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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  |
Well that is what we are going to figure out. Keep it on an atomic level, and keep the comparison to our galaxy.
Take a planet, and its moon(s) compared to one atom
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There at NO atoms in these extreme conditions. Atoms are fairly 'delicate' quantum systems, they can only exist in a fairly narrow window of
conditions.
The core of the Sun, e.g., is 'hot particle soup', i.e. plasma. No atoms in sight.
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Zombie
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Hmmmm. So the sun could NEVER become a black hole nor a vacuum yet everything revolves around the sun.
What if you took the sun as the nucleus of the galaxy, and compared all the planets as atoms.
That would make the center of a nucleus much like the sun. It goes into a new realm.
Now compress the entire galaxy (lump of steel, that is mostly empty space on an atomic level) into the sun at infinite pressure. Keep going until What
happens?
To keep it simpler... What Could happen when you do this to just one atom?
Edit:
Beer run... What are you fellas drinking, I'm buyin' 
[Edited on 5-27-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Zomb:
Atoms aren't miniature solar systems, with the electrons moving neatly in nice little orbits. Instead, electrons are 'smeared out' over space, forming
three-dimensional standing matter waves, largely due to the particle-wave duality that lies at the heart of Quantum Mechanics. When small particles
travel fast enough, they start behaving like matter-waves.
These standing waves (in steady state atoms) we call orbitals.
Any analogy with a Stellar system and its planets was basically abandoned completely after Bohr and with the advent of Schrodinger.
A particle in a one-dimensional box is the simplest Quantum System, that illustrates the principle well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_in_a_box
[Edited on 27-5-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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I understand this. That's why I am using atoms for a comparative.
There is nothing else I can think of to keep it simple.
If you apply the idea of atomic bonding to a planetary system there is enough of a similarity to allow for concept.
Same for water, and electricity.
Didn't Schrodinger also have an invisible cat? You think MY concept doesn't fit...
My offer stands. I think my theory of duality/singularity where opposites become one at some point has merit.
Same for the concept of an infinitely compacted atom containing massive amounts of energy.
Also there is the space time fabric where infinite pressure is on the opposite side of infinite vacuum. The center of this would be the singularity,
and either side the duality.
If someone can find a way to narrow down the odds, and start proving how any of these concepts COULD be possible vs stating they cant be possible due
to whatever we don't YET know. There's a pay day in it. Albeit a 12 pack, and a bag of chips... It's on me.
I think the most interesting thing so far that no one touched on is my statement that ALL known laws of physics would apply in such a state of matter
yet there would be nothing to apply them to.
Perhaps that alone is a huge clue as to what happens?
I know... I sound like the kid making Gold from peanut butter. I'd rather have the peanut butter.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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I needs me a peanut butter sammich!
Schrodinger's Cat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat
I put my cat in the tumble drier once but I didn't have the heart to close the capsule...
That'll be two Bitcoins for the lessons so far. You go 'private', that's what you get.
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by blogfast25]
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byko3y
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There's a lot of other ways to jerk youself, you can collect some old things, you can create image of how genious and funny you are, but talking about
black hole, which humanity knows almost nothing about, is kinda extravagant option.
Find youself a girl, you know. I'm talking metaphorically.
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blogfast25
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That butt shrapnel starting to hurt again?
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neptunium
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oh here we go....
there is nothing wrong about wondering at the universe is there byko3y?
i dont always understand Zombie's point and metaphore but he at least like to questions things and observe phenomenon arround himself ...
Isn't that the reason this forum even exist?
I sudjest you get a life bro, or get on the subject like everyone else and contribute. Your thought matters more than you think . venture an opinion
or what are you even doing on here?
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byko3y
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neptunium, you can say anything about black holes, and anything will be valid. You can say that anything captured by a black hole will turn into a
cow. Most likely nobody would ever have a change to disproof your theory, that's why talking about black holes is mostly unscientifical, just like
talking about god. It's nice to have an invisible fellow flying around on the cloud and watching for everybody, but I don't think you can show any
facts about him.
The main reason I talk about this is the first message in this thread. It was about falling into the black hole, while much more valid question is "do
the black holes actually exist or maybe so-called black holes are some other objects?".
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blogfast25
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Complete bullshit. Far more is known about black holes than you make out. A bit like HIV/AIDS, when I come to think of it.
And in case you still don't get it, Zomb et al are just horsing around a bit. Context and subtext are wasted on imbeciles like you.
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by blogfast25]
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neptunium
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no you are missing the point.
much scientific achievemnt has been done speculating about what is out there and what if...
black holes are a prime example of that they are very real and we can measure their effect on surrounding matter and verify Einstin laws with the
bending of light and electromagnetic waves arround them.
Much research has been accomplihsed with the little we know about them and much more can be speculated.
there is nothing wrong about a silly question.
