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Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel  | Sadly almost certainly a fictional story.
You could make a mix like that but it would not make any nitre.
The mixture needs to rot in warm, damp conditions with plenty of air until it is like a rich compost, maybe a year or two is needed.
The final extraction takes place when the mixture is like black earth without a smell of ammonia or manure.
The other depressing thing is that it has be be done on a big scale otherwise it just will not rot down.
Compost and manure has to be made on a large scale or it will not develop the right conditions to start to rot.
Look at the original paper and you will realise they are doing it on a tonnage scale.
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel] |
----
I charge you with apostasy to "The art and science of amateur experimentalism."
You — based on book learning — criticize someone who actually did the experiment.
Where is my good friend Aurelain is now that I need him?
AURELIAN (Lucius Domitius Aurelianus), ca. 215-275
A single instance will serve to display the rigour, and even cruelty
of Aurelian. One of his soldiers had seduced the wife of his host.
The guilty wretch was fastened to two trees forcible drawn toward
each other, and his limbs were torn asunder by their sudden separation.
A few such examples impressed a salutary consternation.
The punishment of Aurelain were terrible; but he had seldom occasion
to punish more than once for the same offence.
Edward Gibbion, The History Of The Decline and Fall Of The Roman Empire.
Strong letter follows.
Snicker-snicker; tee-hee; chortle; guffaw.
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ScienceSquirrel
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I have a fair bit of experience in practical lab work and I run a 10 UK gallon ( 46 litre ) microbrewery as a hobby so I have some feel for what is
likely and practical.
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A practical method might be to set up an aquarium and a bottom filter under a bed of natural gravel taken from a pond or stream, preferably from near
a sewage outflow to maximise our good bacteria!
This could be fed with a mixture of urine and garden lime, don't you just love this scrummy chemistry  .
The bacteria are tolerant of high levels of urea, ammonia salts and nitrate and starving them of any organic matter that would favour denitrification.
You are running a basic small sewage farm dealing with wee only.
I reckon this would produce a liquor containing a few grams of calcium nitrate per litre after a few weeks.
Treat the liquor with potassium carbonate and then filter and concentrate.
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You can get nitrate from peat.
Geoffrey Martin and William Barbour
Industrial Nitrogen Compounds and Explosives: A Practical Treatise on the
Manufacture of, Properties and Industrial Uses of Nitric Acid, Nitrates, Nitrites,
Ammonia, Ammonium Salts, Cyanides, Cyanamide, Etc. Etc.
D. Appleton and Company, New York MCMXV
Whether derived from rocks or from efflorescences in the soil near stables,
urinals, etc., the nitrate is invariably produced by the decay of nitrogenous
organic material, first into ammonia, and later, by oxidation, into nitrous and nitric
acids, which, in the presence of alkali, produce potassium nitrate.
At one time much potassium nitrate was produced in Europe by the Govern-
ments of the different countries for supplying themselves with the necessary
nitrate for making gunpowder, the operation being carried out in " saltpetre
plantations."
For this purpose nitrogenous organic matter of animal or vegetable origin was
allowed to putrefy by exposure to air in a dark place ; it was then mixed with lime,
mortar, and wood ashes (containing salts of potassium and sodium) and heaped
into low mounds. These were left exposed to the air, being moistened from time
to time by urine and the drainage from dung-heaps.
After a couple of years the outer surface of the saltpetre earth was removed' and
the nitrates extracted by lixiviation with water. To the solution potassium
carbonate was added, and on concentration and filtering from the precipitated
calcium and magnesium salts, the clear solution was evaporated for KNO3.
This industry, however' since the introduction of the cheap NaNO3, has almost
entirely ceased, the KNO3, being now made from the NaNO3 by the conversion
process described above. It is possible that, in a modified form, this old industry
may revive.
Thus Muntz and Laine (Compt. rend., 1905, 141, 861 ; 1906, 142, 430, 1239)
impregnated peat with sufficient lime to combine with the nitric acid formed, and
then inoculated it with nitrifying bacteria and passed through it a 0.75 per cent.
solution of ammonium sulphate (NH4)2SO4 at 30o C., thereby obtaining a 1 per
cent. solution of calcium nitrate, Ca(N03)2. The bacteria would oxidise quickly
only dilute solution of ammonium salts, but even 22 per cent. nitrate in the
solution did not interfere with the process. Consequently, by sending the
ammonium sulphate solution five times through the peat beds there was finally
obtained a solution containing 41.7 g. of Ca(N03)2 per litre.
Yield—6.5 kg. of Ca(N03)2 in twenty-four hours per cubic metre of peat. The old
saltpetre plantations yielded 5 kg. KNO3 in two years per cubic metre.
