Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Please do not "play" with Organic Peroxides.

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EnigmaBADGER - 28-6-2013 at 14:31

Finished a batch of HMTD today, washed several times, basified with a sodium bicarb solution. 750mg in a plastic pill container detonates for no apparent reason. No external stimuli. I had been reaching around it to get a filter paper and it detonated. Deafened instantly, and a tickling sensation in my left hand and all over my right arm. I am currently bleeding from over one dozen wounds, none of which are serious. The moral of this story is, don't trust peroxides.
After so many successful batches, I had begun to trust the compound. Mistake. I am lucky that I never store my primaries and secondaries in the same location, or I may not be here today.

If any home experimenters are considering synthesizing these compounds, please do not. Stick with something safer. Never trust these compounds, ever. And please stay safe, never be lax in your safety precautions.

These are not stable compounds.

Enjoy your education, and stay safe.

(I should have some pictures of even what such a tiny amount can do, even when you aren't holding an object containing such a compound.

Bot0nist - 28-6-2013 at 17:38

Thank you for sharing, and I am sorry this happened to you. I hope you are ok. I would be worried about imbedded plastic and its migration. I am no doctor though. It's easy to become complacent with peroxides. There unpredictability can give the illusion of safety. Can't say we they didnt warn you though. Every competent post or bit of information on the subject points out the extreme sensitivity and risks of organic peroxides. Not to sound like an ass, only saying I hope any who would try and use an organic peroxide as an initiator in a larger charge should take note...

Best of luck to you friend, and I wish you a speedy recovery.

thanks for sharing.

[Edited on 29-6-2013 by Bot0nist]

golfpro - 28-6-2013 at 19:09

heatshock detonators

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 28-6-2013 at 22:33

Ahhh i hate sensitive stuffs, one of my friends lost his life to a chlorate mixture, which is not even that sensitive compared to those explosives.

Ral123 - 28-6-2013 at 23:18

I don't trust even azide. I regularly hand press organic peroxides quite tough, but I do it with paper cylinder and with safety goggles, earphones and gloves. I kinda think it's god's job if they would go off.

Peroksit - 28-6-2013 at 23:30

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
I don't trust even azide. I regularly hand press organic peroxides quite tough, but I do it with paper cylinder and with safety goggles, earphones and gloves. I kinda think it's god's job if they would go off.

Why you don't trust lead azide ?
EnigmaBADGER :
Thanks for sharing

[Edited on 29-6-2013 by gamez34]

Ral123 - 29-6-2013 at 00:35

Because I'm aware of my level of incompetency. Now I've once made a batch that was so insensitive, when you burn it with open flame, it begins to crack all over the sample, when finally after already two seconds it detonates. This means if some devil decomposes for example one very small crystal azide, the whole thing is unlikely to go off. I also have the feeling(for now) that pure azide is both flame sensitive and with very small critical diameter, making it extremely potent primary.

NeonPulse - 29-6-2013 at 01:53

I have about the same amount lazily sitting in a plastic specimen jar too, which i think that i may just have to dispose of this is a sign! Previously I also have made quite a few batches of HMTD, all without a problem and every time i'm doing so little horror stories like these ones pop into my head. Even sometimes while at work i think about it going off like yours- for no reason. I once have got rid of most of a large batch (3-4g) before because it caused me to worry about it going off... Recently i got hold of some calcium carbide to make silver acetylide double salts, it's not as unstable but a tad more sensitive.

Pulverulescent - 29-6-2013 at 02:17

Quote:
Finished a batch of HMTD today, washed several times, basified with a sodium bicarb solution.

'Sorry to hear about your accident EB.
HMTD shouldn't detonate without some stimulus!
Plain water is sufficient for washing and adding NaHCO3 may have affected stability . . .

Peroksit - 29-6-2013 at 03:23

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
Because I'm aware of my level of incompetency. Now I've once made a batch that was so insensitive, when you burn it with open flame, it begins to crack all over the sample, when finally after already two seconds it detonates. This means if some devil decomposes for example one very small crystal azide, the whole thing is unlikely to go off. I also have the feeling(for now) that pure azide is both flame sensitive and with very small critical diameter, making it extremely potent primary.

hmm How much percent pure sodium azide used ?

golfpro - 29-6-2013 at 07:09

did you leave sodium bicarb on the product? I never used sodium bicarb in rinsing HMTD

chemcam - 29-6-2013 at 08:07

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse  
Recently i got hold of some calcium carbide to make silver acetylide double salts, it's not as unstable but a tad more sensitive.


With all the testing I have done SA*DS is far less sensitive than HMTD, sure it will detonate in any amount with no deflagration but that doesn't mean it's more sensitive. It's rather hard to make it go off by friction, and I have to really hit it with a hammer as well. HMTD goes off no problem by either of those. I haven't been able to harness static electricity to direct onto the compound yet for testing.

Also, I don't use calcium carbide because it is so dirty and makes a dark gray end product; If you ever looked at the wiki page you'll see a dark gray silver acetylide, that was obviously made from CaC2.

I use bottled acetylene and I get a clean white product. I would imagine that cleaner compounds will be less sensitive.

killswitch - 29-6-2013 at 10:50

HMTD is a bad choice. It has one of the highest friction sensitivities of any compound. Only contact explosives like Armstrong's mixture are worse.

Antiswat - 29-6-2013 at 10:51

interesting.. please make sure you rinse your wounds properly if this isnt already too long time ago for it having any effect, ive been waiting to hear an such 'meaningless' type accident with the infamous peroxides

could you point out the whole synthesis? i am of the belief that nothing happens for no reason at all, even things you perhaps shouldnt have done or deviated from the standard procedure

hope you dont have permanent injuries by this, but it would be a immesive help in understanding peroxides if you could write up how you did this with exact materials and all, one thing that has come by mind mind aswell as others on here, was that you didnt write whether you washed it or not after the NaHCO3, in which could have left it slightly basic

VladimirLem - 29-6-2013 at 10:51

...well...peroxides are dangerous as fuck but ...ive got an batch of around 0.5g stored around a half year in my fridge and nothing happens or even detonates...
i heared that HMTD is really sensible to chemical influences...maybe the sodium bicarbonate is the reason for your "poroblem"?



madcedar - 29-6-2013 at 11:02

Quote: Originally posted by EnigmaBADGER  
Finished a batch of HMTD today, washed several times, basified with a sodium bicarb solution. 750mg in a plastic pill container detonates for no apparent reason....

These are not stable compounds.

Enjoy your education, and stay safe.



How on Earth can you safely dispose of such a substance?

golfpro - 29-6-2013 at 11:07

^ To dispose I would say wet it first and formost, then put it into a big bucket of cold water and stir it around very good.

Trotsky - 29-6-2013 at 11:07

Doubtful that the bicarb is the problem. I've used it to neutralize all the peroxides I've made, and I've made many unusual ones. I like that it just releases CO2 so most of the byproducts of neutralization are just released into the atmosphere.

I have basified AP and it seemed that the residual bicarb actually desensitized it. I admit that I haven't made HMTD just because it didn't interest me, but I have made a dozen other peroxides including sodium peracetate and simple peroxyacetic acid, so I do have experience. I've lost interest expect perhaps as an initiator in a pinch.

