Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Short question / quick answer - Thread

Just a quick question.
Will 2 grams of "X" explosive, with lets assume its VoD is 4000m/s, have the same power or about the same power as 1 gram of "Z" explosive with VoD 8000m/s ?

[Edited on 27-1-2018 by underground]

Theoretically, Z would be twice as good especially having more shattering power (brisance). Explosives with VOD 4000m/s and below have more of a pushing and heaving effect while the high VOD explosives have more of a shattering and fragmenting effect on objects they are in contact with so they really are two separate cases.

Realistically, differences in flame temperature, heat of explosion, brisance, oxygen balance, theoretical max density, etc, between the two explosives would also come into play so it quickly becomes complicated.

Morgan - 28-1-2018 at 19:06

Any suggestions of where to buy a filtered high voltage DC power supply something around 20-30,000 volts and 1 milliamp or so?

Rocinante - 29-1-2018 at 03:50

The shattering effect on steel targets will be about an order of magnitude higher (5-10×) with 8000 m/s explosive than with 4000 m/s. Not sure about 2 g amounts, though. You're talking the difference between high end PETN/ETN and EGDN/NC plastic and melt cast ETN (250 - 300 kbar) and slightly more powerful ammonals or pressed primary explosives like TATP (~ 50 kbar). Most inert/RDX/PETN/ETN plastics made at home will likely max out in the 7700 m/s range.

greenlight - 29-1-2018 at 09:25

Your correct about the PE's with inerts.
I use PETN plastic with about 15% binder and plasticizer with density @ 1.44 and I calculate VOD to be around the 7000m/s mark.

Rosco Bodine - 30-1-2018 at 00:17

@ nitro-genes

Some more thought has been given to the reduction in alkaline condition and has led me to consider a system using Magnesium based salts. Magnesium hydroxide in water has a solution pH of 10.3.

Glycine will inhibit precipitation of Manganese hydroxide in an alkaline system up to about a pH of 10. So I am thinking a reduction of magnesium picrate or perhaps sodium picrate could be done using magnesium ascorbate. A manganous glycinate salt could be used as the reducing catalyst, with an additonal molar equivalent of glycine added to be available to neutralize the manganese +III and form the transient manganese + III (tris) glycinate from the oxidized manganous + II (bis) glycinate.

Whether this buffering scheme works will depend on the ability of the soluble glycine chelated manganese to still be useful as a reducing agent that can be recycled back to the +II form by reacting with the gradually added magnesium ascorbate.

In the alternative it may be that no reduction catalyst is needed if the magnesium ascorbate is found to be active in reducing magnesium picrate or perhaps basic magnesium picrate directly.

The manganous biglycinate would form in situ via double decomposition of manganous sulfate and magnesium biglycinate

These reagents are OTC nutritional supplement items

https://www.vitacost.com/now-foods-magnesium-biglycinate-pow...

https://www.vitacost.com/now-foods-magnesium-ascorbate-powde...

https://www.vitacost.com/now-foods-glycine-pure-powder

https://www.vitacost.com/now-foods-magnesium-oxide-pure-powd...

https://www.vitacost.com/phillips-genuine-milk-of-magnesia-s...

[Edited on 1/30/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

underground - 3-2-2018 at 12:24

Anyone who has already tried to make both ETN and PETN, which one can easier be nitrated ?

[Edited on 3-2-2018 by underground]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 3-2-2018 at 12:47

PETN is easily steps , faster steps and yields are better on the weight fo acids. Almost 2x more advantageous.

underground - 3-2-2018 at 15:55

So there is no point of wasting chemicals making ETN while PETN have better yields and more power. The only disadvantage is the P. price compare to E.

[Edited on 3-2-2018 by underground]

Bert - 3-2-2018 at 16:01

In USA, you can buy pure erythritol as a diet sweetener by the pound, no questions asked. Pentaerythritol is harder to find.

Looking at the industrial manufacturing processes and base materials involved, I would THINK PETN should be the cheaper chemical in bulk?

[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Bert]

joseph6355 - 3-2-2018 at 22:24

In USA, you can buy pure erythritol as a diet sweetener by the pound, no questions asked. Pentaerythritol is harder to find.

Looking at the industrial manufacturing processes and base materials involved, I would THINK PETN should be the cheaper chemical in bulk?

[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Bert]

True. There is no substantial use for PE that would justify it being sold OTC.
Sure, it has its uses besides energetics, but a common person would never need it. Erythritol on the other hand is the new mainstream sweetener that everybody wants.
The problem with synthesizing ETN is that it takes big amounts of nitric acid to fully nitrate, and using nitrating salts makes a mess, forcing you to add more sulfuric acid in order to dissolve it and allow you to add the rest of the salt. Not to mention that the yield gets very compromised when using nitrating salts.

[Edited on 4/2/18 by joseph6355]

greenlight - 3-2-2018 at 23:33

I personally prefer PETN synthesized with 70% nitric and recrystallised from acetone. Very smooth noyration with good yields.
I think whatever is more convenient is better they both end up with four nitrate ester groups.
The only real differences I can think of is that the ETN is slightly more sensitive I have read.
PETN has a very small critical diameter hence its use in detcord I think.
ETN has a positive oxygen balance to consume binders if used in specialty compositions.

joseph6355 - 3-2-2018 at 23:43

I personally prefer PETN synthesized with 70% nitric and recrystallised from acetone. Very smooth noyration with good yields.
I think whatever is more convenient is better they both end up with four nitrate ester groups.
The only real differences I can think of is that the ETN is slightly more sensitive I have read.
PETN has a very small critical diameter hence its use in detcord I think.
ETN has a positive oxygen balance to consume binders if used in specialty compositions.