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR BUREAU OF MINES
Bulletin 16
Charles A Davis
The uses of peat for fuel and other purposes.
1911
NITRATES.
Peat has also been proposed as a means for the intensive
production of nitrates on the following principle pointed out by
Muntz and Laine. A culture bed of peat, watered with a dilute
(0.75 per cent) solution of ammonium sulphate, then inoculated
with nitrifying organisms and kept at a temperature of 38° C.,
yields, after a time, nitrates to the amount of 0.82 per cent. By
repeating the application of ammonium sulphate five times, the
quantity of nitrates developed amounts to more than 4 per cent.
This may be washed from the bed and purified. The peat may then
be used for fuel or for distillation. Whether this process is adapted
to the commercial production of nitrates on a large scale is not yet
demonstrated, but in view of the rare occurrence and limited
supplies of these salts, so vitally important in agriculture, it
presents possibilities of great importance if the facts relative to
nitrogen fixation are as stated. The fact that all of the world's
supply of grain alcohol is obtained by the action of microorganisms
on sugar solutions, often of considerable dilution, points strongly
to the conclusion that no great difficulty would be met in applying
to commercial operations the principle stated by the authors
quoted. If, however, the only change effected is to convert to a
nitrate the nitrogen compound supplied to the peat from
ammonia, the value of the process is questionable.
Industrial and manufacturing chemistry: a practical treatise, Volume 1
By Geoffrey Martin
1912
Thus Muntz and Laine (Compt. rend., 1905, 141, 861 ; 1906, 142,
430, 1239) impregnated peat with sufficient lime to combine with
the nitric acid formed, and then inoculated it with nitrifying
bacteria and passed through it a 0.75 per cent. solution of
ammonium sulphate (NH4)2SO4, at 30° C., thereby obtaining a I
per cent. solution of calcium nitrate, Ca(NO2)2. The bacteria
would oxidise quickly only dlilute solution of ammonium salts, but
even 22 per cent. nitrate in the solution did not interfere with the
process. Consequently, by sending the ammonium sulphate
solution five times through the peat beds there was finally
obtained a solution containing 41.7 e. of Ca(NO2)2 per litre.
Yield.—6.5 kg. of Ca(NOs)2 in twenty-four hours per cubic metre
of peat. The old saltpetre plantations yielded 5 kg. KXO2 in two
years per cubic metre.
Trnasactions of THE INSTITUTION OF MINING ENGINEERS.
VOL. XXXI.-1905-1906.
PEAT-MOSSES AND THE INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION OF NITRATES.
1j Utilixalion de* TmirliHre* pour la Production inteturire des
Xilrate*. By A. Mxntz and E. Laink. Comple*-rendv
hefalomndaire* ilex Stances de I'Aratli'mie den Science*, 1906,
vol. cxlii., page* 1239-1244. The authors have made experiments
with peat from Holland, from Picardy, and from the borders of
Burgundy, varying in character from the spongy surface-peat to
the compact bottom-peat, by dividing the material into small
fragments, mixing it with an appropriate amount of calcium
carbonate, sprinkling it with living micro-organisms, and finally
adding ammonium sulphate. The material thus treated becomes
the seat of extraordinarily active nitrification, surpassing anything
of the kind that the authors had observed in the course of previous
experiments with other substances. The quantity of nitrate which
an acre of peat feet thick) would produce in a year, according to
their results, would exceed 19,425 tons. The phenomenon is
remarkable for the rapidity with which it takes place, this
nitrification of peat being comparable with tumultuous alcoholic
fermentation.
On the whole, the light and spongy, less decomposed varieties of
peat are more active in this respect, perhaps because air
circulates therein more freely, liquids are displaced more
methodically, and the vastly increased surface presented by the
filaments affords multiplied points of lodgment to micro-
organisms. It is shown, then, that with a comparatively simple
installation enormous quantities of ammoniacal salts can be
transformed within a very short time into nitrates. One drawback
which the authors at first found was the necessity of using a very
dilute solution of ammonium sulphate, in order not to hamper the
action of the nitrifying micro-organisms. This was subsequently
obviated by passing flic same liquid over a succession of
peat-surfaces, adding ammonium sulphate as it passed from each
to the next in succession. The liquid became gradually charged
with nitrate, the proportion of ammonia remaining always
insufficient to counteract the action of the nitrifying organisms. At
the fifth passage of the liquid, the amount, of contained nitrate
was more than five times what it was at the first, and even that
does not represent the utmost possible degree of enrichment.
