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Author: Subject: A Grave Risk of Death
psychokinetic
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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 16:58


Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
household chemicals have becomes smoke-able mescaline laced with tropical frog poison.


... What is this I don't even.




“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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IrC
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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 19:18



Polverone I am unsure if my take on this thread is the same as yours so I will try to explain. Correct me if I am wrong but I see this as the most freedom robbing dangerous precedent yet. How can a vacuum system be probable cause, whether the size of Nasa's or my little attempt below. Pic 3 is the top pump and 4 is the 70 micron bottom pump.

They claimed he put neighbors in grave danger. Yet the man had nitrated nothing, nor was this his goal. There is zero evidence for the 'grave danger' hysteria, and I see zero probable cause over the vacuum system. If no probable cause then how can a man 'resist arrest' in his own home. I guess what bothers me is this is the first story I have seen which like the handwriting on the walls spells doom for our endeavors.


D1.JPG - 66kB

D2.JPG - 70kB

D3.JPG - 85kB

D4.JPG - 63kB


I should add (off topic) but those needle valves, copper and flare fittings are the way to go. Look at the 25+ " Hg on the gauges. In 2005 I pumped it down, lock valves and shut off pumps. Just took it out of storage last night to take these pics. The vacuum you see is where it was after over 4 years of storage and non use.

Now I will go play with it before I also get raided and they take my toys away.



[Edited on 12-12-2010 by IrC]




"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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psychokinetic
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[*] posted on 11-12-2010 at 22:11


Just because you use logic, IrC, does not mean they will use it.

"Don't like it, so it must be dangerous"




“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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MagicJigPipe
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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 02:29



Quote:

Only an idiot would mix chemicals together.


Can we make this the new site slogan?




"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think, free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 02:58


Quote: Originally posted by IrC  

You really do need to get your head out of this attack mentality.

Well, "attack mentality" seems a bit strong, but you're right; I should resist posting such pointed comments . . .

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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 06:18


The only way to stop the witch hunt is to get scientifically educated people into LE, politics and lobbying organisations.

People making and enforcing the law don't have scientific backgrounds. Usually their worst crime is ignorance and trying to protect their job. Their studies and life choices are specifically geared to careers in the area of the law. They have no other skills than being a politician or enforcing the law. So they must make sure they are needed.




One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 06:32


Quote: Originally posted by vulture  
The only way to stop the witch hunt is to get scientifically educated people into LE, politics and lobbying organisations.



That's pretty tough for a number of reasons. The mind-set doesn't invite that. A fellow who gravitates to a "black & white" mentality often does not have a mind that enjoys the scientific principal or for that matter; not having an emotional investment in being "correct" (or not "incorrect")
There ARE sci-educated persons in LE but generally they are not "sworn officers" and therefore not part of the "club" or promotion-list "in-crowd".




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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 06:36


Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
Just because you use logic, IrC, does not mean they will use it.

"Don't like it, so it must be dangerous"


I think it's a matter of "I don't understand it, so it must be dangerous."
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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 06:43


Quote: Originally posted by psychokinetic  
Quote: Originally posted by quicksilver  
household chemicals have becomes smoke-able mescaline laced with tropical frog poison.


... What is this I don't even.




It was an attempt to show the DEPTH of scientific inaccuracy.




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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 07:50


Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
It is unfortunately a familiar story: harmless man has unusual hobby, neighbors and police shudder with fear. If your neighbors see your vacuum chamber, expect them to call the police. If you have nitric acid plus a few products from Home Depot, expect those police to say you exposed neighbors to "a grave risk of death."

Perhaps it is different outside the United States, but in the USA you do not want strangers to discover your hobby even if you are doing nothing with drugs and explosives and otherwise behave responsibly (...)

Really, it is not different outside US :)
I know cases when neighbors were right and a hobbyst living next to them was making bad use from "nitric+glycol".
I know cases where a hobbyst blown up his unit in a flat.
I personally know people living with 500 kg of KClO3 under bed, in their home.
I know case when a hobbyst came from "good chemistry" via "pyro" to "drugs" and at some moment he dissapeared from all forums (but this story does not end yet in this point).
I know people having fun with detonations "things" filled with nails, in a forest and watching trees later......
etc... etc....
Chemistry is very specific hobby where it is extremely easy to make bad use from good things.
There is no any certainty that Polverone makes only "innocent" things instead of, let us say MDMA.
Similary, kmno4 can make PETN for local "mafia".
For me it can be stupid but for neighbors and police it can be possible.