ETN has about 2/3 of the friction sensitivity of PETN. I think that if it was plasticized, it would improve its safety greatly.

greenlight - 4-2-2018 at 00:25

Yes, the inert lubricating effects would definitely reduce the sensitivity and make for safer handling..

underground - 4-2-2018 at 06:46

Due to ETN's positive OB, woult it be a better option with plasticizer than PETN ?

The problem with synthesizing ETN is that it takes big amounts of nitric acid to fully nitrate, and using nitrating salts makes a mess, forcing you to add more sulfuric acid in order to dissolve it and allow you to add the rest of the salt. Not to mention that the yield gets very compromised when using nitrating salts.

[Edited on 4/2/18 by joseph6355]

Whenever tried to dissolve E into SA, yields goes down. Looks like it works better by just adding it as a very fine powder into the mixture.

[Edited on 4-2-2018 by underground]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-2-2018 at 07:17

Of course. Very dry E in very powder form is base for adding to Acids. For high yield. His sale distribution form is wet. Against it, PE is possible in first step dissolve in HNO3 65 (humidity is unimportant) and instantly after disolving adding as the drop into H2SO4 95. Yields are maximal. Adding E in same method is yield zero.

greenlight - 4-2-2018 at 08:21

I don't think you would notice much difference between PETN and ETN plastic explosive but yeah, the ETN has a little left over oxygen to give out which could go to combustible binders/plasticizers.
PETN is not that oxygen deficient (-10%) anyway.
I would have to get out the calculator to find OB% ETN and it is late at night (will do it tomorrow).

I don't think it will be that large of a number.

[Edited on 4-2-2018 by greenlight]

Hennig Brand - 4-2-2018 at 08:32

Putty explosives are generally for shattering, but of course are good for anything, PETN putties are superior for this by at least 10% IIRC. If you are using your plastic explosive to remove stumps the extra oxygen from ETN might be more useful, but that would be quite a waste of an expensive explosive. This has been discussed a lot earlier in this thread, it is so long now I would need to search. The oxygen fuel reactions are much slower and don't add much of anything to the shattering effect, it is about proximity of the atoms, density. Molecular explosives are more powerful because the mixing is uniform, atoms close together.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 4-2-2018 at 09:23

ETN has OB + 5,3 Better than PETN OB - 10. PIB - 342,2 OIL - 345. (calc. on CO2 )
ETN + 10% binder = OB - 29,59. PETN + 10% binder = OB - 43,36

[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Attachment: OB 4.0en.rar (283kB)
This file has been downloaded 391 times

[Edited on 4-2-2018 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

greenlight - 4-2-2018 at 21:37

Hennig brand is right, you would get performance increase by mixing an oxygen deficient explosive with an oxygen rich explosive to bring the balance closer to zero (like TNT and ammonium nitrate in ammatol).

The extra oxygen combined with something combustible like binders, plasticizers will just create an afterburn efect and a slightly more visible fireball.

The ETN would be better than PETN if you using metal powder as a fuel to create a slight thermobaric effect.

joseph6355 - 7-2-2018 at 09:13

Since you guys are talking about oxygen balance, I would like to know how to do the math and come up with an answer on how much N2, H2O and CO2 would be generated from the decomposition of the explosive material, like this guy on this thread: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9201#p...

greenlight - 7-2-2018 at 21:48

Here is one way I have learnt of calculating OB that works for CHNO explosives:

OB% = 1600 ÷ molecular wt of explosive [o - (2c + h/2)]

o is oxygen, c is carbon and h represents hydrogen.
If the end result is negative, the explosive is underoxidized and the reverse os true for a positive number.

Heres two examples:

RDX ; C3H6N6O6

Carbon = 3 × 12.01
Hydrogen = 6 × 1.008
Nitrogen = 6 × 14.008
Oxygen = 6 × 16.00
Total molecular weight RDX = 222.126

OB = 6 - (2×3) - (6÷2) = -3 × 1600 ÷ 222.126 = -21.61% for RDX (underoxidized)

PETN ; C5H8N4O12

Molecular weight PETN = (12.01×5) + (1.008×8) + (14.008×4) + (16.00×12) = 316.145

OB = 12 - (2×5) - (8÷2) = -2 × 1600 ÷ 316.145 = -10.12% for PETN ( underoxidized)

Explosives with a balance of 0 or slightly overoxidized are good. TNT is a good explosive because of its melt casting ability and good VOD but it is severely underoxidized with a lot of excess carbon and carbon monoxide unused. This is why there is a noticeably black cloud of detonation products with TNT.

greenlight - 7-2-2018 at 22:18

I just noticed you asked how to predict how much products will result from a detonation of a certain explosive. There is a set of rules for this for CHNO explosives I have taken from explosives engineering (Cooper).

1. All the nitrogen forms N2.
2. All the hydrogen is burned to H2O.
3. Any oxygen left after H2O formation burns carbon to CO.
4. Any oxygen left after CO formation burns CO to CO2.
5. Any oxygen left after CO2 formation forms O2.
6. Traces of NOx are always formed.