Consequently, the authors consider that the use of peat solves the
problem of the industrial production of saltpetre, with economy
and rapidity, on a large scale.
Heat is an important factor in nitrification, and the authors found
that the most favourable temperature was about 86° Fahr. If the
nitrate-factory were set up in the immediate neighbourhood of a
peat-moss, obviously the peat itself would, under the
circumstances, be the cheapest and most readily available fuel.
Only one point remained to be settled, that was, whether a
sufficient quantity of ammoniacal salts could be extracted from the
peat itself to furnish the nitrifiable matter. In the dry distillation of
peat, a large proportion of the nitrogen evidently remains in the
coke; but, if peat be distilled in a current of superheated steam,
almost the whole of the contained nitrogen can be obtained in the
form of ammonia. The peat-mosses of France alone could, on this
hypothesis, yield millions of tons of nitrate, and vie in their output
with the great nitrate-deposits of Chile. Still greater is the yield to
be expected from the peat-mosses which cover so vast an extent
in many countries of Northern Europe, and therefore we can afford
to contemplate with equanimity, either the possible cessation of
nitrate-imports from South America, or the exhaustion of the
Chilian deposits. L. L. B.
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Thanks to The WIZard for the clue: Comp. Rend. Acad. Sci. Paris, 142, 1239-. 1244. MUNTZ, A., ET LAINE, E. 1906b Recherches sur la nitrification
intensive.
A good pdf scan of this was posted "recently" - I've had no luck searching for it 
Critical points that I remember: lots of surface area from the peat moss. Very good aeration. A good culture of nitrifying bacteria (which can be
worked up from farmyard dirt). Continued moisture but not enough to cause loss of aeration.
Given the results reported in this article the traditional methods for producing nitrate from manure, etc., used conditions about as unsuitable as
possible for good yield and quick results. The only property of a manure pile which would be useful is warmth in cold weather. Exclusion of air and
lack of water movement are very bad for the process.
I suspect, but have only very indirect evidence, that a dilute slurry of excreta kept sufficiently aerobic would quickly lose its smell. This is how a
composting toilet works, for instance.
Hmmmmmmm.... check the output of a Clivus Multrum for nitrate content. It makes good fertilizer.
Pig & cattle farms produce immense quantities of liquid waste which has to be disposed of somehow. It's very nutrient-rich so it would be a good
feedstock for a process which (for instance) recovered phosphate and nitrate in usable form. Rich, I tell you, it'll make us rich!
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by densest]
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by densest]
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| Quote: Originally posted by densest | Pig & cattle farms produce immense quantities of liquid waste which has to be disposed of somehow. It's very nutrient-rich so it would be a good
feedstock for a process which (for instance) recovered phosphate and nitrate in usable form. Rich, I tell you, it'll make us rich!
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by densest] |
Methane.
Where would the phosphate come from?
Bird guano from fish eating birds was the chief source
of phosphate, now radioactive Florida rock phosphate.
is used.
I recommend :—
George Evelyn Hutchinson's 554-page opus.
Survey of Contemporary Knowledge of Biogeochemistry
3. The Biogeochemistry of Vertebrate Excretion
Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History
Volume 96. New York : 1950
Some years back the AMNH was scanning all of their
Bulletins and putting them on line. I do not know if
this has been done-did yet.
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IrC
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The obvious is being overlooked. Putting ashes from a wood fire with the crap and circulating hot water through it for a while is how you make KNO3
starting with the materials he wishes to use. This method is as old as antiquity. Somewhat under 10 percent of wood ashes is potassium carbonate so
you will need 10 times more wood ashes. IIRC you are also making calcium nitrate from it's carbonate as well so thought should be given to
separation/purifying methods. Or I could be wrong about that it has been decades since I last looked into this method and I do not recall mention of
separating calcium nitrate. Maybe the KNO3 reaction happens more rapidly you chemical guru's can chime in on that one.
Also the type of wood burned is important, some types of trees give much more than 10 percent potassium to the reaction.
To summarize:
Good shit,
Good wood ashes,
Good hot water.
I barely remember a pic where the guy used a PVC pipe standing up loaded in layers of the material and water slowly came down through it, being
drained slowly from the bottom. This solution is filtered, and purified/crystallized KNO3 is produced from the resulting solution. He did complain a
lot about it plugging up but I have no memory of his fix on that one. Maybe someone can find mention of this in one of those old anarchist cookbooks.
I do remember this subject being covered in one.
Later you can add brimstone and more ashes not so completely burned and build Chinese fireworks. This all sounds so alchemical it makes one wonder how
they lived before the internet.