Have you heard about Josef Fritzl and his "hobby" ?
He also did not want others to discover it :P
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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 07:56


Are you making a case for guilty till proven innocent?



One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 10:43


The problem is that in many cases, the ignorance of the legal system gets covered up by 'staying the course', continuing to press charges against individuals which evidence shows innocence, just so they don't look bad and lose cases.

If someone is suspected of something, investigate.
-> if they are guilty of something, continue investigation and charge with the appropriate crimes
-> If they are not guilty...
--> the right thing to do would be to drop the case
--> the wrong thing to do would be to imagine conspiracy with the intent of either making an example out of someone, thinking 'you know better', etc.
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[*] posted on 12-12-2010 at 14:38


Quote: Originally posted by vulture  
Are you making a case for guilty till proven innocent?


I believe that now in this brave new 21st century LEO and all government officials, combined with all media and most of the public, function in no other way but "guilty". After all they have unlimited money to find a way to prove you guilty. Truth no longer matters. This all stemming from their out of control hysterical fear and terror, a state they must exist in at all costs. Never will they learn that to live in this much fear is to not live at all. So in the end they are protecting nothing.

If the board did not limit me in file size I would attach an mp3 of King Crimson's '21st century schizoid man'.

I can at least add the lyrics.

Lyrics to 21st Century Schizoid Man :
(Fripp/Sinfield/McDonald/Lake/Giles)

Cat's foot iron claw
Neuro-surgeons scream for more
At paranoia's poison door.
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Blood rack barbed wire
Politicians' funeral pyre
Innocents raped with napalm fire
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Death seed blind man's greed
Poets' starving children bleed
Nothing he's got he really needs
Twenty first century schizoid man

Look around at all the things going on in the world today and compare this to the lyrics. Amazing they wrote this in 1969 isn't it?




[Edited on 12-13-2010 by IrC]




"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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[*] posted on 13-12-2010 at 07:13


Love thy neighbour! Well, at least get friendly with the bastards before you decide to open the closet and pull out your uniqueness! This way you'll be more approachable while it will be more difficult for them to call the cops. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, that is so frikken true on so many levels that you can call it a survival skill. Keep a spot for the gullible and stupid right there next to those enemies.



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Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com
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[*] posted on 13-12-2010 at 13:05


Quote:
Love thy neighbour!

Yeah! Bring her upstairs to see your lithographs . . .

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[*] posted on 30-12-2010 at 09:44


I have mixed feelings about this and both agree and disagree with both hissingnoise and vulture earlier in the thread.

Reading this story, it feels like this unfortunate guy is probably getting caught up in some residual (local Police department) resentment of his brother's case, almost exactly a year ago.

I mean, let's reflect... his brother is doing some amateur experimenting, manages to burn his entire house down, seriously injures himself and then royally pisses-off the local PD and FD by (will be viewed as) colluding with his mother and not cooperating.

I think that if I was the local police, I'd jump to the wrong conclusions as well. It's wrong but people tend to assume that 'bad' runs in families.

As a comedian I like once joked... "Ya know, every street has that ONE family, trouble is... on my street it was MY family!"

I don't much care about what the cops think but I do tend to care about the job that firefighters have to do.

That said, there's also the obstruction and resisting arrest charges. Sounds like he probably badly played his initial responses when the cops first showed-up, or maybe the police had already made the connections with his brother before arriving, and were determined to nail him from the get go.

It really underlines the advice that some of the more assertive members will often recommend here, being that when faced with a situation like this, it will sometimes be better to simply demand their warrant, your lawyer and your rights and not budge an inch.

Trouble with that is that a). In practice, it requires balls that many of us don't have, b). You are guaranteed to then be completely on the wrong side of the cops from there on (kiss goodbye to getting away with a friendly chat about your home science experiments) and c). There's not much of a guarantee that they won't kick your door down anyway, warrant or no. I mean, If they can do it to retrieve a prototype iPhone from a journalist/blogger with seemingly no consequences, then they will have free reign to do it in a situation where they could be protecting public safety, dealing with a dangerous terrorist, drug cook etc. etc.