Here is the example for RDX;

C3H6N6O6 > 3C + 6H + 6N + 6O

a. 6N > 3 N2
b. 6H + 3O > 3H2O (3 O remaining)
c. 3C + 3O > 3CO (all the O is used up now and no CO2 is formed)

C3H6N6O6 > 3H2O + 3CO + 3N2

There is CO remaining which proved the OB equation on the last post that RDX is underoxidized.

joseph6355 - 8-2-2018 at 13:10

I just noticed you asked how to predict how much products will result from a detonation of a certain explosive. There is a set of rules for this for CHNO explosives I have taken from explosives engineering (Cooper).

1. All the nitrogen forms N2.
2. All the hydrogen is burned to H2O.
3. Any oxygen left after H2O formation burns carbon to CO.
4. Any oxygen left after CO formation burns CO to CO2.
5. Any oxygen left after CO2 formation forms O2.
6. Traces of NOx are always formed.

Here is the example for RDX;

C3H6N6O6 > 3C + 6H + 6N + 6O

a. 6N > 3 N2
b. 6H + 3O > 3H2O (3 O remaining)
c. 3C + 3O > 3CO (all the O is used up now and no CO2 is formed)

C3H6N6O6 > 3H2O + 3CO + 3N2

There is CO remaining which proved the OB equation on the last post that RDX is underoxidized.

Seems pretty easy.
How would the carbon fully oxidize?
If its not too much to ask, can you give me examples of some oxidizers and fuels? I know that aluminum can be used as a fuel, and ammonium nitrate as an oxidizer (because it is OB+). What other EM can I use as fuel or oxygen sources?

[Edited on 8/2/18 by joseph6355]

Bert - 8-2-2018 at 13:38

Quote:

What other EM can I use as fuel or oxygen sources?

Answered litteraly, that's going to be a very long list. Would this be an acceptable re statement, more or less meeting the intent of your question?

Quote:

Which single chemicals, themselves capable of being detonated have been COMMONLY used either as oxidizers or as fuels in explosive or propellant systems?

THAT could be answered in a reasonable space.

Examples?

Oxidizer: Trinitroglycerin

Fuel: Nitrocellulose

System: Double based propellants

Oxidizer: Ammonium nitrate

Fuel: Dinitrotoluenes

System: ammonium nitrate explosives

[Edited on 8-2-2018 by Bert]

[Edited on 8-2-2018 by Bert]

joseph6355 - 8-2-2018 at 13:41

Quote:

What other EM can I use as fuel or oxygen sources?

Answered litteraly, that's going to be a very long list. Would this be an acceptable re statement, more or less meeting the intent of your question?

Quote:

Which single chemicals, themselves capable of being detonated have been COMMONLY used either as oxidizers or as fuels in explosive or propellant systems?

THAT could be answered in a reasonable space.

Yeah you're right. I should start thinking before writing something.

Not only commonly, but also viable for the home chemist.
I work at mc donalds.

Bert - 8-2-2018 at 14:03

Cheer up, there is life after fast foods. My head manager got as far as their management, before becoming a vegetarian and full time pyro and physical theatre/lighting professional. He is much happier now, and can tell you amusing and interesting facts about McDonalds, like "in a food fight, the guy with the tartar sauce gun ALLWAYS wins".

May I direct your attention to this thread?

strategies in designing ideal explosives thread

[Edited on 8-2-2018 by Bert]

joseph6355 - 8-2-2018 at 14:37

Cheer up, there is life after fast foods. My head manager got as far as their management, before becoming a vegetarian and full time pyro and physical theatre/lighting professional. He is much happier now, and can tell you amusing and interesting facts about McDonalds, like "in a food fight, the guy with the tartar sauce gun ALLWAYS wins".

May I direct your attention to this thread?

strategies in designing ideal explosives thread

[Edited on 8-2-2018 by Bert]

Nice thread, looks like its exactly what I want.

Regarding mc donalds, I don't think I wanna be working there much longer. There is so much nastiness in the food that it makes me sick. I used to work in the kitchen, but now I'm just the bridge between the girl taking orders and the people in the kitchen, much better. I still feel sick when I smell the fat coming from the burgers and other stuff.

FeedMe94 - 8-2-2018 at 14:55

Hello , id like to ask what is the best way to dry some KCLO4. Its stored for a long time and has enough humidity

Bert - 8-2-2018 at 15:36

Potassium perchlorate isn't hygroscopic in my experience. I have never needed to dry commercially produced material.

Where did this perchlorate come from?

greenlight - 8-2-2018 at 20:45

I have never needed to dry it either. Are you sure its not just clumping, I had a batch of perc once that really liked to clump and the stuff I have now is quite free flowing.

[Edited on 9-2-2018 by greenlight]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 9-2-2018 at 00:26

Feedme, your salt is not pure KClO4. You try test in water by 15 Celsia. KClO4 solubility = 1,5g /100ml H2O. NaClO4 solubility = 209g /100ml H2O. You can try your KClO4, for example 3 grams get into 100ml H2O. If will all solubled, is not pure KClO4. But the mix between both. Or even some else compounds can be in this.

joseph6355 - 11-2-2018 at 19:20

Can you nitrate Pyridine?
I was wondering if it would be possible to knock off all of those hydrogen molecules and place NO2 groups there by means of an aromatic electrophilic nitration. I don't know if pyridine would oxidize or not, wikipedia doesn't say much about it, but it could be sulfonated first and the respectively carbon positions in which the RSO3− groups were attached would get replaced by the NO2.

nitro-genes - 14-2-2018 at 07:37

IIRC, the direct nitration of pyridine is possible only using extremely high temperatures due to the pyridine (or pyridinium ion) not being very activated. Nitration of pyridine-n-oxide is more easy, producing the 4 nitro isomer (Attachment).

https://www.oc-praktikum.de/nop/en/instructions/pdf/1004_en....