"Where is my good friend Aurelain is now that I need him?"
I could be wrong but I think he is dead by now.
[Edited on 6-1-2010 by IrC]
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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ScienceSquirrel
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That is all very well but it is old and nasty chemistry.
Running the liquid process on a realistic scale will require a large tank of maybe 30 litres in size containing a filter bed of peat or gravel and
fitted with a pump.
It will have to be fed with fertiliser grade ammonium sulphate and calcium carbonate in the form of garden lime until a nitrate rich liquor is
produced.
As an alternative to ammonium sulphate as a raw material piss is free but the sodium chloride would make the separation and crystallisation of the
product harder.
Then treatment with potassium carbonate will make the final potassium nitrate solution to be concentrated and crystallised.
It will be a big and energy hungry plant but the raw materials are absolutely unrestricted everywhere and it would make potassium nitrate.
Go get it Wiz!
[Edited on 1-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]
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IrC
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The guy I remember doing this used the most simple home built small scale setup and made useful amounts of KNO3 for his purposes. Do not know why you
keep pushing the mega scale approach unless the guy is looking for tons of "good shit".
Was that a pun?
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Mega-scale is interesting because manure disposal is a big problem and a "drop-in" reactor with useful output (methane, nitrate fertilizer, etc.)
could be very profitable and very good for the environment.
Phosphorous is mostly found in bird manure but can be a problem in any manure stream.
Methane output requires anaerobic conditions. I don't know how much urea is left at the end of that process.
The tests in the French paper used ammonium sulfate because that was a by-product of coke, coal gas, etc. The manure stream would require encouraging
the right bacteria to convert proteins and urea to ammonia.
If one could get both out it would use the cellulose and the protein/urea - very efficient!
One might first settle out most of the solids and put the liquid onto the moss bed. The solids digested aerobically briefly by mixing in sawdust,
grass clippings, etc, for air passages and the liquid drained to the moss bed, and the remainder put in a methane digester. There wouldn't be much
left except water & salts.
As I said before, a Clivus Multrum composting toilet has a smell but far less of one than you'd expect. The keys are the right bacteria and aerobic
conditions.
For a backyard scale operation, an aquarium water pump or two should be sufficient.
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: Originally posted by IrC | The obvious is being overlooked. Putting ashes from a wood fire with the crap and circulating hot water through it for a while is how you make KNO3
starting with the materials he wishes to use. This method is as old as antiquity. Somewhat under 10 percent of wood ashes is potassium carbonate so
you will need 10 times more wood ashes. IIRC you are also making calcium nitrate from it's carbonate as well so thought should be given to
separation/purifying methods. Or I could be wrong about that it has been decades since I last looked into this method and I do not recall mention of
separating calcium nitrate. Maybe the KNO3 reaction happens more rapidly you chemical guru's can chime in on that one.
Also the type of wood burned is important, some types of trees give much more than 10 percent potassium to the reaction.
To summarize:
Good shit,
Good wood ashes,
Good hot water.
I barely remember a pic where the guy used a PVC pipe standing up loaded in layers of the material and water slowly came down through it, being
drained slowly from the bottom. This solution is filtered, and purified/crystallized KNO3 is produced from the resulting solution. He did complain a
lot about it plugging up but I have no memory of his fix on that one. Maybe someone can find mention of this in one of those old anarchist cookbooks.
I do remember this subject being covered in one.
Later you can add brimstone and more ashes not so completely burned and build Chinese fireworks. This all sounds so alchemical it makes one wonder how
they lived before the internet.
"Where is my good friend Aurelain is now that I need him?"
I could be wrong but I think he is dead by now.
[Edited on 6-1-2010 by IrC] |
You are going to try this?
Raw turds contain nitrogen as amine type material and not a lot of that, there is only trace amounts of nitrate present.
The reason the old documents refer to the use of so much fermented piss aka lant is that it contains ammonia which is oxidised in the heap or peat bed
to form nitrate.
The raw materials contain very little nitrate, it is formed by the aerobic respiration of the correct bacteria.
We eat carbohydrates and turn out carbon dioxide, they eat ammonia and make nitrate.
The reason that calcarous earth or carbonate of lime is used is that it is a cheap mild base and it soaks up the sulphate as slightly soluble calcium
sulphate if you use ammonium sulphate as the feed stock.
The reaction media must not be too acid or alkaline or it would block the reactions so a mild base to buffer the reaction media to a good soil type pH
makes sense.
