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Author: Subject: Glycine Perchlorate
PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 13-1-2023 at 06:29


Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy  
--Philou, that is excellent info on the diketopiperazine. I think a nitramide variation is interesting but the diketopiperazine should in itself make its own metal complexes shouldnt it? I think tetrazole lover in the past prepared piperazine extracted from OTC dewormer. IIRC in a comment he stated that piperazine perchlorate complexes were some of his preferred initiation compounds. I can attempt a controlled decomp. I have aspartic acid and glycine on hand.
[Edited on 13-1-2023 by Hey Buddy]

The difference in structure between glycine and di-keto-piperazine explains why glycine (what displays a free primary amine R-NH2) can do complexation and why di-keto-piperazine (what is a cyclic di-amide (R-NH-CO-R')) shouldn't do so easily... urea or other amide (to my knowledge) doesn't complexate well or at all... I never noticed or eard of color change from urea/amides and transition metals salts like Fe(2+), Ni(2+), Co(2+), Cu(2+), Cr(3+), Mn(2+)... :( although to be sure I should have a spectrophotometer to detect any peak variation or shift in absorbance...


[Edited on 13-1-2023 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 13-1-2023 at 14:42


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
glycine sulfate and sodium perchlorate maybe? ammonium perchlorate is a pain on its own- for safety we should maybe try to produce glycine chlorate as homemade perchlorate can oftenly contain some chlorate

as for getting it out of solution, i would imagine somehow getting the GlyClO4 into maybe- acetone, then adding in an excess of polar solvent, or a mixture of solvents that shifts the polarity and crashes out the salt

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/deepweb/assets/sigmaaldrich/mar...

this would claim acetone isnt miscible with anything, methanol seems to go into hexane and heptane, this is very easy to get from lighterfluid for zippo, distill out of gasoline, around 70*C fraction, or sold under names such as "washingbenzine" in europe

now, a sodium salt was mentioned- if thats possible, should an ammonium salt also not be possible to be formed? ammonium picrate was used a lot. forming a salt could maybe make it easier to pull out of solution
maybe good ol' DCM can help? the hygroscopicity is a major drawback, but the added difficulty could hopefully hint at it being very powerful

ammonium permanganate can also be made- and may be possible to combine in similar fashion, its a fair bit more unstable than ammonium perchlorate, so it could potentially be some kind of primary

perchlorate salts are very attractive especially if one can make them from chlorate by melting, half an hour at 300+*C didnt seem to do much for sodium chlorate. sodium perchlorate can be extracted using acetone- coming to think of it, glycine sulfate could maybe be combined with sodium perchlorate in acetone? and then simply shift the polarity, or let the acetone evaporate- as it usually does very well due to its high vapor pressure, let this occur at a very slight vacuum to supposedly keep moisture out and you would have a very practical route

EDIT: glycine chlorate is a real thing and its a primary! albeit, in the form of a coppersalt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0X0qZF6DeM

[Edited on 11-1-2023 by Antiswat]

To avoid chlorate into perchlorate batches usually you mix it with a little HCl... HCl sets HOClO2 free and mutual oxidoredox destroys it into Cl2, Cl2O, ClO2, HOCl, HOClO and O2...then swirling and heat-venting makes it chlorate free. I think it was displayed into a Laboratory of Liptakov's YT video. HCl is not acting onto HClO4... only onto HOCl, HOClO and HOClO2.

Usually chlorate salts of amines are not a good idea... such are often very sensitive and on the edge of decomposition... most known salts decompose with time from various stimuli (heat, friction, hydrolysis by slight acidity, shock, and probably even more like spontaneous oxydoredox probably forming chloramines or chloramides related to NF3, -NF2, -NF-, =NF... but based onto chlorine... remember that CH3-NCl2 or Cl2N-CH2-CH2-NCl2 or bromo derivatives are quite powerful energetics about as powerful and sensitive as NG (See Axt tread about those)... the driving force of the explosive decomposition is the formation of HCl or HBr (instead of HF) such explosions generate a big black cloud of carbon sooth.
See chlorates like NH4ClO3, N2H5ClO3 have bad reputation of sensitivity and spontaneous decomposition.
A glycine chlorate will probably be quite powerful and sensitive... but also a serious risk of fire, deflagration or detonation upon storage...better put it into a soft recipient under shielding and away from breakable/fragile stuffs.