From what I read, it is not possible to nitrate even the n-oxide to trinitropyridine n-oxide, although seems possible using an alternative synthesis from dinitroethanol:

Attachment: 2,4,6-Trinitropyridine and Related Compounds,.pdf (460kB)
This file has been downloaded 519 times

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is an idea I have been toying with for some time, any thoughts about this?

The piria reaction uses bisulfites at a pH of about 6-6.5 to reduce a nitrogroup to an amine. In some cases, a sulfonic acid group is introduced to the nucleus as well, desribely for nitrophenols in meta position.

I was therefor wondering what products would result if the piria reaction would be applied to picric acid instead? Bisulfite is a pretty decent nucleophile (Couldn't find any measure of this compared to CN-
or HS- though), would it be able to attack the picric in meta (position 3) and introduce a sulfonic group upon autooxidation of the presumed meisenheimercomplex? When I did a quick test, adding a spatule of sodium picrate to some bisulfite solution at a pH of 6.5 and heated it slightly, very quickly a very strong red-orange colour was produced. So it seems something is happening at least. When some HCl was added a dark orange brown developed. Might be interesting since, unlike thee reaction of picric with HS- and CN-, the reaction with bisulfite has never been characterized AFAIK.

Attachment: Piria reaction.pdf (832kB)
This file has been downloaded 486 times

[Edited on 14-2-2018 by nitro-genes]

Rosco Bodine - 14-2-2018 at 11:43

Bisulfite is one of the reducing agents I had predicted would likely produce a picramate from a picrate. It would probably work even better with an added mole equivalent of NaOH to convert the bisulfite to the normal sulfite.

[Edited on 2/15/2018 by Rosco Bodine]

Rosco Bodine - 14-2-2018 at 16:29

@ Bert No it was in reply to nitro-genes describing a red orange color from reaction of sodium bisulfite and sodium picrate, which probably produces sodium picramate.

Vomaturge - 22-2-2018 at 17:47

The compound phenol sounds like it should be an alcohol. Apparently, it can form esters, like phenyl acetate:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenyl_acetate
So why doesn't the hydroxyl group on phenol/picric acid get replaced with a nitrate group during a nitration? My guesses would be
1. Because phenol "carbolic acid" and picric acid are acids, and thus do not become esters easily.
2. Because it turns to picric first, and the nitro groups take up too much space to allow HNO3 in to react with the hydroxyl group.
3. To make phenol acetate, you apparently need acetic anhydride. So does that mean that TNP mononitrate might possibly be formed using dinitrogen pentoxide? Thanks.

ninhydric1 - 22-2-2018 at 17:54

The hydrogen on the hydroxyl group of phenol is slightly acidic due to the electron delocalization of the benzene ring, so a nitration on the hydroxyl group is similar to trying to chlorinate the hydroxyl of acetic acid with HCl; a strong acid won't react with a weak acid.

AN Based explosives

EdsonEGDN - 13-3-2018 at 09:44

Hello, I think some of you may have seen some of my tests on YouTube, I study chemistry and I have a good knowledge in the field of Explosives.

I am here for suggestions of compositions based on Ammonium Nitrate ( AN ) , I have tested many of them
ANNMAl
Ammonal Versions ( With Mg , Sulfur , charcoal powder , sugar )
AN + Mg powder
ANNAPHAL ( AN , Naphthalene and aluminum Powder )
ANFO versions ( ANFO + Al , ANFO + 2% Zn powder , ANFO + C )
AN + Ethylene glycol
AN + Glycerin
AN + Sulfur
AN + C
ANUNAL ( AN , Urea Nitrate and Aluminum powder )
AN + TATP
AN + Hexamine and with Al powder
AN + sugar
AN + Urea
AN + Nitric Esters + Al powder
AN + H2O2 Water gel ( Stable Mix )
The top 10 better compositions are 1° AN + Nitric Esters + Al , 2° ANNMAl , 3° AN +H2O2 Water gel , 4° AN + TATP , 5° ANNAPHAL , 6° ANUNAl , 7° Ammonal + C , 8° AN + Ethylene glycol , 9°ANFO + Al and 10° AN +Hexamine .

Tell my any other Composition AN based ((( without Nitric Esters !!! or Nitrocompounds ))))) !

[Edited on 13-3-2018 by EdsonEGDN]

[Edited on 13-3-2018 by EdsonEGDN]

Bert - 13-3-2018 at 10:52

If you have advanced knowledge of explosives, why would you need to ask?

EdsonEGDN - 13-3-2018 at 11:08

If you have advanced knowledge of explosives, why would you need to ask?

It is always welcome new suggestions, of course someone with advanced knowledge about tested something that I have not had in mind yet and can be quite interesting for me .
I have many ideas but I want to hear what others have in mind, who knows is something I never thought of before, with Ammonium Nitrate the possibility is almost infinite!

Sigmatropic - 13-3-2018 at 13:50

I seem to remember some axt(number I don't remember) on at least two publicly available online platforms demonstrating ANNMSA (SA=sulfuric acid) and IIRC ANNMAlSA (no idea how the Al did not react with the acid, maybe my memory is failing me) had a much improved vod as witnessed in a metal plate test. These mixtures preformed slightly less than NANM (NA=nitric acid) which these previously mentioned mixes make except they contain inert ammonium sulfate.
On what basis did you make your top 10 list?