[Edited on 2-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]
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The WiZard is In
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digesteth, fermenteth, and ripeneth
digesteth, fermenteth, and ripeneth
The old method of obtaining saltpetre was to collect vegetable and animal refuse
containing nitrogen, the sweepings of slaughter- houses, weeds, etc., into heaps
and to mix this with limestone, old mortar, earth and ashes. These heaps were
sheltered from the rain, and kept moist from time to time with runnings from
stables and other urine.
As late as in the reign of James I (1624), we find in an indenture between the
King and Thomas Warricke, Peter Sparke, Michael Townshend and John Fells,
the statement that " for making of the saltpetre which hath been formerly and
now is made it has been found a matter of mere necessity to dig houses, cellars,
vaults, stables, dovehouses and such like places, wherewith divers of his
Majesty's subjects have found themselves grieved. " We are also informed that
the conveyance of the liquors, vessels, tubs, ashes, etc, from place to place in
carts had been a frequent source of nuisance and litigation.
The above persons purporting to have invented a new process for making
saltpetre undertake to make it " as good and perfect as any hath formerly been,
and shall be vented at cheaper and easier rates than formerly his Majesty or his
loving subjects have paid for-the same, which said saltpetre as His Majesty is
informed is to be or may be made of an artificial mixture or composition of chalk,
all sorts of limestone and lime, marl, divers minerals, and other nitrous mines
and other kind of ordinary earth, street dirt, or rubbish, stable dung, emptying of
vaults, the excrements of all living creatures, their bodies putrified, all vegetables
putrified or rotted, or the ashes, of them, and these or any of these mixed
together in proportion as they may be most conveniently had, and shall be found
most useful in such places where the said works shall be thought fit to be
erected, which said artificial mixture or composition of any or all the foresaid
ingredients is often times moistened with urine of men and beasts, petre, or
nitrous wells, and springs, and all other concrete juices and blood of all sorts as
can be gotten, and shall be fit and convenient for it, and divers times turned and
removed, by which means the mixture in time digesteth, fermenteth, and
ripeneth, from whence there is engendered the seed or mine of saltpetre which
afterwards is to be extracted with common water, urine, the water of petre or
nitrous wells, and springs, and then either breathed away in the sun or air, or
stoved with gentle heat or boiled with a stronger fire with his proper additament
of ashes, lime, and such like for separating the common salt and other mixtures
naturally growing in the liquor and afterwards refined into perfect saltpetre. "
The King then granted the patentees licence to exercise their invention for a term
of twenty-one years and to set up houses for preparing the artificial earth, etc.
On 26th December of the same year " was issued a proclamation, commanding
that no dovehouses or cellars be paved, except that part of the cellars where the
wine and beer is laid, in order that the growth of saltpetre might not be
obstructed." (Patent Roll, 22 James I, part 4, No. 9 dorso.)
The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry
Published under the auspices of the:-
VIIth International Congress of Applied Chemistry
E A Brayley Hodgetts editor
Whittaker and Co. London 1909
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placing their tubs by the bedside of the old and sick
1630, 14th February. Sir Francis Seymour to Secretary Coke. The saltpetre men
care not in whose houses they dig, threatening men that by their commission
they may dig in any man's house, in any room, and at any time, which will prove
a great grievance to the country. In the town where the writer lives they have
digged up some malting rooms, and threaten to dig more. They dig up the
entries and halls of divers men. If any oppose them they break up men's houses
and dig by force. They make men carry their saltpetre at a groat a mile, and take
their carriages in sowing time and harvest, with many other oppressions. Hopes
that these men may not be allowed to strain their commission. The saltpetre
man's name for Wilts is Hellyer. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi, No. i.)
1630, 20th February. Petition of Hugh Grove, Deputy for making saltpetre to the
Lords of the Admiralty. Complains of Thomas Stallam and others of Thetford for
refusing to carry saltpetre liquors. Prays that they may be sent for by warrant. (S.
P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxi,,No. 35)
1630, 6th March. Gabriel Dowse and others to the Lords of the Admiralty. The
complaints of wrongs committed by Stevens the saltpetre man are so great that
they had not been able to reduce them into method. Pray a respite of their
certificate for a fortnight or three weeks. (S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxii, No. 40'
1630, 23rd March. Thos. Bond to Nicholas. Understands Lords of the Admiralty
have referred the collection of the proofs against the saltpetre men to two
knights. . . . saltpetre men make their vaunts that they will get their Iiberty and
carry themselves in the country as formerly. . . . If the saltpetre men go down
without redress of wrongs it will despair into the heart of the country.... (S. P.