I expect I'll get hammered for this view but oh well...



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[*] posted on 30-12-2010 at 22:51


If the cops are banging on your door demanding entrance, you're clearly considered suspicious and any apparent friendliness will be the good cop bad cop routine.

If they don't have a warrant and they're demanding entrance, there's a good chance they're doing so because they can't get a warrant. Stand your ground. Don't even open the door - talk to them through it, or ignore their presence outright. (Answering is not required by law!) If they don't have a warrant, and they smash their way in leaving evidence of illegal entry (this is why you keep the door locked!), the case will be tossed.




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[*] posted on 31-12-2010 at 21:37


were i am a local LEO got caught with a lab makein and selling N-methyl-1-phenylpropan-2-amine

here is the best part, No jail, next to No monetry punishment

and the judge went so light because of his outstanding record with the police grrrrrrrrrrr

and people get time just for glass in some places n thy never ever made a drug :(

ill see if i can find the paper and scan the whole story there's bit more to it

this dude was part of local drug squad hmmmmm should have been harsher for that fact alone

and damn it caused local community to lash out :o

sux so bad :mad:

[Edited on 1-1-2011 by starch]
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[*] posted on 31-12-2010 at 23:43


Quote: Originally posted by vulture  
The only way to stop the witch hunt is to get scientifically educated people into LE, politics and lobbying organisations.

People making and enforcing the law don't have scientific backgrounds. Usually their worst crime is ignorance and trying to protect their job. Their studies and life choices are specifically geared to careers in the area of the law. They have no other skills than being a politician or enforcing the law. So they must make sure they are needed.


In the United States, we do have scientists (typically analytical chemists with undergraduate diplomas) in law enforcement. They work for agencies such as Dept. of Homeland Security; the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms; and the Drug Enforcement Administration. They serve as professional witnesses in court cases when called upon. However, they NEVER testify for the defense--only for the prosecution.




"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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[*] posted on 12-6-2011 at 20:48
Unfortunately true...


"Then if they want you, that's exactly what will happen. :(

Be careful people! You may not be making drugs, explosives or chemical weapons but that doesn't mean much to the police! It's still suspicious to them as they're usually completely ignorant, and the DA will always want another scalp to nail to the wall. "


Unfortunately you are 100% correct. There are now so many LE agencies just dying for an excuse to get all kitted up and perform a dynamic entry on some poor schmuck who gave them the slightest pretext. They won't bother with little details like investigating, contacting the subject, trying a normal arrest. Oh no; off goes your door.

The LE world, both state and Federal, in the US is completely out of control. Most Americans are completely ignorant on how bad it's gotten. Think of our being molested by the TSA before we can fly. Did you know basically ANY Federal employee can carry a loaded, concealed weapon on your plane? With no proven training. It's true. And we're not just talking the FBI here. All of those freaking three letter tax wasting places: DOJ, EPA, IRS, HHS, all of them. One of my high school friends works for the Bureau of Prisons as a clerk. He always carries when he travels. He just shows his ID to the TSA goons and they waive him through. Incredible!

And everybody has a SWAT team armed with automatic weapons that none of us taxpaying "bosses" of theirs can possess. Now do any of them have a legitimate need for this? No. So they go looking for any reason to "take the gloves off" Just a couple of days ago one of these teams from the Dept. of Educ!!! crashed into a home and hauled off a guy because of his estranged wife's STUDENT LOAN!!! In another recent case the local police did the same thing to guy who they though had some child porn on his computer. His crime, he didn't secure his wireless router. And a neighbor, who had child porn on his computer; used this poor moron's network. Did nice Officer Friendly check this out before they blew the guy's door in? Of course not. They want to use all those soldier toys and are always looking for an excuse.

And it's even more depressing for me. When I told my wife about the child porn thing, her reply was: "Good, some kid could've been in danger." And this is from a very conservative Republican, MS Engineering, as logical as you can get woman. But the cops know how to play to those fears: child porn, kids in danger. Not that I'm defending the scum, but they are overwhelming peaceful. Certainly in a ratio where the balance of our freedom from having our door blown in by an overzealous SWAT team for no good reason vastly outweighs the infintesimal chance that such an LE action will actually "save" some one.