EdsonEGDN - 13-3-2018 at 15:32

Quote: Originally posted by Sigmatropic

I seem to remember some axt(number I don't remember) on at least two publicly available online platforms demonstrating ANNMSA (SA=sulfuric acid) and IIRC ANNMAlSA (no idea how the Al did not react with the acid, maybe my memory is failing me) had a much improved vod as witnessed in a metal plate test. These mixtures preformed slightly less than NANM (NA=nitric acid) which these previously mentioned mixes make except they contain inert ammonium sulfate.
On what basis did you make your top 10 list?

In the power ( Brisance ) and noise of explosions in my tests, I like to compare so I'm sure of the power of each one to another Composition .

NeonPulse - 13-3-2018 at 16:29

How about simple ANFO? AN/ kerosene, Diesel or heating oil. Soybean oil is said to work also but requires a long soak time(1 week) there are several AN/ hexamine combinations too. Also adding laundry powders to some compositions can help the power. Have you read this?
https://archive.org/details/Kitchen_Improvised_Fertilizer_Ex...
There’s a few in there you may be interested in.

Bert - 13-3-2018 at 17:12

Ammonium nitrate/gum spirits of turpentine (old fashioned turpentine, distilled from pine stumps, etc.)

Ammonium nitrate/DMSO or other fuels capable of quickly and completely dispersing through solid crystals of AN.

Ammonium nitrate/trichloroethylene

Ammonium nitrate dissolved in water with a fuel such as ascorbic acid, erythorbic acid, alginic acid or their salts and then dried.

Ammonium nitrate/hydrazine (Yo, astrolite?)

Ammonium nitrate/amine, such as dimethylamine, ethylamine, etc.

EdsonEGDN - 14-3-2018 at 07:53

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

How about simple ANFO? AN/ kerosene, Diesel or heating oil. Soybean oil is said to work also but requires a long soak time(1 week) there are several AN/ hexamine combinations too. Also adding laundry powders to some compositions can help the power. Have you read this?
https://archive.org/details/Kitchen_Improvised_Fertilizer_Ex...
There’s a few in there you may be interested in.

Nice ! Are you the guy from Canal AllChemystery?

[Edited on 14-3-2018 by EdsonEGDN]

EdsonEGDN - 14-3-2018 at 08:02

I am going to try in next week intermolecular mixtures, AN samples with ammonium benzoate, benzoamine, benzonitrile, ammonium acetate, ammonium phenolate and mainly ammonium thiocyanate it can give directly into the molecule Oxidant of AN the energy and reactivity it needs to ensure high VOD .

Gellatinizing power of NC

Bender84 - 14-3-2018 at 10:01

Hello World,

Can someone explain to me (or point me to a source where I can find such information) what are the critical parameters that define the gelling power (if used with NG/ EDGN mixture as the "solvent") of nitrocellulose and how - if at all - is this characteristic related to viscosity of the NC solution in e.g. acetone (i.e. is it justified to asses that high viscosity NC will give stiff gel? Or these properties run parallel but are not directly related, so one cannot predict the gelling power based on the viscosity of the solution)? I really couldn't find any in depth info about the gellation power of the NC beside the information given in Naoum's book.

Thanks in advance,

MineMan - 14-3-2018 at 10:56

Bert, I think Edson is just like me, he is so overcome by passion that he asks others because he wants no stone unturned, and I admire him for that.

Edson, I am sending you a U2U.

EdsonEGDN - 14-3-2018 at 15:13

Quote: Originally posted by MineMan

Bert, I think Edson is just like me, he is so overcome by passion that he asks others because he wants no stone unturned, and I admire him for that.

Edson, I am sending you a U2U.

U2U Answered

joseph6355 - 30-3-2018 at 19:44

How hard is it to concentrate 53 % nitric acid to azeotropic concentration (68 %)?
I don't know how to set up my distillation apparatus and the fractionating column for this specific procedure.

CobaltChloride - 31-3-2018 at 10:40

Not too hard. The set up looks like the one in the picture. Collect the fraction from about 118 degrees C to 124 degrees C. This is your azeotropic nitric acid. I think you could also do a simple distillation here if you go slowly.

joseph6355 - 31-3-2018 at 19:14

Not too hard. The set up looks like the one in the picture. Collect the fraction from about 118 degrees C to 124 degrees C. This is your azeotropic nitric acid. I think you could also do a simple distillation here if you go slowly.

Thank you for responding.

Have you done this before?
Sorry to abuse your good will, but what are the approximate yield?

I'm asking because azeotropic nitric acid got very hard to get here where I live, but for some reason the 53 % concentration is very, very cheap and sold OTC with no limit for how much you can buy.
I'm not going to buy gallons of it, but instead I want to make it more economically viable to experiment since I work at a shitty job and most of my money goes to pay my college bills.
Realistically, much much 68% nitric acid would be obtained from a 5 liters bottle of the 53 % one? I'm not talking about theoretical yields though.

greenlight - 1-4-2018 at 05:37

Do you have access to 98% Sulfuric acid?
If so you could use the same distillation setup with a water-cooled liebig condenser and a 2:1 ratio of H2SO4/HNO3 in the distilling flask.

The sulphuric acid will hold the water and around 90% red fuming nitric acid will distill over.
You can then dilute this to 70% or whatever concentration you want by addition of water.