When terrorists take me hostage I'll make some up and blast my way to freedom, for now though, I'll pass

papaya - 29-6-2013 at 12:32

As of peroxides one advantage of TATP is that it can be stored as a acetone solution without any danger (and I believe in any quantity) and when needed just pour some of it into water and dry. How this idea seems to you?

EnigmaBADGER - 29-6-2013 at 20:14

The container had an airtight seal. Is it possible that decomposition could have allowed for pressure to build that would have caused it to detonate?

Needless to say, I'm taking a break from energetics.

I'm most likely going to have to live with a few small pieces of plastic in me for the rest of my life, but I got the majority out.

EDIT: I would like to add when I'm HANDLING these substances I wear proper safety equipment, gloves and face protection, but I was completely unsuspecting of such a random detonation.

[Edited on 30-6-2013 by EnigmaBADGER]

NeonPulse - 30-6-2013 at 01:50

hope you recover well and don't let this deter you too much. energetics are a pretty neat and unique hobby and it would be a shame to let this throw you off it completely.:)

killswitch - 30-6-2013 at 06:25

Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a nice alternative to TATP and HMTD. As a liquid, it is extremely difficult to detonate unless confined. Condensation under the lid of the container will just drop back down.

Adsorbing it to nitrocellulose makes for a very powerful initiator for such cheap components.

Ral123 - 30-6-2013 at 06:35

Liquid primary? You're joking? This will be clumsy as NEPD but still dangerous.

EnigmaBADGER - 30-6-2013 at 14:43

Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a nice alternative to TATP and HMTD. As a liquid, it is extremely difficult to detonate unless confined. Condensation under the lid of the container will just drop back down.

Adsorbing it to nitrocellulose makes for a very powerful initiator for such cheap components.



MEKP has one major fault here. IT IS AN ORGANIC PEROXIDE. Just because a compound is a liquid that does not desensitize it any way, or make it more difficult to detonate. Anhydrous nitroglycerin is very dangerous, yet is a liquid.

Bot0nist - 30-6-2013 at 18:03

Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a nice alternative to TATP and HMTD.
...
Adsorbing it to nitrocellulose makes for a very powerful initiator for such cheap components.

If this is based off my post many years ago in the MEKP thread, please know, that while the MEPK did dissolve the NC, and it did detonate at high velocity as far as I can tell, more testing is needed to confirm whether it has the ability to initiate as a reliale primary, and it is still definatly as dangerous and unpredictable as any other organic peroxide.

madscientist - 1-7-2013 at 03:02

Liquids have the advantage that they don't have a crystal structure to shatter (which bears the risk of detonation), and they're always at maximum density, so compression (dangerous) can be avoided. But of course, organic peroxides are always profoundly dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.

Metathesis-izer - 1-7-2013 at 04:45

I remember the one incident report where a member described the "moment of detonation" with an organic peroxide was when he inserted a metal spoon (probably stainless steel) into a pile of DADP or TATP or similar chemical.

I'm not sure if organic peroxides are functional enough to warrant academic study, beyond what some academics report, that they are working on figuring out what additives (etc.) to add to hardware store acetone & peroxide so that they can't be used as an explosive.

Personally, I'm curious about the 'random' nature of these explosions. Why does it 'go off' in some cases, and not others ? Humidity, material of lab implement (e.g., the metal spoon), categories of impurity, etc.

Maybe academia & the US gov. don't want energetics hobbyists to figure out "how to make organic peroxides safe". But I have to believe that there is always some reason why a batch detonates when it does. Something more than just "God rolling the dice."


I was impressed by the one video a member posted of TATP used to detonate an ammonium nitrate mixture, knocking down a tree. That he risked losing a hand at the moment when he stuck the TATP ignitor in the AN makes me frown.

I would like to know more, but I don't think I would want to work with this category of materials except through a blast shield & using a robotic arm for the handling.

I appreciate the members who have shared the stories that make me realize the hazards involved with AP.

[Edited on 1-7-2013 by Metathesis-izer]

watson.fawkes - 1-7-2013 at 06:34

Quote: Originally posted by Metathesis-izer  
I have to believe that there is always some reason why a batch detonates when it does. Something more than just "God rolling the dice."
Just because there's a reason doesn't mean you'll ever be able to determine it.

For example, thermal diffusion includes solid-state diffusion within a crystal lattice. Consider a crystal of organic peroxide with some kind of high-strain crystal defect; that's going to be the generic case without some (very) special care in the crystallization step. Now just with thermal motion, there's going to be some motion in the vicinity of that crystal defect. When it rearranges, thermal motion having overcome the activation energy, it will release energy, creating a local hot spot. This provides more motion for other molecules to overcome activation energy. This can lead to thermal runaway (even if it mostly doesn't), and in the present example of an explosive, a spontaneous detonation.

So just because you can identify some circumstances that will trigger detonation doesn't mean that you'll ever be able to understand all of them. That's what the phrase "inherently unstable" actually means.

Ral123 - 1-7-2013 at 08:22

They can't add stuff to the acetone to make it unusable. They can add deadly catalysts, to make any AP very unstable.
You k3lws with no balls, go ahead and b1tch about organic peroxides and how DS and LA(elite) are almost perfect. Safety is in your head, not with particular compound. I've heard of people blowing themselves with high grade commercial materials.

EnigmaBADGER - 1-7-2013 at 09:10

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
They can't add stuff to the acetone to make it unusable. They can add deadly catalysts, to make any AP very unstable.
You k3lws with no balls, go ahead and b1tch about organic peroxides and how DS and LA(elite) are almost perfect. Safety is in your head, not with particular compound. I've heard of people blowing themselves with high grade commercial materials.


There is no perfect primary, as that is the nature of,well, primaries. Your lack of safety and common sense should not be a reason to insult others. If you would like to be careless with your life, so be it, but please do it away from others that can be harmed.

Now to hopefully continue to the thread again, I will try to remember anymore environmental factors at the time of the detonation.

Temperature was, and remains at 24C. (72)

The HMTD was stored in an airtight plastic container.

It was not exposed to direct sunlight.

The HMTD was never in contact with any metals during its synthesis.

Washed thrice with water, twice with a basic solution and thrice more with water.

Memory is fuzzy immediately prior and after the detonation, I was reaching around it to get a filter paper, it detonated sending shrapnel into my left hand, left arm, and right arm. Seemingly with no external stimulus.

Peroksit - 1-7-2013 at 10:26

EnigmaBADGER :
İt could be Electrostatic discharge ? how was the humidity ?


[Edited on 1-7-2013 by Peroksit]

EnigmaBADGER - 1-7-2013 at 10:59

Humidity is non existent. Electrostatic charge could have been a factor, but there's no way to know for sure.

[Edited on 1-7-2013 by EnigmaBADGER]

DougTheMapper - 2-7-2013 at 13:22

Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
Methyl ethyl ketone peroxide is a nice alternative to TATP and HMTD. As a liquid, it is extremely difficult to detonate unless confined. ...