Dom. Charles vol. clxiii, No. 40)
1630 30th April. Sir William Russell, Sir John Wolsterholme, and Sir Kenelm
Digby to the Lords of the Admiralty. Report on consideration of the complaints
and examinations sent in against Mr. Hilliard and Mr. Stephens, saltpetre men
and their servants. According to the proofs there is no part of their commission
which they have not extremely abused. As in digging in all places without
distinction, as in parlours, bedchambers, threshing and malting floors yea, God's
own house they have not forborne; so they respect not times, digging in the
breeding time in dovehouses, and working sometimes a month together,
whereby the flights of doves are destroyed; and without respect to harvest time
in barns and in malting houses, when green malt is upon the floor; and
bedchambers, placing their tubs by the bedside of the old and sick, even of
women in childbed, and persons on their death-beds. They have undermined
walls, and seldom fill up the places they have digged. In taking up, cart they
observe no seasons, and charge more carts than are needful, discharging some
again for bribes, and overload the carts they employ. They do not pay the prices
for carriage required by the commission. They take up coals not only where they
a sold but from those that have fetched them 20 or 30 miles by land for their own
winter's provision. They recommend that the offenders should be punished, and
that the commission be taken in, and a new one made out, with restrictions
designed to put an end to the abuses complained of (S. P. Dom. Charles 11 vol.
clxv, No. 38.)
1630, 26th June. Petition of Nicholas Stephens, Deputy saltpetre men to the
Lords of the Admiralty. The Lords having directed Attorney General to proceed
against him in the especially in the charge of digging in the Norton, he begs them
to consider the declaration annexed, to withdraw the order for proceeding in the
Star Chamber.
Annexing the declaration above alluded to. At a time great want of saltpetre he
removed only some waste and unnecessary part of the soil of the church of
Chipping Norton, as with the concurrence of the parishioners and ministers he
had done in the churches of Coventry, Warwick, and Oxford. Other digging was
done in his absence by his servant, whom he cast into Oxford gaol, and made
satisfaction to the parishioners. (S. Dom. Charles I, vol. clx, No. 46.)
1630, July. Petition of Thomas Hilliard, one of the saltpetre men, on behalf of
himself and his servants to the Lords of the Admiralty. By commission dated April
28, 5 Charles I, they were authorized to work for petre in the houses of any of
His Majesty's subjects, and within privileged places. About January last,
petitioner's workmen endeavoured to dig in the pigeon house of Thomas Bond,
who disobeyed the commission, and complained against petitioner, and in
February last procured him and his workmen to be sent for by warrant. They
have ever since remained prisoners. Pray to be dismissed. (S. P. Dom. Charles
I, vol. clxxi, No. 79.)
1631, 16th March. Thomas Thornhill to the Lords of the Admiralty. He complains
of endeavours made to prevent the search for saltpetre, by laying soap ashes on
the earth, paving cellars with stone, or filling them with gravel. (S. P. Dom
Charles I, vol. clxxxvi, No. 102.)
1631, April. Requests of Stephen Barrett, John Vincent, Thomas Hilliard, and five
others, the Deputies of the Lords of the Admiralty for making saltpetre, to the
same Lords. It being the pleasure of the Lords to renew or alter the Commission
under which the Deputies act, they set forth certain provisions which they desire
to have inserted in the new Commission for their defence. Among other things, if
forbidden to dig in bedrooms, they desire not to be debarred from digging in
other rooms in dwelling houses; also that owners of dove houses and stables
should be prohibited from adopting measures which, prevent the growth of
saltpetre; that owners of carriages may still be compellable to carry the saltpetre
at 4d. a mile; that the Deputies may take- wood ashes wherever found at a
certain reasonable price; with other provisions framed in the same spirit. (S. P.
Dom. Charles 1, vol. clxxxix, No. 89.)
1631, 14th June. Matthew Goad, Deputy Clerk of the Star Chamber, to the
judges of the same Court. Certificate that in the cause of John Morley and others
against Thos. Hilliard and others, it is confessed in the answers of the
defendants that some of them dug for saltpetre under the beds of persons who
were sick therein, that compositions were taken for discharge of carts
commanded to carry saltpetre, that Hilliard hired horses to draw his wife's coach
up and down the country at the King's price, and caused the country to carry
coals for the work of saltpetre, and sold the same again to his own advantage.
(S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cxciii, No. 83.)
1634, 14th March. A proclamation for the preservation of the mines of saltpetre.
No dovehouse or dovecot or cellar to be paved, and no stables pitched paved or
gravelled, where horse feet stand, but planked only. (Rymer's " Foedera," xix, p.
601.)
18th March. The Lords of the Admiralty to the Governor and Company of
Soapboilers. Give orders that the saltpetre men are to have the pre-emption of
wood ashes, on the ground that saltpetre is a commodity of such necessary use
for the King and Public that it ought to be preferred before the making of soap.