CobaltChloride - 1-4-2018 at 05:52

Thank you for responding.

I haven't done it yet as I don't need to in order to get nitric acid, but the procedure was taken from NileRed's video on making azeotropic nitric acid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBeo8nww21g&t=312s). More specifically, from the purification step at 5:25. You'd theoretically get about 3.68 liters of acid after distillation.

[Edited on 1-4-2018 by CobaltChloride]

CobaltChloride - 1-4-2018 at 06:02

Do you have access to 98% Sulfuric acid?
If so you could use the same distillation setup with a water-cooled liebig condenser and a 2:1 ratio of H2SO4/HNO3 in the distilling flask.

The sulphuric acid will hold the water and around 90% red fuming nitric acid will distill over.
You can then dilute this to 70% or whatever concentration you want by addition of water.

This method has the disadvantage of producing nitric acid of less accurate concentration though.

joseph6355 - 1-4-2018 at 07:23

I thought about that. Honestly it isn't very economically efficient since 98% h2so4 isn't cheap.
I'm also kind of scare of the fuming nitric acid. Its very corrosive and almost everything it touches catches on fire instantly, including my cheap gloves that are rated for common acids.

Thank you for responding.

I watched the video before posting the question.
Are you certain that I'll get 68% nitric at the end flask?
Thinking long term, its better for me to buy good quality glassware that will allow me to concentrate the acid instead of buying directly.
As I said, 30 USD for 5 liters of 53% that will yield somewhat on the 3 liter range would be very good since 1 L 68% NA costs about 40 USD alone here, and you also go to a watchlist. I don't like watchlists.

[Edited on 1/4/18 by joseph6355]

CobaltChloride - 1-4-2018 at 07:47

I agree with the fact that it's better to buy good quality glassware rather than buying the nitric acid directly. I suggest looking at the seller deschem on eBay if you're interested in buying glassware. Since NileRed's acid was even more dilute than your acid and he did get 68% nitric acid in the receiving flask, you should also get 68%. If you want some proof it is at that concentration, do as NileRed did and measure its density.

greenlight - 1-4-2018 at 08:06

I was just about to write that you can get a fairly accurate idea of the concentration using the density.

Heres a calculator which takes into account ambient temperature as well:

http://www.handymath.com/cgi-bin/nitrictble2.cgi?submit=Entr...

joseph6355 - 10-4-2018 at 08:30

I was just about to write that you can get a fairly accurate idea of the concentration using the density.

Heres a calculator which takes into account ambient temperature as well:

http://www.handymath.com/cgi-bin/nitrictble2.cgi?submit=Entr...

Thank you!

joseph6355 - 10-4-2018 at 09:11

Is recrystallizing trinitrophenol from non-distilled water something stupid? Will it form its metal picrates from the ions in the water? Is the amount formed dangerous?

FeedMe94 - 10-4-2018 at 10:01

Hello , im looking for some alternative fuels for Ammonium nitrate. So far i tried petrol , hexamine and wax. Any other fuel easy obtainable ?

joseph6355 - 10-4-2018 at 11:37

Hello , im looking for some alternative fuels for Ammonium nitrate. So far i tried petrol , hexamine and wax. Any other fuel easy obtainable ?

Isnt AN the oxidizer and petrol the fuel?
There are other nitrate salts that are easily available.

Regarding fuel alternatives, you could try methane, oil (vegetable, mineral oil and fuel oil), kerosene... Some of them aren't ideal but they could be used.
If you are aiming for balanced OB, you would need to change the proportions for each different fuel and mix the stoichiometric amount.

What is the final product that you are trying to obtain?

[Edited on 10/4/18 by joseph6355]

FeedMe94 - 10-4-2018 at 17:04

Hello , im looking for some alternative fuels for Ammonium nitrate. So far i tried petrol , hexamine and wax. Any other fuel easy obtainable ?

Im testing some ANFO charges. The best so far is AN with Hexamine but im using it as booster for AN with Wax. Im looking for something to replace the wax. Kerosene or fuel oil doesnt seem good cause of their cooling effect while evaporate

nitro-genes - 21-4-2018 at 12:59

The 3-nitrogroup of 2,3,4,6-tetranitroaniline is easily displaced by nucleophiles:

1. Reaction with water results in 3-hydroxy 2,4,6 trinitroaniline (Chemistry of powder and explosives, T.L Davis, page 173)
2. Reaction with alcoholic ammonia results in 3-amino 2,4,6 trinitroaniline (Chemistry of powder and explosives, T.L Davis, page 173)
2. Reaction with azide results in 3-azido 2,4,6 trinitroaniline (which can rearrange to a furoxan)
3. Reaction with methanolic hydroxylamine results in 5-amino-4,6-dinitrobenzofuroxan (https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1023049531550)

How would 2,3,4,6-tetranitroaniline react with alcoholic hydrazine? Any ideas? Presumably, 3-hydrazino 2,4,6 trinitroaniline would form first, would it rearrange internally or would it react preferably with the 3-nitrogroup of another 2,3,4,6-tetranitroaniline molecule?

EM Substitute for experimenting with plasticizers

underground - 21-4-2018 at 15:16

What easily available substitute can i use instead ETN/PETN for doing some tests with various plasticizers ? (plasticizers from gum/rat glue)

FeedMe94 - 24-4-2018 at 11:11

Today i tested 4 different types of flash powder.