All it takes is one careless move to stub a dropper on the bottom of a bottle of MEKP and kaboom... one errant tap of the stirring rod on glass, one dust particle of some incompatible compound... MEKP was my first and only organic peroxide. See a post of mine from 2009.

Seriously. Leave peroxides alone. You're just asking for trouble. It's not "if." It's "when." I feel sick just thinking about the idiotic amounts of this garbage I used to make when I was younger.

Anyway, good luck to all who are so foolish to continue. Post pictures of your injuries.

Ral123 - 2-7-2013 at 13:44

I wish more people had azides, so many of the peroxide accidents would be azide accidents. Great advices, leave the peroxides is all you need to be fine with energetics. I see a tendency, those who aren't really into energetics b1tch most about the peroxides. Those who are, talk about safety in general.

EnigmaBADGER - 2-7-2013 at 15:27


No matter how safe you are, at least according to yourself which is a very subjective point of a view, you will miss something eventually. When that happens, you'll be happy that you stayed away from the organic peroxides.

chemcam - 2-7-2013 at 17:04

Quote: Originally posted by EnigmaBADGER  

No matter how safe you are, at least according to yourself which is a very subjective point of a view, you will miss something eventually. When that happens, you'll be happy that you stayed away from the organic peroxides.

EnigmaBADGER, this is not directed right at you, so do not take offense this is a general rebuttal to the subject.

You could miss something with anything and be killed, for instance:

driving (car wreck)
walking (ran over, fall down)
having sex (get STD)
eating food (choke)
swimming (shark attack, drown)
golfing (rogue lightning)
any sport (broken neck)
list goes on forever...

So you better just give up now and admit yourself into a padded room to keep from having bad things happen. Even then though your doctors could prescribe the wrong dose of medication and kill you anyway.

There is NO WAY to avoid all negative events. You can lessen the chance of them happening but no matter if it's peroxides or eating lunch, both could kill or injure you.

With peroxides it all boils down to your surroundings, how focused are you at the task at hand and have you accounted for all controllable variables. All of that is 100% accomplishable, there has got to be a reason for a detonation, these things are not random.




madscientist - 2-7-2013 at 19:44

Your analogies fail to sufficiently describe the hazards of organic peroxides. More appropriate would be darting across a LA freeway drunk, disoriented, handcuffed and blindfolded, a roller skate on one foot and an army boot on the other, obscured by camouflage and the cover of darkness.

Quote:
...there has got to be a reason for a detonation, these things are not random.


Not one you'll ever discern.

Trotsky - 2-7-2013 at 20:37

That's a great analogy. You may make that trip a dozen times and be completely fine but the one time a car is coming, you can't see it and have no way of appreciating its existence until you're hit with it.

I have never had an accident, knock on wood, but I can almost guarantee that if more people would be making lead azide there would be fewer accidents overall, but our course there'd be more lead azide accidents.

There is a good reason azides were favored commercially despite the increased cost of production.

Ral123 - 2-7-2013 at 21:15

Peroxides can be used commercially, the question is, what will be the cost of safety. In the worst case, the blast caps will be inserted only by robots or something.
Personally I have no intention of letting myself to be injured by 2g of AP-enough for a decent blast cap. My charges are generally sub 20g so if I insert it with sticks, it shouldn't be problem.

Metathesis-izer - 3-7-2013 at 04:37

Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes  
Just because there's a reason doesn't mean you'll ever be able to determine it.


Thanks for the replies.

The metal spoon example I think was with Potassium Chlorate.

I just wonder if there's a set of parameters that can be established to make some of the unstable compounds less unstable.

e.g. transporting them in ice, packaging them in a certain humidity range or with added graphite if they are static sensitive - etc.

chemcam - 3-7-2013 at 07:31

Quote: Originally posted by madscientist  
Your analogies fail to sufficiently describe the hazards of organic peroxides.


I suppose you are right but your analogy seems like it is from the view of an anti-peroxide user. What I mean is drugs are bad to everyone except the people that use them. Explosives are a bad thing to everyone that doesn't know how to use them properly. You see what I'm getting at?

If a person is careful it mostly comes down to probability and how often a person uses peroxides. I haven't used any in a long time so I couldn't care less about them, but really, I don't think they are as bad as people say.

[Edited on 7-3-2013 by chemcam]

Peroksit - 3-7-2013 at 11:36

What is the best primary explosive for kitchen pyros :D ? Sodium azide is very expensive may be DDNP is good choice for amateur ? What is your thinks ?( in the terms of safely )

chemcam - 3-7-2013 at 11:43

Quote: Originally posted by Peroksit  
What is the best primary explosive for kitchen pyros :D ?


Really?!

Kitchens are for culinary purposes. If you want explosive food, eat tacobell.

golfpro - 3-7-2013 at 18:56

I have heard ANFO can be used as a primary, as long as it is under 1 gram it works decent.

EnigmaBADGER - 3-7-2013 at 20:50

Quote: Originally posted by golfpro  
I have heard ANFO can be used as a primary, as long as it is under 1 gram it works decent.


You were told false, ANFO is MUCH too insensitive to ever be used as anything besides a blasting agent.

From what I hear DDNP is a great primary, very insesitive to friction and Shock. I believe (Don't quote me!) the process is something along the lines of Picric Acid to Picramic, to DDNP.

madscientist - 3-7-2013 at 22:09

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Quote: Originally posted by madscientist  
Your analogies fail to sufficiently describe the hazards of organic peroxides.


I suppose you are right but your analogy seems like it is from the view of an anti-peroxide user. What I mean is drugs are bad to everyone except the people that use them. Explosives are a bad thing to everyone that doesn't know how to use them properly. You see what I'm getting at?

If a person is careful it mostly comes down to probability and how often a person uses peroxides. I haven't used any in a long time so I couldn't care less about them, but really, I don't think they are as bad as people say.

[Edited on 7-3-2013 by chemcam]


Those who think that accidents with peroxides can be prevented with "proper handling" are ignorant on the matter themselves.

Ral123 - 3-7-2013 at 22:28

Not prevented, but damage minimized. My only "accidental" explosion was long time ago, I made a 250ml batch with sulfuric I think. We had moles in the yard and I told my father I'll take care. The yield was high and I didn't bother filtering it. Just left the thing spread on styrofoam on the hot summer sun outside. So the batch self disposed of itself :D There were few pieces of the styrofoam left. It was cracked and melted a little.

Peroksit - 3-7-2013 at 23:04

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Quote: Originally posted by Peroksit  
What is the best primary explosive for kitchen pyros :D ?


Really?!

Kitchens are for culinary purposes. If you want explosive food, eat tacobell.

I was talking about ametour pyros when I said kitchen :D Sorry my english not good Why you don't want to understand me ?

[Edited on 4-7-2013 by Peroksit]

dangerous amateur - 4-7-2013 at 01:55


Quote:

What is the best primary explosive for kitchen pyros :D ? Sodium azide is very expensive may be DDNP is good choice for amateur ? What is your thinks ?( in the terms of safely )


Yes it is expensive, if you can get it at all. But you wont use large amounts, so 50 or 100g will last you very long.
100mg of lead azide + booster will suffice. At least in my opinion.