It's so bad I'm not sure anything short of full insurrection by the populace can stop it. It's just irresistible to all these Feds. If any of them don't have SWAT teams, I'm sure the post Bin Laden euphoria will see them deciding: "hey we need one, where do I sign up?"

Ugh, I'd best stop. This topic always raises my BP to dangerous levels.
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[*] posted on 13-6-2011 at 08:05


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Got any for this one?
Quote:
Just a couple of days ago one of these teams from the Dept. of Educ!!! crashed into a home and hauled off a guy because of his estranged wife's STUDENT LOAN
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[*] posted on 13-6-2011 at 14:30


all i can say is fuck the lot of them they are nothing but dirty filthy scum.
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[*] posted on 13-6-2011 at 19:43
Well..


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2731760/posts

Now to be fair a Ed Dept. spokesman said later:

"Yesterday, the Depart of Education's office of inspector general executed a search warrant at Stockton California residence with the presence of local law enforcement authorities.

While it was reported in local media that the search was related to a defaulted student loan, that is incorrect. This is related to a criminal investigation. The Inspector General's Office does not execute search warrants for late loan payments.

Because this is an ongoing criminal investigation, we can't comment on the specifics of the case. We can say that the OIG's office conducts about 30-35 search warrants a year on issues such as bribery, fraud, and embezzlement of federal student aid funds."


So if they're telling the truth, then they only do the SWAT kind of thing for fraud or embezzlement related to student loans. Frankly I'm still appalled. Can you think of ANY reason relating to Dept of Educ and citizen interaction that would warrant this behavior? Why not a simple knock on the door? A simple TRY to 1st arrest someone. That's the real problem. LE, at all levels, is constantly moving away from basic arrest. SWAT teams and such such only be used in the rarest of circumstances; which is how they were designed.

For instance, how often has the Army's Delta Force or Seal Team 6 (or DevGrp as it's currently known) been used for their founding mission of hostage rescue? Maybe once? Now they're superb soldiers so other uses were found, but those were in combat. How about the FBI's vaunted Hostage Rescue Team. They've never rescued a hostage. Though one of their snipers who can supposedly put bullets into a half inch circle at 200 yds put one into the head of an unarmed nursing mother. At 200 yds.

They have no legitimate mission so they keep looking for one. And the criteria gets broader and broader. I just read an article in a gun magazine where they covered our Immigration and Custom's Dept SWAT teams. They have ten or so. Do they really need that many? Of course not. But who says no to them?

OK I' ranting I'll stop.
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[*] posted on 16-6-2011 at 15:32


Anyone else find it interesting how so many people are so risk averse as to try to live like they were immortal, and always die anyway?

Live like you're dying. Take sensible risks but most importantly, live free.

There are two things which enslave a man: fear and desire (the idols of wealth, power, sex, drugs, booze, etc.)




I can sell the following:
1) Various high purity non-ferrous metals - Ni, Co, Ta, Zr, Mo, Ti, Nb.
2) Alkex para-aramid Korean Kevlar analogue fabric (about 50% Du Pont's prices)
3) NdFeB magnets
4) High purity technical ceramics
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[*] posted on 16-6-2011 at 16:03


Quote: Originally posted by IndependentBoffin  
Anyone else find it interesting how so many people are so risk averse as to try to live like they were immortal, and always die anyway?

Live like you're dying. Take sensible risks but most importantly, live free.

There are two things which enslave a man: fear and desire (the idols of wealth, power, sex, drugs, booze, etc.)



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The Economist 11xii10

But for whom does a license plate speak? In a sense, it clearly speaks for
the government. It communicates that a particular car has been registered
by a particular state. But the law also recognizes that the humans in charge
of the car have some say, too. The Supreme Court recognized as much in a
1977 decision, Wooley v Maynard, which held that New Hampshire could
not require plates bearing the state motto "Life Free or Die". Alternatives
had to be introduced (presumably to cater for those who preferred a life
of servitude).

I wonder were I put my copy of Venus in Furs?

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