Glycine will probably react with aceton since ketons do form imines with amines...
(R-)2C=O + H2N-R' --> (R-)2C(-OH)-HN-R' --> (R-)2C=N-R' + H2O

Aceton is quite miscible with a lot of things including water in all proportions, ethanol, ether, ... but also hydrophilic or lipophilic compounds... it also dissolves some various salts but solubility is not straightforward...
NaCl is unsoluble while NaI is soluble (that is the base of the halide exchange reaction to go from R-Cl to R-I from R-Cl and NaI saturated into aceton and resulting in precipitation of NaCl.

Also NaClO3 is soluble and NaClO4 is even more... a simple Sohxlet extration will leave NaCl behind from a mix of NaCl, NaClO3 and NaClO4 (NaClO4 can be made by melting NaClO3 and leave some NaCl behind... indeed mp NaCl > Tdéc NaClO4> mp NaClO4 > Tdéc NaClO3 > mp NaClO3)...so aceton extraction is interesting into that very specific example (this doesn't work wel for KClO3 and KClO4)...
I have used the thermo-disproportionation technique and it works wel... you just need to heat to melting and keep it at that temperature and max 40-50°C above the MP until the clear liquid starts to leave white crystals in the bottom of the test tube (NaCl and NaClO4).No O2 bubbles... you have made a succesful perchlorate formation from a chlorate salt.
4 NaOClO2 (l) -heat-> 3 NaOClO3(s) + NaCl(s)

The solubility of NaClO3/NaClO4 into aceton is not terrific but sufficient and it works wel under the recirculating solvent extration process of Sohxlet... then you extract NaClO4 and NaClO3 (as a minor amount of impurity)... the remaining is non extractible NaCl.
This also was illustrated into one of Laboratory of Liptakov's YT videos.

NH4 picrate or NH4MnO4 have nothing to do with glycine perchlorate, glycine chlorate or complexes of transition metal oxidizing salts with glycine ...those ammonium salts have totally different stories and properties.

As mentionned earlier glycine and NH3 have like pKa/pKb and as such enters into competition for complexation or acid catching. The advantage of NH3 being its volatility and easier gazeification with low heating and low pressure/vacuum... so it will leave the system on its own if in the open.


[Edited on 14-1-2023 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 14-1-2023 at 14:23


about NH4ClO3 it was tested by Dornier335A and he found it to be a bit disappointing, seemed sort of stable even, ammonium bromate however woelen have videos of, extremely unstable.
ah yes it may oxidize the glycine ... into with some luck nitroethane?

the chlorate salt of copper and glycine is a primary- the bromate would probably be much more so





~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
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[*] posted on 15-1-2023 at 05:03


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
about NH4ClO3 it was tested by Dornier335A and he found it to be a bit disappointing, seemed sort of stable even, ammonium bromate however woelen have videos of, extremely unstable.
ah yes it may oxidize the glycine ... into with some luck nitroethane?

the chlorate salt of copper and glycine is a primary- the bromate would probably be much more so


Yes NH4ClO3 is isolable but storage is unadvisable and unwise...once I planned to make a few kg batch because a bit disappointed by NaClO3 pyro-mixes and then I thought about NH4ClO4 what is quite good... so maybe NH4ClO3 would be great... but then I soon found about uncompatibility between NH4(+) and ClO3(-) (I was already aware of the uncompatibility between S/SO3/H2SO4 and chlorates)...and this changed my mind (just a few days prior my big batch of reacting large amounts of Ba(ClO3)2 or Ca(ClO3)2 solutions with (NH4)2SO4, then filtrating/centrifugating unsoluble BaSO4/CaSO4, and concentrate/evaporate/crystallize desired NH4ClO3... (I was about 18...now 47...stil 21 fingers).

Bromate and iodate are aswel...energetic and unstable.

Maybe disapointing in low quantities and unconfined but just like NH4NO3...amount/larger quantities may reveal a real danger and power.
I think I should test those in parallel for power and energetic properties...The exotic halide atom may bring some serious density increase (what is usually good for brisance and VOD...but also heavy gases may be a dead-weight and slowering detonation gases and reduce power?)

I think NH4 perbromate must be quite energetic and sensitive vs NH4ClO4.
BrO4(-) will improve density but also electrical oxydation power ( thus electric potential and ease of oxydation of NH4(+)... thus increased speed of reaction and power).