But i wont call this safe. Static and friction are hard to control during filling and pressing a cap.


And DDNP is nice, but first you have to make proper picric acid first...

testimento - 6-7-2013 at 01:33

My friend is fuckin insane. Or was. He is still alive, tough.

But he is the one who did an entire pound of acetone peroxide and handled it like a kid, or fool. I saw the part he crystallized it out and filtered it and then poured it for drying, into several piles on his table. And he did not neutralize or recrystallize them, just washed with water to get rid of the largest shit and put them down there. He made some tests to demonstrate the instability of that stuff: a nail dropped from few centimeters caused instant "CRACK" like detonation, as most describe the sound of AP going off. I still wonder he is alive, he even mentioned having it in glass bottle with water and he played with it like some toy balling it in his hands and even dropped it once.

Well, quess he was the lucky one. I wouldn't mind thouching, or being even near of peroxides, knowing how unsensitive they are. I dont even like playing with stable nitrate synthesis, the partially irrational fear of reaction overrun and spontaneous detonation even when following the stringest guidelines sits monolithically on the back of my mind.

Antiswat - 6-7-2013 at 15:03

Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Quote: Originally posted by EnigmaBADGER  

No matter how safe you are, at least according to yourself which is a very subjective point of a view, you will miss something eventually. When that happens, you'll be happy that you stayed away from the organic peroxides.

EnigmaBADGER, this is not directed right at you, so do not take offense this is a general rebuttal to the subject.

You could miss something with anything and be killed, for instance:

driving (car wreck)
walking (ran over, fall down)
having sex (get STD)
eating food (choke)
swimming (shark attack, drown)
golfing (rogue lightning)
any sport (broken neck)
list goes on forever...

So you better just give up now and admit yourself into a padded room to keep from having bad things happen. Even then though your doctors could prescribe the wrong dose of medication and kill you anyway.

There is NO WAY to avoid all negative events. You can lessen the chance of them happening but no matter if it's peroxides or eating lunch, both could kill or injure you.

With peroxides it all boils down to your surroundings, how focused are you at the task at hand and have you accounted for all controllable variables. All of that is 100% accomplishable, there has got to be a reason for a detonation, these things are not random.





that is the anhydrous logic of life you just described there (:

if you dont want to take the risk of a star blinding you slightly for 0.5 second, then you dont pick pyrotechnics as a hobby
if you dont care to try to give alot of time to understand a specific compound, and wash is beyond throughly, then you dont care for your life, and you shouldnt be doing anything around energetics
if you dont even read the whole synthesis of such compounds, then its just a pure wonder that you havent killed yourself on a loose laying rock or in a desperate attempt to tie your shoes

comment posted not much before this one states a superior k3wl behavior
handling it like if its a joke
just wanting to die really
glass bottle
doesnt even know what neutralize means
massive amount
massive amount, of a >>PRIMARY

and then you guys keep on saying that this compound can and will without reason go off when its fully neutralized (neutralized, not basified) in tiny amounts?
no
were missing something here
organic peroxides can and potentially will and especially at elevated temperatures decompose and eventually settle on various surfaces, mainly as decently sensitive crystals, despite ive seen a quite nice crystal being crushed without anything happening
call that playing with your life or not, but the fact that properly synthesized ap can be that stable, just shows that you need to go blindfolded through the whole synthesis in order to fuck it up

tl;dr
follow and understand the procedure aswell as the properties of the compound

Simbani - 7-7-2013 at 00:29

Oh my god, please stop it!
I see, a few guys out here simply cannot understand the unpredictability of AP. Bad for you, but please stop playing down the dangers of AP!
What you write here is open for everyone in the world (and mostly non-chemists), so beware posting wrong information or dangerouz nonsense.
Thank you.

papaya - 7-7-2013 at 02:05

No peroxide thread is complete without pages of hollywar :P
Anyway both sides cannot prove scientifically what they are stating(phrases ''it's known because my friend lost his parts'' and ''nothing wrong with me yet'') and this is going to last forever. And regarding to beliefs my opinion is that these compound can be chemically incompatible with many other things (dirt, traces of some chemicals, etc) which is why they behave so differently. For example I've heard many bad cases when the thing was put in a medicine bottle, is there something special in this type of casings (may be they are coated with something usually) ?

Bot0nist - 7-7-2013 at 06:48

One of the things that makes organic peroxides such a danger is there unpredictability. It is so easy to become complacent when working with them, and people seem to get the idea that if they have made and used peroxides 100 times with not even a single unexpected detonation that they are somehow safe or stable. This is simply not the case. There are literally countless reasons and variables that could contribute to an unexpected detonation, many of which could be completely outside the experaminters control.

Years back, I synthesised a little less than a gram of TCAP for a little bang, something I had done countless times before with no trouble. My proceedue was correct (pure reactants, agressive temp managment, etc) and the product looked and behaved as usual. When transfering the dried material from its filter paper (letting the powder pour off the paper) the whole lot deflagrated in my face in an enormous orange fireball. I was not injured, but had I not worn safety goggles, I very easily could have injured my eyes. Now, it was a very dry day, so I always attributed this to static, but also maybe friction. Not sure, but it was the last time made such an amount of TCAP. I have also had a very similar experiance of a ml of MEKP detonating when a popsicle stick was dipped in it.

All the proponents of organic proxides will jump on this, assuring me and all readers that the fault lies in me improperly synthesising these material, or that my reagents surely must have been unpure and contaminated. This is simple not the case. I had made these demons many times before with no issues at all, and even thought as you all do, that the sensitivity and unpredictability must surely be greatly exagerated, or that mistakes are being made only by the incpompetant handling or synthesis. After that first unexpected shock, I looked back in my mind and remembered all the times I could have been maimed or killed while handling them, and I swore off OPs for anything but a novelty to be made in the mg scale range.

Good luck to you all, and play safe.

golfpro - 7-7-2013 at 08:10

b0tonist, when you say mg range what number do you mean?? I can imgaine ETN (1-15g) could be set off with something like 50mg or less of HMTD or AP. Are they any safer in very small amounts like that?

Bot0nist - 7-7-2013 at 08:29

50mg for small pops or playing with only. And thats pushing it. An organic peroxide is never safe when inserted into a larger charge, and they should never be used as an initiator, IMO.

I doubt 50mg will initiate though. Why do all the kewls use several grams on YT then?. Inserting a TCAP cap into a charge big enough to take your life is not something I would ever do. To each there own I suppose. Maybe im a scardey cat, but I have read and heard enough horror stories to know better...

[Edited on 7-7-2013 by Bot0nist]

golfpro - 7-7-2013 at 11:47

Thinking of some initiators, the two easiest ones seem to be silver acetylide and lead Azide. Silver acetylide would be most likely but I first need silver nitrate, for this I have silver, but I do not have nitric acid to form the silver nitrate, to make nitric acid, I'd probably do the copper and HCl and nitrating salt procedure. I will never buy or order nitric acid. Once I get silver nitrate, I still need Carbon and Calcium, I could form CaC2 with heating in a glass tube I've seen done, and of course then make the rig for acetylene gas into the silver nitrate solution. My best option would still take a lot of work and very costly and may not even be possible for me, but then again, if it could be done, I could be confident I am dealing with safe caps for any detonations I want to do.