One the power of science is to predict what would happen even if we are never witness of the actual event, the math is very clear about much of what
happens to a falling body into one of these object .... up to a point.
beyond that you are correct , anybody can assume anything within the boundaries of what is possible .
lets not forget that not so long ago nobody would have dreamed of ever seeing an atom, yet there we are today.
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blogfast25
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Nept:
I wish he'd read and understand that Einstein quote of yours: it's so applicable to buko3y. 
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by byko3y | neptunium, you can say anything about black holes, and anything will be valid. You can say that anything captured by a black hole will turn into a
cow. Most likely nobody would ever have a change to disproof your theory, that's why talking about black holes is mostly unscientifical, just like
talking about god. It's nice to have an invisible fellow flying around on the cloud and watching for everybody, but I don't think you can show any
facts about him.
The main reason I talk about this is the first message in this thread. It was about falling into the black hole, while much more valid question is "do
the black holes actually exist or maybe so-called black holes are some other objects?". |
Email Hawking. I understand he replies to many.
No offense taken bro but Neptunium's point is valid. It hurts NOTHING to speculate, and attempt to congeal a thought. Even if it is only the faintest
spark of a concept. That's how every great realization begins.
Who would have EVER thought to lick a frog, or eat an oyster?
Who is accepted as the leading authority on black hole theory? Why not all of us? I doubt god told the man what was up. I also doubt he flew there,
and examined anything... Why is he so well respected? Because he thinks. He connects the dots in logical ways. Provable??? Hell no. Not yet. I think
not ever because I think BH's are something different.
Am I wrong?
I could have been out at Harry's bar, seducing some local "dirty foot" or any number of other things.
Here I pot pen to paper, and thought.
It's all good bro. Just keep the faith, and forget the negative stuff. Hell is pretty full.
Edit: I spelled Hawking's name wrong a few times. I wonder if he noticed.
[Edited on 5-28-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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byko3y
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You can say whatever you want, until you start telling you have actual facts. In the later case I will ask you to show the facts.
The black holes I usually see look like this http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/images/hs-2015-19-a-print...
and this http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/images/hs-2010-18-a-print...
and this http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/hu/db/images/hs-2014-41-b-print...
and this https://www.spacetelescope.org/images/opo9728b/
and this https://www.spacetelescope.org/images/potw1340a/
Just to explain you how much nothing we know about black holes.
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IrC
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byko3y why are you bothering to join this discussion?
Did you know one second before the first nuclear device detonated no one in history had ever before seen a nuclear detonation? So tell us why was it
the scientists had so many men and measuring devices assembled to watch the event when said event had never before been witnessed. Answer? The math.
It is as simple as that. Do you think they risked all that money manpower and resources, even their very careers if they did not already know the bomb
was going to go bang before the fact? From all your posts one thing is clear. You do not understand the math, meaning you cannot derive a theoretical
picture in your thoughts about something which cannot be seen. The math paints a picture of physical reality and gives one insight into more than the
mere picture alone. How was it that a scientist studying the Equations of Einstein came to the realization black holes were a very real possibility?
The math. Measurements of the effect this unknown entity has upon matter and energy within its fields combined with a visual conception and
understanding based upon the math tells one a great deal about said entity. Assuming of course one understands the math so well one can visualize
events taking place with understanding as to why, cause and effect. You are approaching this discussion from a metaphysical, a philosophical view with
no understanding of the math. Therefore no understanding of the subject. One cannot hope to derive meaningful conclusions based upon this. Hawkings
understands the math, many here understand the math. To some degree even I understand the math. When you do, come back and tell us black holes do not
exist.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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aga
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Science and scientific methods are all well and good, however are pretty much useless until somebody actually wants to know or do something, or has an
idea they would like to test.
That's what random, wild speculation is for.
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byko3y
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The energy on nuclear fission was known long before the bomb was made, the energy was experimentally known, so it's all based on practical
observations. And there was multiple theories of nuclear explosion, but all of them were just theories, until a successfull explosion has been
performed.
I'm pretty sure in the begginning nobody even knew the critical mass of U235 until it was experimentally measured.
Today all we know about black holes is that they are large objects that have huge gravitation. It emmits X-rays intensively, and those facts, actual
facts, can give us some insights, although not much.
I'd like to remind you, that none on the earth understands why quantum physics work the way it works and not another. Scientists can observe the
phenomenas, find patterns, derrive formulas, but they still don't understand what makes the matter behave this way and not another. This is why nobody
can predict what will happen if the conditions change drastically.
Certainly, you can create any theory and make any assumption, but remember that I can make assumption that your assumptions are wrong, and it's just
my imagination versus your imagination, until you have actual facts.