(S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiii, No. i.)
1634, 15th November. Richard Bagnall, slatpeter man to Nicholas. Sends
enclosed list of names of those who have lately carried forth their earth in their
pigeon houses. If some course be not taken others will do the same, and it will
be impossible for the saltpetre men to supply their great proportions, besides
destroying the mine. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, Vol. cclxxvii, No. 52.)
Annexed list (52. i) above mentioned. It contains names of persons in cos.
Oxford and Warwick.
1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the
Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from
the adjacent pits to his boiling-house in Thornburg; also because they carry off
the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I,
Vol. cclxxviii, No. 4-)
1634, 26th November. The Lords of the Admiralty to Montjoy Earl of Newport.
His Majesty is resolved to take into his hands and disposition all the gunpowder
made of the saltpetre of the kingdom, for better furnishing his occasions and
those of his subjects. (S. P. Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxxvii, No. 96.)
1634, 2nd December. Petition of John Giffard, saltpetre man to the Lords of the
Admiralty. His hindrances by refusal of people in Gloucester to carry coal from
the adjacent pits to his boilinghouse in Thornburg; also because they carry off
the earth from their pigeon-houses to manure their lands. (S. P. Dom. Charles I,
vol. cclxxviii, No- 4.)
1635, 18th April. Admiralty order to enquire concerning complaints of Thomas
Thornhill that divers persons in Somerset, contrary to proclamations, have
carried forth the earth out of their dovehouses, and divers inn-keepers have
paved their stables, by which practices the mine of saltpetre is destroyed. (S. P.
Dom. Charles I, vol. cclxiv, f. 115-)
1637, 3rd June. Articles exhibited to the Commissioners for Saltpetre by
Christopher Wren, Dean of Windsor, and Rector of Knoyle Magna or Epicopi,
Wilts, against Thomas Thornhill, saltpetreman, for damage done by digging for
saltpetre in the pigeon-house of the said rectory. There have been two diggings
in this pigeon-house, one by Helyar, whom Thornhill then served, about eight
years ago, the other by Thornhill in March, 1636-7. On the first occasion, the
pigeon-house, built of massy stone walls 20 ft. high, was so shaken that the
Rector was forced to buttress tip the east side thereof. On the last occasion the
foundation was undermined, and the north wall fell in. The loss to the Rector had
been that of three breeds, whereof the least never yielded fewer than -o or 4o
dozen, and of the whole flight, which forsook the house, and the Rector stands
endangered to the law for dilapidations. Thornhill has refused all recompense,
telling the Dean that the King must bear him out. The Dean desires that Thornhill
may make full recompense according to the King's pleasure signified on behalf
of the Dean, who is registrar of the Garter, at the last chapter of the Order in
Whitehall on 18th April last. Underwritten:
8.1. Order of the Lords that Thornhill answer these articles by that day sennight.
Whitehall, 3rd June, 1637(S. P. Dom. Charles 1, vol. ccclxi, No. 8.)
The Rise and Progress of the British Explosives Industry
Published under the Congress of Applied Chemistry
by it Explosives Section
London: Whittaker and Co.
1909
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ScienceSquirrel
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Another recipe for making nitre from poo, piss, etc mixed with earth but with added blood, etc.
That should certainly draw in the flies or worse the FBI to see if you are playing at being Hannibal Lector in the 'burbs.
i like the use of urine as the extraction solvent.
Unless your neighbours are the Clampets they are really going to object to gallons of piss boiling in your outhouse and even they might object
"Doggone it Elly May can you smell that there varmint boiling piss next door, ah tell you it sure don't smell like sour mash whisky!"
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IrC
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No I'm not the one asking how to make it. I still have 10 LBs of KNO3 I have never decided on a use for.
Even if I had none I would find some cheap rather than deal with slushy smelly crapola.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel |
Unless your neighbours are the Clampets they are really going to object to gallons of piss boiling in your outhouse and even they might object
"Doggone it Elly May can you smell that there varmint boiling piss next door, ah tell you it sure don't smell like sour mash whisky!"