So the question is how serious am I about it. Look at the channel detonators anonymous on youtube, that guy is very sophisticated if you watch those videos you'll see, almost proffesional. He must take a big interest in explosives.

Look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkfiKlYDxno


[Edited on 7-7-2013 by golfpro]

[Edited on 7-7-2013 by golfpro]

Adas - 8-7-2013 at 08:32

B0tonist, I have tried igniting TATP with static several times with no success. This seems like a mystery to me.

madscientist - 8-7-2013 at 19:49

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
and then you guys keep on saying that this compound can and will without reason go off when its fully neutralized (neutralized, not basified) in tiny amounts?
no
were missing something here
organic peroxides can and potentially will and especially at elevated temperatures decompose and eventually settle on various surfaces, mainly as decently sensitive crystals, despite ive seen a quite nice crystal being crushed without anything happening
call that playing with your life or not, but the fact that properly synthesized ap can be that stable, just shows that you need to go blindfolded through the whole synthesis in order to fuck it up

tl;dr
follow and understand the procedure aswell as the properties of the compound


Bullshit. Anyone who says peroxides are stable and can be handled safely is not a real chemist. I challenge you to find even just one PI with any credibility who would say otherwise.

bfesser - 9-7-2013 at 05:52

<strong>madscientist</strong>, I'm unfamiliar with your acronym. Do you mean <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal_investigator" target="_blank">Principal Investigator</a> <img src="../scipics/_wiki.png" />(PI)?

madscientist - 9-7-2013 at 18:23

Yep, that's it.

Metathesis-izer - 17-7-2013 at 04:39

Quote: Originally posted by Simbani  
Oh my god, please stop it!
I see, a few guys out here simply cannot understand the unpredictability of AP.


I understand that it's unpredictable.

In a video that someone posted where they used the tri version, TATP, as an initiator for tannerite or Ammonium Nitrate, it made it seem useful, almost, tame & predictable.

What I still wonder is why experienced chemical researchers haven't determined what makes it un-predictable/ how to make it predictable & repeatable.

Admittedly, they may not want the general public to learn that type of secret.

Having worked with chemists, and in electronics R&D, where it seems "there's always a way". I wonder if the sources of AP un-stability have been identified, in a research context, but not released, e.g. "still too un-stable for field use."

Manifest - 17-7-2013 at 04:49

How much did you make?

Semiexpyrokid - 17-8-2015 at 07:04

Everyone knows that because something went smoothly 100X, that #101 won't get you. Of 9 out of 10, 999 out of 1000... Attempting to "quantify risk" by saying I've done it this way for X years...doesn't quite hack it. Obviously luck, or part of your procedure, that you may or may not even be aware of, are big drivers. But these things CAN be hard to quantify. Any ideas on the "best" way? Note I'm quite aware this is a rather fuzzy and hard question to pin down. Impossible maybe! LOL ut I'm curious to hear opinions.

NeonPulse - 17-8-2015 at 15:23

Quote: Originally posted by Semiexpyrokid  
Everyone knows that because something went smoothly 100X, that #101 won't get you. Of 9 out of 10, 999 out of 1000... Attempting to "quantify risk" by saying I've done it this way for X years...doesn't quite hack it. Obviously luck, or part of your procedure, that you may or may not even be aware of, are big drivers. But these things CAN be hard to quantify. Any ideas on the "best" way? Note I'm quite aware this is a rather fuzzy and hard question to pin down. Impossible maybe! LOL ut I'm curious to hear opinions.





Best way for what exactly?

ecos - 17-8-2015 at 23:39

Peroxide is stable if you neutralize it well from acids. I stored 10g of AP in a plastic casing at room temp. for 5 months and nothing wrong happened

please review : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=29346&...

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-8-2015 at 09:07

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  
Peroxide is stable if you neutralize it well from acids. I stored 10g of AP in a plastic casing at room temp. for 5 months and nothing wrong happened

please review : http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=29346&...

Your link doesn't work!
Where you refering to your tread Hydrogen Peroxyde Explosives?

[Edited on 18-8-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

byko3y - 19-8-2015 at 09:04

"Anyone who says peroxides are stable and can be handled safely is not a real chemist"
Let's clarify the definicion of "not stable":
- HMTD degrades over time;
- HMTD will not explode for no reason.
Some people actually tested sensitivity of peroxides and other properties: "Primary Explosives" Robert Matyáš, Jiří Pachman

PHILOU Zrealone - 19-8-2015 at 09:30

Quote: Originally posted by byko3y  
"Anyone who says peroxides are stable and can be handled safely is not a real chemist"
Let's clarify the definicion of "not stable":
- HMTD degrades over time;
- HMTD will not explode for no reason.
Some people actually tested sensitivity of peroxides and other properties: "Primary Explosives" Robert Matyáš, Jiří Pachman

There is peroxyde and peroxyde...
-Even if sensitive HMTD, CTAP (CDAP-CTeAP) are handlable unconfined in minute amount without much risk.
-Other peroxydes are touchy sensitive like diisopropyl ether peroxyde and diethylether peroxyde.
-Other are "stable" and transportable by kg or tons
See:
*H2O2 (up to 50% = 200 Volumes O2/ L)
*benzoyl peroxyde (C6H5-CO-O-CO-C6H5),
*urea peroxyde(NH2-CO-NH2.H2O2),
*sodium percarbonate (2Na2CO3·3H2O2)
*sodium perborate (NaBO3·H2O/NaBO2(OH)2 or dimeric Na2B2O4(OH)4)
*sodium peroxosulfate (Na2SO5)
*sodium peroxodisulfate (Na2S2O8)
*...


[Edited on 19-8-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

kecskesajt - 21-8-2015 at 09:32

Can somebody give info about TMDD?Only heard that it is quite insensitive to shock and friction.

PHILOU Zrealone - 22-8-2015 at 03:05

Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt  
Can somebody give info about TMDD?Only heard that it is quite insensitive to shock and friction.

Maybe give a longer explicit name than TMDD or the putative way it is produced... that acronym doesn't lead to a known chemical compound.

greenlight - 22-8-2015 at 03:42

I think he is talking about Tetramethylendiperoxidedicarbamide.

Info here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3305

Think it is less powerful than HMTD but more sensitive to impact.

kecskesajt - 22-8-2015 at 03:42

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt  
Can somebody give info about TMDD?Only heard that it is quite insensitive to shock and friction.

Maybe give a longer explicit name than TMDD or the putative way it is produced... that acronym doesn't lead to a known chemical compound.

Tetramethylenediperoxidedicarbamide
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3305

greenlight - 22-8-2015 at 03:49

Hahahaha, same link, same time:D

[Edited on 22-8-2015 by greenlight]

kecskesajt - 22-8-2015 at 06:37

Wow.
Self experience:Dried good, cant detonate with friction,only detonated the 1/3 amount of powder I placed on an anvil when struck VERY hard.

additives in our chemicals

shadowwinter - 19-10-2015 at 21:47

Just want to throw a couple of ideas out there.
First it might not be your inconsistencys that cause mishaps.
Think, your chems all come from somewere and if you buy them it might becase of inconsistent methods of manufacture something which is out of our control.