To stick transition metals arround chlorate, bromate, iodate or perchlorate, perbromate and periodate anions of amine complexes as mentionned into a past post into a complex/or exotic primary tread... is like boosting the sensibility and catalysing the sensitivity (ease of D2D by heat, shock or friction) of energetic aminium salts...

I do agree with you Cu(ClO3)2 and Cu(BrO3)2 and Cu(glycinate)2 must be very interesting investigation priorities...for primary field.

I am sure oxydoredox of ClO3(-) or BrO3(-) and HO2C-CH2-NH2 will never lead to CH3-CH2-NO2 (conversion of -CO2H to -CH3 is not possible with a strong oxydant ;)... but maybe (stil in doubt about it) it may lead to nitromethane if -NH2 could be oxydized to -NO2... then it would decarboxylate (like conventional synthesis of nitromethane from O2N-CH2-CO2H made from chloroacetic acid/ chloroacetate via halide exchange with a NO2(-) carier (like AgNO2 or from NaNO2, KNO2, LiNO2 into specific solvents).
Axt had tried to make nitramide and dinitramide from R-NHX and R-NX2 (X= Br or Cl)... with a moderate (but full of hope/promise) transitory success?

I thought more modestly to susbtitution of X(-) with OH(-) to maybe lead to R-N(-OH)2 and then R-N=O + H2O
I never found any reference of that experiment except maybe an obsure old mention in a book about degradation of NCl3 that lead to NO2(-) and NO3(-).
I was hoping converting easy accessible (but dangerous and explosive) NCl3 into valuable nitrite and nitrate anion...and to transpose this to organic R-NX2 with as results nitroso and nitro compounds.

In this case of glycine, I think the result may be diazo-diglycine (via a nitrosoacetic acid)...
HO2C-CH2-NH2 + O=N-CH2-CO2H --> HO2C-CH2-NH-N(-OH)-CH2-CO2H
--> HO2C-CH2-N=N-CH2-CO2H + H2O



[Edited on 15-1-2023 by PHILOU Zrealone]

[Edited on 15-1-2023 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 22-1-2023 at 14:11


Quote: Originally posted by Etanol  
Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy  
I began looking into amino acid ligands. Glycine perchlorate is reported to be:
1.89 g/cc
+13.67% (CO) OB
Vd 8470 m/s
32.26 GPa
>60 J IS
>360 N FS
mp 103 C
Td 263 C
("Insensitive Ionic bio-energetic materials derived from amino acids" Zhang, "Scientific Reports" 06 Oct 2017)

[Edited on 19-12-2022 by Hey Buddy]


How was estimadet VoD and detonation pressure?
It is very much for these compound at 1.89g/cc. May be c.a. 8000 m/s 25 GPa?

As they explained into their article in page 9-10, they used a Kamlet-Jacobs equations type... but those are usually used into the case of CHNO explosives with some succes but not with other atoms like Cl... although I suppose maybe some adaptations/modifications or inclusions could now be made for those cases(?)
No wonder values are or seem inconsistant or practically off by a lot.




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[*] posted on 22-1-2023 at 14:42


Sadly I noticed by now that their study was far from complete and that they left aside the most interestings natural occuring amino-acids... the complexing ones and/or basic ones (holding extra amine, guanidine or basic cycloamine into the lateral chain of the amino-acid)...

They exposed Glycine (what is great because the shortest and simpliest amino-acid and thus displaying a good OB (or higher oxydiser/fuel ratio) aside with Alanine, Serine, Asparagine, Valine, isoLeucine, Leucine and Proline as their perchlorate or nitrate... but those are obviously less performing than some forgotten ones...

They stupidly forgot Lysine, Arginine, Histidine, Ornithine, Citruline, Pyrolysine... :mad: and those should have displayed higher densities and OB because able to host 2 or sometimes 3 HClO4(or HNO3) moeities... what a pitty blindness.

[I will edit this soon to detail a bit each of the valuable naturally occuring amino-acid left aside...]

[Edited on 22-1-2023 by PHILOU Zrealone]




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[*] posted on 23-1-2023 at 18:55


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
[rquote=679828&tid=159159&
As they explained into their article in page 9-10, they used a Kamlet-Jacobs equations type... but those are usually used into the case of CHNO explosives with some succes but not with other atoms like Cl... although I suppose maybe some adaptations/modifications or inclusions could now be made for those cases(?)
No wonder values are or seem inconsistant or practically off by a lot.