Kclo4 / Al 7 / 3
Kclo4 / Al /S 7 / 2 / 1
Kclo3 / Al 7 / 3
Kclo3 / Al /S 7 / 2 / 1

kclo4 is way more stable. Non of them, even with S wont go bang with impact on metal surface.
From the other side both kclo3 will go bang on impact, just the one with S a bit easier. All of them i think sounds the same. Maybe the kclo3 / al / s sounded more like a thunder. I think it was faster

Any other ratios that might work better ?

Dornier 335A - 25-4-2018 at 10:25

This might interest you:

It's from Takeo Shimizu's book "Fireworks, the Art Science and Technique".
He claims the loudest combination of the three components is 64% KClO₄, 23% dark Al and 13% S.

FeedMe94 - 25-4-2018 at 15:17

Thank you so much Dornier !!! Not only helped me to achieve what im looking for (noise) but also you helped me save a lot of KCLO4 and Dark Al which are expensive unlike Sulfur. Gonna try it soon

Rocinante - 27-4-2018 at 11:20

...falsified by direct pressure measurements (thin paper tubes), unfortunately, KClO4/Al is better than any other non-exotic mix - and much safer

FeedMe94 - 28-4-2018 at 10:11

Another question. Can i store 65% HNO3 , H2SO4 and 31-33% HCl in PET Plastic bottles ?They are brown but you can see through them

JJay - 28-4-2018 at 10:20

Another question. Can i store 65% HNO3 , H2SO4 and 31-33% HCl in PET Plastic bottles ?They are brown but you can see through them

No. PET is a polyester plastic, and strong mineral acids will cause it to break down.

FeedMe94 - 28-4-2018 at 11:07

What is the best plastic to store those acids , i dont really want to use glass as it breaks easily

[Edited on 28-4-2018 by feedme94]

Laboratory of Liptakov - 28-4-2018 at 12:06

Plast from bleach from store container is pretty resistant. Even against chlorine and chlorine oxides. Tested in chlorate cell device. Else plast were dissolved. For example for electric uses.

FeedMe94 - 29-4-2018 at 03:04

We know what type it is ? Because i want to buy little 200ml bottles so i can handle them. The one that i have them now are 5L bottles

Determination of 2,4,6-trinitrophenol or 2,4-dinitrophenol

c1der - 29-4-2018 at 21:34

Is there a "home chemistry" way to determine if my final product from ASA sulfonation and nitration is 2,4,6-trinitrophenol and not 2,4-dinitrophenol?

urea1990 - 30-4-2018 at 05:03

Wearing proper respiratory protection, heat a minute amount of the product to 125C. Make sure it doesn't reach 150C (picric acid's flash point). If your product is dinitrophenol, it'll boil off; picric acid will just melt.

c1der - 30-4-2018 at 09:49

Sorry, but I don't have precise temperature control. Is there any other way?

[Edited on 30-4-2018 by c1der]

FeedMe94 - 30-4-2018 at 10:41

By the way KCLO3 flash powders are way stronger than KCLO4. I made a comparison video i will upload it soon

**edit

https://youtu.be/1tdmSpzAqpg

[Edited on 30-4-2018 by feedme94]

Bert - 30-4-2018 at 11:44

By the way KCLO3 flash powders are way stronger than KCLO4. I made a comparison video i will upload it soon

**edit

https://youtu.be/1tdmSpzAqpg

[Edited on 30-4-2018 by feedme94]

You probably mean to say that the chlorate mixtures you tested appear to be more brissant, from dammage done to your witness plates (pop cans).

Stronger implies more total energy released- per weight? Per volume?

FeedMe94 - 30-4-2018 at 11:57

You are right , my english are not that good. Chlorate mixtures are more brissant and also found that sulfur increase the brisance in all mixtures i tested. I also think that KCLO3 70% / AL 30% mix was the loudest.

[Edited on 30-4-2018 by feedme94]

C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2 - 2-5-2018 at 15:22

While looking for ways to make fine aluminum powder, I came across this Instructables page online, by Dornier 335A. (http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-super-fine-powde...) I also found this SM post, and a few others (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=21516&...) Unfortunately, the instruction is in a YouTube video, and since Dornier's channel was taken down, I can't watch the video. I was wondering if anyone here can explain this process. If it's too complicated to explain, ignore this and don't worry about it. I'll stick with the ball mill, or something. It sounds like you grind the metal between a steel plate and a steel bar? Is there any particular pointers for making it fine? Thank you.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 2-5-2018 at 22:08

Were tested Dornier method. Main problem is unstability final superfine material. Good energetic properties has this EM only during a few hours. Maximal 24 hours. Superfine aluminium (or magnesium or magnalium or stone from lighter) is instantly after prepare (during prepare) in oxidizing process on air. And any oxidizer (KClO3/4 ) in mixture, this process accelerate. Between two flat metal is not problem prepare super fine metal powder. Problem is very low stability. Is it an the blind way..... :cool:

....LL

underground - 3-5-2018 at 14:43

Have you ever tried to add few gr of charcoal to prevent oxidation ? This is how dark german works

Dornier 335A - 6-5-2018 at 06:18

The process very simple yet effective. Here's a gif from the original video:

I don't see how charcoal would stop oxidation from air. It's not possible to cover the metal particles with equally sized charcoal particles and it certainly doesn't act as a sacrificial anode.

My experience is that even submicron magnesium survives a day or so in dry air, even mixed with an oxidizer, before it really starts to lose performance.