The other thing that I think contributes to the danger of peroxides is how easy it is to make them. I would bet big money if you could make lead azide out of readily available chemicals from the dollar store tomorrow that azide would get as bad or worse of a rep.

Its just like guns some are more common than others and so contribute to more deaths doesn't make them any more lethal.
If you get two idiots and give one Hg fulminate and one TATP who is more of a danger to them selves? Exactly its not the compounds but who gets the compounds and right now its easier for someone who has no clue about explosives to make peroxides therefore its common sense that they would cause more injury's to clueless individuals hence the bad rep.

Hmmm my HMTD from what you guys say is unusually safe it is very difficult to detonate with hard blows from a hammer but is quite sensitive to flame.
Could this be from additives in my H202?
It says that it contains phosphoric acid and phenacetin and is 6% home essentials brand are these normal additives?
Am I just lucky?
Also beware peroxides are very touchy on a full moon. Jk.
This is all just my opinion.


[Edited on 20-10-2015 by shadowwinter]

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by shadowwinter]

Tdep - 19-10-2015 at 21:59

Quote: Originally posted by shadowwinter  


The other thing that I think contributes to the danger of peroxides is how easy it is to make them. I would bet big money if you could make lead azide out of readily available chemicals from the dollar store tomorrow that azide would get as bad or worse of a rep.

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by shadowwinter]


But you like... Can make lead azide from dollar store chemicals? Sure, it's not as easy as mixing three liquids to make TATP but I think you just lost your big money.

I get your point, and that certainly makes the reputation worse but I still feel they are very dangerous materials without the reputation.

shadowwinter - 19-10-2015 at 23:17

Damn I always lose bets.
I see your point even though you might have to go through a long painful and frustrating process of making all the precursors it could be done.
But then again not quite shure how.



[Edited on 20-10-2015 by shadowwinter]

Tdep - 20-10-2015 at 00:04

Ok let's see. Bleach, sodium hydroxide, alkali nitrate, sulphuric acid, lead, isopropanol and urea are all that is needed for lead azide. You probably can't get lead at the dollar store but I found mine on the ground so I think it still counts :P

Also I'm pretty sure you meant 'long and joyous process'

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by Tdep]

j_sum1 - 20-10-2015 at 00:13

Oh Tdep. You almost inspire me to make some. Almost.

shadowwinter - 20-10-2015 at 00:26

You could get lead from solder if your lucky.
Build challenge see who can make the best primary and secondary from either the dollar store or super market .
Post your results here.

shadowwinter - 20-10-2015 at 00:29

Quote: Originally posted by Tdep  
Ok let's see. Bleach, sodium hydroxide, alkali nitrate, sulphuric acid, lead, isopropanol and urea are all that is needed for lead azide. You probably can't get lead at the dollar store but I found mine on the ground so I think it still counts :P

Also I'm pretty sure you meant 'long and joyous process'

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by Tdep]
joyous hmm depends on my mood sometimes its therapeutic sometimes frustrating.

greenlight - 20-10-2015 at 00:45

Shadow, from what i have heard HMTD is more sensitive to heat/friction/shock initiation because of the weak double oxygen bonds in it's molecular structure.

If you gave one idiot mercury fulminate or lead azide and another acetone peroxide, it would probably depend on the amount of knowledge each idiot had on handling the compounds, the slightly more educated idiot in handling primaries would probably be less likely to have an accident. If they both had the same knowledge though, the idiot without the HMTD would probably feel safer.
I used to use AP as the primary charge in detonators and have since moved to Lead azide.
In my eyes, properly prepared lead azide is far superior to use than organic peroxides if you can obtain the precursors.

With HMTD, you have an explosive that needs to be used straight away to avoid decomposition, has a low ignition point and heat stability (130 degrees C I think) and is quite a high sensitivity to shock and friction.

Compare this with lead azide which is storage stable when properly manufactured, has a high heat stability (300 Degrees+ causes detonation) and is less sensitive to friction and shock from my experience as long as you watch the crystal size. I suppose it loses points because of the toxic precursors though.







[Edited on 20-10-2015 by greenlight]

shadowwinter - 20-10-2015 at 01:03

Yes though I am still very new to this I have to agree with you.
I just find it unusual my last batch of HMTD refused to detonate after multiple strikes with a hammer on a piece of wood.
The varying degrees of sensitivity must be caused by something and if it can be figured out what I believe accidents would decline.

Side note I am looking for a new primary because of the horror stories surrounding HMTD.
Must be non toxic storable and easy to synth any suggestions?

shadowwinter - 20-10-2015 at 01:07

Doesn't LA create toxic dust/fumes upon detonation?
If so is it enough of a problem to worry about?

greenlight - 20-10-2015 at 01:41

I used to have AP batches that were considerably less sensitive than others and could sustain a fairly good wack with a hammer without initiation. I think one factor that helps is temperature, the best batches were done with the temperature never rising above 5 Degrees to promote formation of the safer trimer form.

That is the problem, all the less sensitive primaries are more complicated to synth and require more advanced or toxic chemicals. You would be hard pressed to find a safer primary that is easier or as easy to produce as organic peroxides hence why everyone uses them to start.

I believe you are right, the lead azide is toxic itself and does create toxic fumes when detonated, just don't test small amounts in an enclosed space or close to you.

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by greenlight]

shadowwinter - 20-10-2015 at 02:17

For my next primary I might try to make ETN for thermal shock detonators.
They are a lot safer though less reliable or maybe DDNP.
I'm going to try my first secondary this weekend which will be ANWAX initiatiated with a 4 gram cap of HMTD in a tightly rolled paper tube these things are loud.
You really don't have an appreciation for how powerful these are until you've seen and felt them.

greenlight - 20-10-2015 at 03:13

ETN is not really a primary explosive, it is much more stable and can be rolled into a plastic explosive which you would never attempt with primaries.
If you stick a detonator in your ETN that would be your first secondary.
It acts like a primary if heated very rapidly like in a thermal shock detonator like you mentioned but other than that a detonator is needed.
Nitro-genes and Roscoe bodine have done an enormous amount of work on a DDNP synth from common paracetamol tablets which I haven't tried the updated final step yet but Nitro-genes has gotten product from it.

ecos - 20-10-2015 at 05:14

AP can be less sensitive if small quantity of water or oil is added to it. I mentioned the reference paper in this post.
I like AP coz it is very easy to synthesis , cheap , non-toxic , fast to make , powerful , ...

ETN/PETN are perfect as secondary EM. They are widely used for NG to achieve the high velocity.

nitro-genes - 20-10-2015 at 06:40

p-DDNP almost rivals AP in terms of cost, in return you get something that isn't as INSANELY friction sensitive and prone to sublimation as AP. It's synthesis is listed here:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=63...

