fossil fuels. The additional steps of carrying electricity through wires, through an inefficient
cell, and storing the product wastes more.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
|
|
|
SupFanat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 86
Registered: 26-4-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Who says it must be electricity from grid?
Only local renewable power plant makes sense.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sure, you could use a wind farm (e.g.) to generate the electricity for electrolysis. So what?
|
|
|
vmelkon
National Hazard
Posts: 669
Registered: 25-11-2011
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: autoerotic asphyxiation
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Up to and including now, N2 + 3 H2 == > 2 NH3 requires Born-Haber, an energy inefficient process. Then reverting that back to H2 would also be
energy intensive.
A VERY expensive way to store energy, if you ask me. |
I don't know how energy intensive the process for making NH3 is, but for the later part, it is NOT necessary to break down NH3 back to the elements.
You can just burn NH3 in a combustion engine and you get N2 + H2O.
Apparently, there was one canadian who did that in the 1970s. The video of the interview is on Youtube.
Signature ==== Is this my youtube page? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA5PYtul5aU
We must attach the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance and give a few good jolts.
Yes my evolutionary friends. We are all homos here. |
|
|
Molecular Manipulations
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 17-12-2014
Location: The Garden of Eden
Member Is Offline
Mood: High on forbidden fruit
|
|
Exactly. Regardless of the source, there's much better ways to store energy.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If it is then it should be easy to find or to find references to that invention. I'm deeply sceptical about that route.
[Edited on 26-5-2015 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
SupFanat
Hazard to Self
Posts: 86
Registered: 26-4-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I could use a small wind turbine but it's useless thing without some energy storage. Inefficient electrolysis is still better that 0% efficiency.
|
|
|
Zyklon-A
International Hazard
Posts: 1547
Registered: 26-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fluorine radical
|
|
This doesn't increase efficiency much, but a safer way to harness electricity from recombining hydrogen and oxygen than 'simple' burning is a
schmantic fuel cell. This was employed in the Apollo Moon lander, during the day, solar panels powered the lander as well as split water and stored
the constitute gaseous elements in cylinders. When solar power is unavailable (at night) the stored fuel was recombined using a schmantic fuel cell.
Not sure what advantage this has over rechargeable batteries though.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