MineMan - 7-5-2018 at 13:33

I have tried Dornier's method, very ingenious, it works well. But it wont work with mild steel, one needs stainless or hardened steel. Be careful not to over grind to.

Bert - 7-5-2018 at 17:01

Sorry, gif is a bit low resolution.

Are you using two smooth pieces of steel, or is the upper piece a mill file?

RogueRose - 7-5-2018 at 21:41

The method of using a metal plate and bar is a great idea and I think the oxidation process might be able to be mitigated by using a waxy substance such as magnesium stearate or maybe paraffin, anything that can coat the surface a slight bit and I think the grinding motion of this process is ideal for making an extremely thin and complete coating on the surface. Maybe even some soap would work well for this, something as simple as Ivory.?

Also, would a round bar/rod work maybe better than a flat bar as it would allow for more pressure at any given point over the metal being ground.?

[Edited on 5-8-2018 by RogueRose]

nitro-genes - 11-5-2018 at 12:59

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctJDPjnZ3Ag

Curious how easily one of these could be sanded down using a drill for example, compared to solid aluminium.

[Edited on 11-5-2018 by nitro-genes]

Bert - 17-5-2018 at 07:57

Do any have a source for information on HNDPAN, Bis(2,4,6-trinitrophenyl)aminoethyl nitrate? Particularly looking for VOD, toxicity and storage stability.

The information included with Axt's OTC Pentryl publication looked interesting, the Lead block expansion in particular.

Not much to be found with Google-

[Edited on 5-17-2018 by Bert]

Plasticized nitrourea

joseph6355 - 19-5-2018 at 09:31

Nitrourea decomposes in the presence of water and in contact with an alkali. What if just after it was filtered from the sulfuric acid we plasticized it? Wouldn't it make it water-proof?

underground - 19-5-2018 at 15:47

What VoD NU got and how easily can be detonated ? Can it be packed at high density ? I did not found much info for NU.

[Edited on 19-5-2018 by underground]

joseph6355 - 19-5-2018 at 16:01

What VoD NU got and how easily can be detonated ? Can it be packed at high density ? I did not found much info for NU.

[Edited on 19-5-2018 by underground]

Crystal density of 1.6 g/cm³ (1).
VoD of 6860 m/s at 1.45 g/cm³ (2)

1. http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.56160.html
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent#Relative_effect...

underground - 20-5-2018 at 14:27

What VoD NU got and how easily can be detonated ? Can it be packed at high density ? I did not found much info for NU.

[Edited on 19-5-2018 by underground]

Crystal density of 1.6 g/cm³ (1).
VoD of 6860 m/s at 1.45 g/cm³ (2)

1. http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.56160.html
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent#Relative_effect...

interesting, i will try some once i got some free time. What i got into my mind is to keep it stored into a desiccator bag. When you want to use it, put it into a zip bag with some liquid HE to increase the density. Or press it into high density into a plastic container and cover it with some wax. I dont think so you could make a plastic from it being stable without storing it somehere air tide.

On the other hand NQ is almost the same as NU and it doesnt have the hydrolysis problem, but unfortunately NQ is very difficult to detonate and it is hard to achieve high densities. My fear it that NU also will be difficult to detonate like NQ

[Edited on 20-5-2018 by underground]

joseph6355 - 20-5-2018 at 17:35

What VoD NU got and how easily can be detonated ? Can it be packed at high density ? I did not found much info for NU.

[Edited on 19-5-2018 by underground]

Crystal density of 1.6 g/cm³ (1).
VoD of 6860 m/s at 1.45 g/cm³ (2)

1. http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.56160.html
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TNT_equivalent#Relative_effect...

The binder binds the solid to the plasticizer (in this case, methylricinoleate). The oil is hydrophobic and will repel water. Assuming that your Nitrourea is anhydrous by the time of the plasticizing process and your solvent is also anhydrous, your should obtain a putty that is 99.9% water free and will repel it. Does this sound right?
I have never handled Nitrourea, nice to know that it is that insensitive.
Maybe using a 5-10g ETN booster would help Nitrourea go high order.

The appeal for Nitrourea is that it is easily synthesized. Urea can be bought OTC, and then nitrated with nitrating salts and dehydrated to yield Nitrourea. I suppose that recrystallization is a must since the fertilizer might contain lots of impurities.
Urea runs for 4 usd/kg here, its pretty cheap.

http://energetics.chm.uri.edu/system/files/PEPUNNUManuscript...
This paper reports a 1.73 g/cm³ density for Nitrourea. With 10% inerts I assume it would result in a 1.55ish density.

underground - 21-5-2018 at 12:19

That is true, i see your point, now i am not sure if the plasticizer will help. Why dont you try to plasticize ammonium nitrate and let is ouside. If it absorb water then the NU will do the same hydrolizing it.

[Edited on 21-5-2018 by underground]

joseph6355 - 21-5-2018 at 13:04

That is true, i see your point, now i am not sure if the plasticizer will help. Why dont you try to plasticize ammonium nitrate and let is ouside. If it absorb water then the NU will do the same hydrolizing it.

[Edited on 21-5-2018 by underground]

Hm.. I thought that binding it to an oil would make it hydrophobic.
Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.

I plasticized some dough yesterday and when a drop of water hits it, it does not mix with the putty. It simply slides through the surface and doesn't spread at all.

underground - 21-5-2018 at 14:04

Try it with some Ammonium nitrate and let us know

[Edited on 21-5-2018 by underground]

joseph6355 - 21-5-2018 at 15:19