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IrC
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You keep bringing up the concept of 'opinion'. Which is completely missing the point I was making that understanding the math yields great insight
into the previously unknown. Including allowing one to make predictions and derive theories which flow from the equations. It is all in the numbers
and numbers are not swayed by anyone's opinion.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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byko3y
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| Quote: Originally posted by IrC | | understanding the math yields great insight into the previously unknown. Including allowing one to make predictions and derive theories which flow
from the equations. It is all in the numbers and numbers are not swayed by anyone's opinion |
Sorry, you are wrong, and I've explained the reason. You can use math to predict only thing you already know. Otherwise it's just theory and you don't
know whether it will work in practice.
Numbers are just ideas living in humans heads, and the humans decide how to interpret them. And what human does his whole life is adjusting imaginary
ideas with real world things.
Math is not a magic - it's just one of many ways of thinking.
[Edited on 28-5-2015 by byko3y]
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IrC
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You are pegging out my crapometer. Speaking without knowledge. When I was a child of 11 over a half century ago I had no training and no access to
books of higher learning beyond simple school books for that grade level. In my poor rural area I had no public library to visit so no help there
either. Yet I spent my time studying on my own whatever I could find advancing beyond anything one could learn in grade school. I had never seen an
advanced physics book and had no knowledge of particle physics beyond the basic particles which comprised atoms. Working on my own on the subject of
radioactive decay I worked out a particle in my mind which I had never before encountered. I worked out the properties and energy levels and gave it
the name Velon. A few years later in 9th grade Jr high school I had a science teacher who saw my advanced abilities and loaned me many books to
further my study beyond what was taught in school. Much to my surprise I encountered the neutrino and saw that it had exactly all the same properties,
of course realizing the significance.
"Sorry, you are wrong, and I've explained the reason. You can use math to predict only thing you already know."
From mere energy differences and the math how is it I 'invented' the neutrino, something I had never before heard of, never read about. Clearly
something I DID NOT KNOW. Obviously this violates your premise "You can use math to predict only thing you already know". If you had even a remote
clue of that which you speak you would by now have some minute knowledge of the many advances in science which many have made which naturally flowed
in their thoughts from the leading of equations. From the direction they pointed in their sheer elegance. I have encountered many fundamental truths
in this way long before I learned by reading more advanced texts that others had gone there before. In the same way I made diamond dust from carbon in
a microwave oven in the late 60's a couple decades before I later learned just a few years prior to my home experiments someone had actually filed
patents on that exact process. I was studying the math of RF fields and crystal structures and the numbers told me this should work and it did. I did
not know beforehand this knowledge as I did not know others had already gone there. It was the math pointing to a possibility with a surety that
proved out in reality.
I know I am wasting my time explaining this to you but it makes me feel better to think others who read this will know from their own experience what
I say is true.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | SINGULARITY (Yay!!!!)       <== representation of one Scientist driven out of his mind by thinking about it. |
Whoa, hold the front page.
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IrC
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Which front page?
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/hawking-meant-black-hole...
"To be clear, Hawking was not claiming that black holes don’t exist. Astronomers have been observing black holes for decades, said Joseph
Polchinski, theoretical physicist at the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics at the University of California, Santa Barbara"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/stephen-hawking-th...
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://gizmodo.com/no-stephen-h...
All he was saying is an event horizon as commonly understood may not exist meaning at a quantum level energy can possibly escape (not the same as
saying it must escape or it all escapes). Or in effect the point where Ve=C is not well defined. To say it does not exist at all leaves the question
of where are all the stars that vanish going and why does the extreme gravity emanate from it. Clearly by studying the orbits of nearby stars the
gravity does exist and can be readily calculated. In effect he has changed the model, not tossed out the concept of a black hole.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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neptunium
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when trying to find out whats a singularity and whats going on there, at some point in the calculations the math will yield an infinite number of
solutions including 0... that does not mean stuff thrown in there turns into a sombrero wearing cow time traveling iphone or any of that non
sense...it means that our model is not enough to go that far .
general relativity with the Ricci tensor or the probability in quantum physics simply break down at the singularity, and every atempt to unify those 2
marvel of modern physics had failled ............... so far
Give it time , science progresses and i am sure something else will come along to save the day much like Einsten did to explain Newton's short
comings.
Science is filled with failled attempt and dead end theory. we just have to be right one time.
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | To say it does not exist at all leaves the question of where are all the stars that vanish going and why does the extreme gravity emanate from it.
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Those are not serious questions, I assume . . .
A complete understanding of paradoxes littering the field is achievable on ingestion of copious quantities of trip-weed, however, such understanding
happens to be all too fleeting, for me at least!
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blogfast25
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IrC:
Engaging with byko3y is like a fly landing on very dark shit. Empirically sustained statement, believe me...
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