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Extracted from:
Eduard Farber
Bulletin 240: Contribution from the Museum of History and Technology
Paper 40 HISTORY OF PHOSPHORUS
The Element from Animals and Plants
It was a little late to search for the philosophers' stone in 1669, yet it was in
such a search that phosphorus was discovered. Wilhelm Homberg (1652-1715)
described it in the following mariner: Brand, "a man little known, of low birth, with
a bizarre and mysterious nature in all he did, found this luminous matter while
searching for something else. He was a glassmaker by profession, but he had
abandoned it in order to be free for the pursuit of the philosophical stone with
which he was engrossed. Having put it into his mind that the secret of the
philosophical stone consisted in the preparation of urine, this man worked in all
kinds of manners and for a very long time without finding anything. Finally, in the
year 1669, after a strong distillation of urine, he found in the recipient a luminant
matter that has since been called phosphorus. He showed it to some of his
friends, among them Mister Kunkel [sic]." 1
To obtain phosphorus, a good proportion of coal (regarded as a type of
phlogiston) was added to urine, previously thickened by evaporation and
preferably after putrefaction, and the mixture was heated to the highest
attainable temperature. It was obvious that phIogiston entered into the
composition of the distillation product. The question remained whether this
product was generated de nova. In his research of 1743 to 1746, Andreas
Sigismund Marggraf (1709-1782) provided the answer. He found the new sub-
stance in edible plant seeds, and he concluded that it enters the human system
through the plant food, to be excreted later in the urine. He did not convince all
the chemists with his reasoning. In 1789, Macquer wrote: "There are some who,
even at this time, hold that the phosphorical ('phosphorische') acid generates
itself in the animals and who consider this to be the animalistic acid." 7
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In | Two young women came over to flirt with me (In the
mid-70's I was a competetive bicycler and thus I had good legs under
the kilt, had long flowing hair and beard, and cut a good figure of a
man). ....snip.... Suddenly her freind was not so happy either! So she
reached down, and grabbed a handful of the mixture, and flung it at
first one, and hit her full on the halter top, right on her -- shall we
say -- most curvacious anatomy. |
Cows may come and cows may go, but the bullshit goes on forever.
At least now we now what scatalogical fantasies turn this fine figure of a Wizard on.
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ScienceSquirrel
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It was actually Hennig Brandt, note the t he was German , that first isolated
phosphorous by the reduction of sodium ammonium phosphate aka microcosmic salt or stercorite obtained from urine.
Just putting up huge lumps of stuff without any attempt at checking facts or critical analysis is not science and in some cases it is not even
relevant or interesting.
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The WiZard is In
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From my post -
"Wilhelm Homberg (1652-1715)
described it in the following mariner: Brand, "a man little known, of low birth, with
a bizarre and mysterious nature in all he did, found this luminous matter while
searching for something else.
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ScienceSquirrel
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Brandt is a common German surname, Brand is not and occurs as a 20th century Anglicisation.
I guess that somebody fed the original text through an OCR program and did not do all the corrections.
Note the use of mariner instead of manner as well, look up Hennig Brandt on the internet and you will find that it is the correct spelling of his
name.
Quoting huge chunks of 300 year old stuff without any critical analysis at all is worse than SWIM-ing in my opinion.
Note that this is a SCIENCE forum, not a place for bibulous old farts to get their rocks off fantasising about young women having poo fights
[Edited on 2-6-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]
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The WiZard is In
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From my post -
"Wilhelm Homberg (1652-1715)
described it in the following mariner: Brand, "a man little known, of low birth, with
a bizarre and mysterious nature in all he did, found this luminous matter while
searching for something else. "
For a most complete description of Brand's discovery and a lot
of other stuff, I recommend —
John Emsley
The 13th Element : The Sordid Tale of Murder, Fire, and Phosphorus
John Wiley & Sons
2000
It is an easy read.
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ScienceSquirrel
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Check out E Numbers: An Edible Adventure episode 2 on BBC2 on 2/9/2010
It deals with preservatives and they extract potassium nitrate from horse shit and ashes.
One big bucket yields a small amount.
They go on to use it to make their own bacon and gunpowder.
It's great!
It gets better, he extracts E number chemicals from his own 'body materials' and makes a cake with them.
Yum yum or yuck yuck?
[Edited on 2-9-2010 by ScienceSquirrel]
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psychokinetic
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I don't mind it coming from there, but I don't think I could eat it if I was a part of the process.... knowingly, anyway.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | It deals with preservatives and they extract potassium nitrate from horse shit and ashes.
They go on to use it to make their own bacon and gunpowder.
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The crude KNO3 looked quite yellow. . .
Recrystallisations would have helped!
Of course, he pissed on the horse-shit too, before leaching.
Hmmm, mixed showers - ughhh. . .
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blogfast25
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I was watching that 'E numbers adventure yesterday'. Apart from the 'Supersize me!' style 'let's get stuffed on E numbers' part, it was really quite
interesting. I'm guessing he got about 50 g of KNO3 from two bucket loads of matured horse dung, not too bad at all...
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