To put the difference in friction sensitivity between the two in perspective; DDNP is considered to be still somewhat sensitive to friction as a primary, having a friction sensitivity of between 40 and 5 N. For AP it is listed as 0.01 N, this means DDNP is between 4000 and 500 times less sensitive to friction as AP...just to give you an idea...

To give a couple of real-life examples of how these properties of AP have lead to severe injury or even death:

1. AP was pressed in a drinking straw as a detonator for an ammonium nitrate based explosive. Ammonium nitrate as a tendency to cake, turning the secondary into a rock hard stuff over time. On site though, you are filled with adrenalin and when the detonator doesn't get in immediately you decide to push harder, the straw bends generating enough friction to set off the AP...end of story

2. A detonator using AP was made some time ago, but since it still looks OK you decide to use it anyway. You insert the detonator and light the fuse...end of story. Sublimation of the AP has filled the spaces in between the blackpowder grains within the fuse, basically turning it into detcord instead of a slow burning fuse.

3. AP was stored in a screwlid type container, since making it everytime is of course a lot of work. The sublimed AP immediately detonates when the lid is unscrewed...end of story

4. A small amount of AP was poured into a detonator, halfway pouring, the detonator explodes prematurely....fingers flying..jerking off and wiping your ass will never be the same. Yes...AP has been know to explode while simply pouring it from a paper. Maybe static electricity, friction or perhaps a combination of both, but there a several stories where this has happened. Make no mistake, the fact it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen.

5. AP exploded while drying outside. Yes, these peroxide bonds are so unstable that UV light is enough to break them pretty fast.

The isopicramic acid takes only 1 day to synthesize, and can be stored and handled safely. Despite the suspected toxicity of picramic acid, it is still used in certain types of hairdyes, everything is relative I guess. Same goes for the synthesis of AP: ever got stinging eyes from the drying AP? It is because of the chloroacetone formed during synthesis using HCl as catalyst. Did you know it is extremely mutagenic and has been used as a war gas? --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroacetone

If you would have isopicramic acid, if a primary is needed, all you would need to do is basically dump 1 gram of isopicramic in any mineral acid available, dump in 0.4 grams of any nitrite solution, stir a few minutes and presto...an on demand, exceptional primary in quantitative yield, in under 5 minutes. Since you need only 100 mg, you could store the other 900 mg in a plastic tube under demineralized water. No problem, DDNP can be stored for long periods of time and even safely transported that way...

Silver acetylide nitrate double salts are also a good choice, 50-100 mg suffices for ETN or PETN.

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by nitro-genes]

shadowwinter - 20-10-2015 at 12:45

Thanks for all the advice I think I might try That DDNP synth and see how it gos.
Wow I had no idea there was that much of a difference in sensitivity. Out Of curiosity why are the military detcaps so safe? Have they had many accidents involving them.

Thank you all for your time it is highly appreciated

ecos - 20-10-2015 at 14:39

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  
p-DDNP almost rivals AP in terms of cost, in return you get something that isn't as INSANELY friction sensitive and prone to sublimation as AP. It's synthesis is listed here:
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=63...

To put the difference in friction sensitivity between the two in perspective; DDNP is considered to be still somewhat sensitive to friction as a primary, having a friction sensitivity of between 40 and 5 N. For AP it is listed as 0.01 N, this means DDNP is between 4000 and 500 times less sensitive to friction as AP...just to give you an idea...

To give a couple of real-life examples of how these properties of AP have lead to severe injury or even death:

1. AP was pressed in a drinking straw as a detonator for an ammonium nitrate based explosive. Ammonium nitrate as a tendency to cake, turning the secondary into a rock hard stuff over time. On site though, you are filled with adrenalin and when the detonator doesn't get in immediately you decide to push harder, the straw bends generating enough friction to set off the AP...end of story

2. A detonator using AP was made some time ago, but since it still looks OK you decide to use it anyway. You insert the detonator and light the fuse...end of story. Sublimation of the AP has filled the spaces in between the blackpowder grains within the fuse, basically turning it into detcord instead of a slow burning fuse.

3. AP was stored in a screwlid type container, since making it everytime is of course a lot of work. The sublimed AP immediately detonates when the lid is unscrewed...end of story

4. A small amount of AP was poured into a detonator, halfway pouring, the detonator explodes prematurely....fingers flying..jerking off and wiping your ass will never be the same. Yes...AP has been know to explode while simply pouring it from a paper. Maybe static electricity, friction or perhaps a combination of both, but there a several stories where this has happened. Make no mistake, the fact it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen.

5. AP exploded while drying outside. Yes, these peroxide bonds are so unstable that UV light is enough to break them pretty fast.

The isopicramic acid takes only 1 day to synthesize, and can be stored and handled safely. Despite the suspected toxicity of picramic acid, it is still used in certain types of hairdyes, everything is relative I guess. Same goes for the synthesis of AP: ever got stinging eyes from the drying AP? It is because of the chloroacetone formed during synthesis using HCl as catalyst. Did you know it is extremely mutagenic and has been used as a war gas? --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroacetone

If you would have isopicramic acid, if a primary is needed, all you would need to do is basically dump 1 gram of isopicramic in any mineral acid available, dump in 0.4 grams of any nitrite solution, stir a few minutes and presto...an on demand, exceptional primary in quantitative yield, in under 5 minutes. Since you need only 100 mg, you could store the other 900 mg in a plastic tube under demineralized water. No problem, DDNP can be stored for long periods of time and even safely transported that way...

Silver acetylide nitrate double salts are also a good choice, 50-100 mg suffices for ETN or PETN.

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by nitro-genes]


I totally agree that AP is not the best primary but it has a lot of advantages as stated in this post.
Primaries should be handled only by experts.
I always store AP under water to avoid point 3.
point 1 is a mistake because he didn't use a metal casing !

DDNP seems not that easy to be made compared to AP but I would give it a try.

If you want to be more safe you can use chlorates as primary. I found some patents on google (Primary detonating explosive US 2127106 A) that use KClO3 with other additives to form a primary which has better sensitivity and thermal characteristics
I am not sure if Armstrong mixture can be used as primary !

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by ecos]

[Edited on 20-10-2015 by ecos]

greenlight - 20-10-2015 at 18:25

Nice writeup on the AP sensitivity and accidents Nitro, really puts it into perspective.

Shadowwinter, the military detonators are made in a factory remotely not up close by hand I believe. They use aluminium casings and lead azide as the primary which would be pressed remotely.
The military caps have the contents pressed and are also completely sealed up as well so nothing can move inside.
They are mostly electrical initiated making them even safer than fused caps as well.

So a combination of good grade safer explosives, remote pressing and manufacture, sealed design and electrical ignition all make them safer to handle and use.


[Edited on 21-10-2015 by greenlight]

ecos - 21-10-2015 at 02:50

Remote pressing ? I like this idea. I never thought of it.

I found a video for pressing blasting cap using special tool :) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkfiKlYDxno

nitro-genes - 21-10-2015 at 04:40

"I totally agree that AP is not the best primary but it has a lot of advantages as stated in this post".

Apart from the fact it is easy to make, name one

"Primaries should be handled only by experts."

After some experts and professionals lost their fingers due to AP, experts consider AP to dangerous to handle.

"I always store AP under water to avoid point 3."

Not sure about this one, but IIRC there was someone on roguesci a long time ago, who actually tested how efficient water was in stopping sublimation and surprisingly...AP still sublimed even when kept under water

"point 1 is a mistake because he didn't use a metal casing !"

What metal casing would you use? Some metals, like copper may be very dangerous in combination with AP. To my knowledge it has never been published, patented or otherwise studied what incompatibilities and best conditions for AP are for use in detonators. Why do you think this is?


"If you want to be more safe you can use chlorates as primary. I found some patents on google (Primary detonating explosive US 2127106 A) that use KClO3 with other additives to form a primary which has better sensitivity and thermal characteristics"

Apart from the fact that sulfur nitride is pretty hard and dangerous to synthesize, chlorates aren't very useful as a primary for a number of reasons. One is their incompatibility with acids, forming chlorine dioxide, which ignites with almost anything organic. Second is that, rarely, oxidizer/fuel mixtures produce enough peak pressure to reliably initiate secondaries. Chlorate mixtures produce maybe few kbars peak pressure, DDNP about 240 kbars for example.

The example with sulfur nitride is different, since the sulfur nitride itself adds a lot of energy itself apart from being a fuel. Maybe you were contemplating to mix chlorates and AP to desensitize the AP, but whatever you do, don't mix organic peroxides with anything! AP with potassium chlorate WILL explode in storage or upon mixing due to trace acids present from the AP synthesis!

"I am not sure if Armstrong mixture can be used as primary!"

Mixtures like armstrongs are among the most sensitive compo's around. Its quite a challenge to dry-mix small amounts of KClO3 and red P without explosion.

[Edited on 21-10-2015 by nitro-genes]

ecos - 21-10-2015 at 15:50

Hi Nitro-genes, Thanks a lot for the info you provided in your last thread. I wasn't aware of many of them.

I think chlorate/perchlorate mixtures would have enough power to initiate ETN ! no need for 240Kbars. this would do the job after that.

I have the aim now to find a better primer rather than AP but I have a real problem to find concentrated Nitric acid/nitrate salts . I can get them in small quantities.

nitro-genes - 22-10-2015 at 06:40

No problem, I've had a close encounter with organic peroxides myself a long time ago. Information on fora like this didn't exist back then. Suffice to say, I'm very lucky to have all fingers and limbs still attached...

I'm actually surprised you are able to find and buy hydrogen peroxide and perchlorates, but no nitrates. Over here >3% hydrogen peroxide is no longer sold in general stores, and asking for a liter of 30% at the pharmacy will raise some eyebrows and they will ask some questions what you need it for. I heard some kid was got a visit from the police because he ordered 30% hydrogen peroxide. :o

Anyway, for example...you could try NPEDs based on ETN, in which case you don't need a primary at all --> (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=24817

Another composition worth mentioning is 60% potassium picrate/40% potassium perchlorate (dont use chlorates insetad!). With strong cap confinement I have no doubt it could set off ETN. This composition is chemically very stable, and almost insensitive towards friction or impact. Picric acid is easy to make, even in small quantities. Just search the forum.

PHILOU Zrealone - 22-10-2015 at 09:19

Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  


Another composition worth mentioning is 60% potassium picrate/40% potassium perchlorate (dont use chlorates insetad!). With strong cap confinement I have no doubt it could set off ETN. This composition is chemically very stable, and almost insensitive towards friction or impact. Picric acid is easy to make, even in small quantities. Just search the forum.

Why not with KClO3?

This would make it close to KClO3/Na benzoate (or NaClO3/K benzoate detonating wistle mix of Dornier) and to the hypothetically more powerful mixes with nitrobenzoates, dinitrobenzoates or trinitrophenates instead of the benzoates...

K picrate/KClO3 must be stable to a certain impact and heat level since there is no reason for sensitization of the KClO3 by acid traces or NH3 (the two main dangers with chlorates).

By the way, the S4N4 with chlorate patent is a good idea to use the detonability of S4N4 and to boost the energy output by burning down the sulfide as SO2.

--> To make things even more detonating/sensitive; one may go further and use:
-detonating chlorates (Hg(ClO3)2 or AgClO3) or chlorites (Hg(ClO2)2 or AgClO2).
-Maybe some permanganates like Hg(MnO4)2 and AgMnO4...
-Some detonating heavy metal nitroformiates (Hg(C(NO2)3)2, AgC(NO2)3)

Mercury is interesting because it will get more oxydizer per weight being bivalent and because HgO is unstable above a certain temperature and set O2 free!
HgO -heat-> Hg(g) + 1/2 O2(g)
But also gaseous Hg... :(


[Edited on 22-10-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

ecos - 22-10-2015 at 15:26

@nitro-genes.
It is a problem in my country to buy any nitrate salt since nitrate=explosives to many
I can buy AN in small amounts (~2 Kg) from fertilizers stores. It always have a lot of impurities and costs more than 1 liter of H2O2 with 50% concentration. I know that sounds wired but this is my country !

H2O2 with 30% will not be a problem if you mention that you use it for hair bleaching !
I know a chemical store where I can buy 50% concentration without a problem. Acetone is hard to find with high concentration.

after reading your post again and again I would say I am convinced to stop using AP and find a better alternative.
I am interested to read more about chlorate since I became fan of propellent more than explosives but anyway I found two patents for chlorate as detonator :
1-Detonator composition US 1462075 A:
70% to 90% of nitrostarch + 10% to of potassium chlorate or ammonium perchlorate + 1% to 10% of Urea
This has same strength as a detonating cap of mercury fulminate of what is calle No. 6 grade
2-Non-primary detonators WO 2000026603 A1 (same as PHILOU Zrealone last post)
5 to 15% potassium picrate, 5 to 15% potassium perchlorate and 70 to 90% PETN
since PETN exists it would be strong detonator.

[Edited on 22-10-2015 by ecos]

nitro-genes - 22-10-2015 at 17:03

Hair bleaching huh... with 50% you'll do more than just bleaching your hair. :) And yes rocketry can be pretty cool as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxjSMej7wZg

@Philou:

Agreed, a mix of pure potassium picrate (without traces of free picric acid) and chlorates, pressed on thoroughly bicarb neutralized and recrystallized ETN should be no problem at all. The chlorate mix will probably even accelerate somewhat faster than with perc. Chlorates are avoided in pyrotechnics whenever possible for a reason though and somehow the shelf life of many compositions containing chlorates and sulfur is pretty limited and are considered dangerous to store :)

The sulfur nitride is interesting indeed, it is one of these energetic compounds that has been mentioned many times, but for some reason I've never read any actual hands on experiences about this compound in energetics related fora, perhaps since it requires disulfur dichloride (a rather high profile chemical to have at home) and a good lab setup. Being patented says little about the long term stability of a S4N4/chlorate mix, for instance, is there a chance sulfur oxides/acids can be formed from direct/indirect hydrolysis with moisture? Interesting from an experimental point of view though...

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