Oh thanks. I was hoping another method.
The Kamlet-Jacobs equation does not always provide the correct result even for CHNO substances. For example, with a high nitrogen content. The volume of gases from 1 kg of water at normal pressure is 28/18 from 1 kg of nitrogen. But nitrogen gives a greater contribution to pressure and VoD than water.
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[*] posted on 18-5-2023 at 21:15


I'm back on glycine perchlorate again. The original samples from direct NH4ClO4 displacement have been stored until this last week. The samples appeared to have a slight color change, browning. I attempted to melt cast the samples. They would not melt. Im not sure what to make of that. I attempted a double displacement of glycine and ammonium perchlorate with equivalent HCl. The solution was boiled down to precipitation and then dried over night. A white powder dries out of evaporated solution. This material was put in a pan over 120 C and it melted easily. I have cast a test cylinder for firing. The glycine perchlorate made this way casts very densely and is probably the best material I've casted with. It seems denser than TNT and is very flat and smooth on its surfaces. There are no air bubbles nor off gassing during melting. I tried to burn a piece to see if it's burn flame matched the images from earlier in the thread. It did not behave with a large flame as in the pictures but rather fires off gaseous hisses through out burning and in this limited test the material didnt entirely catch fire and required continuous flame to decompose. I tested some of the first old material by firing against a can, it explodes in small mass and has a low critical diameter. I have fired it as low as 50 mg mass in confinement. I will churn out some more glycine perchlorate and continue testing but it's a pretty useful material simply from the castability alone.

UPDATE:

apparently glyClO4 melt cast detonates from a cap of NAP directly with no booster. I loaded a 1"x1.5" cylinder. couldn't find anything remaining in the dirt.
I only made one sample as a test, so now I will replicate

[Edited on 19-5-2023 by Hey Buddy]
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[*] posted on 19-5-2023 at 15:53


Update?

How does the power compare to ETN? If it is detonating from NAP is it sensitive?

At max density 8kms should be more impressive than RDX, as being a powder is never compressed enough.
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[*] posted on 19-5-2023 at 16:51


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Update?

How does the power compare to ETN? If it is detonating from NAP is it sensitive?

At max density 8kms should be more impressive than RDX, as being a powder is never compressed enough.


Here is a sitrep:
It looks good, Im really pleased. but it's not settled at all. First, there are some issues with the production methods and their products. I'm not entirely sure that only glycine perchlorate is being produced. Or how much of the material is being converted to glycine perchlorate. Is it 100%, 90%, 80%? This I dont know. Obviously the way around that is to use HClO4. In my opinion, HClO4 is a last resort because it adds a magnitude of effort to an otherwise effortless preparation. The two preparations Ive used so far at small <20 g samples:
1) Reflux NH4ClO4 + Glycine in a beaker, several hours, evaporate, dry.
2) Reflux NH4ClO4 + HCl + Glycine in a beaker, several hours, evaporate and dry.

Method 1 produces a powder which appears to melt above 100 C and less than 140 C. I did not try casting with the material, only tested if it melted in correct range. This material detonates in small masses ~50 mg+. This material undergoes some browning over months of storage in air tight container. This material after long storage lost its ability to melt at the same temperature range as before.

Method 2 produces a white powder that melts between 100-120 C. It melts very easily and homogenous pour that isnt too thick or thin. I casted this material into a 1x1.5" PEX line, buried it in dirt. Primed it with an NAP cap of stainless steel. There is a hole in the ground wide enough for my hand and ~8" deep. With pulverized dirt on the edges. I found no remaining plastic in the hole, no shreds, no powder or melt cast material. I went back out to the hole again and dug out the pulverized dirt and recovered 2 strips of flat stainless steel from the blasting cap. The hole was impressive for the size of the charge. It was a small charge so when it detonated in dirt the report wasnt impressive to the ear.

The sensitivity of GlyClO4 is supposed to be very low. I will hammer test for impact on the next batch to verify insensitivity. Overall, it is capable of doing work. It's hard to say from only one small charge shot, but it seemed less powerful than Comp B but more powerful than TNT. The hole was more than I would expect from TNT. Overall it just needs a lot more testing. I also think maybe some of the amino acids not from the original paper would be worth trying because if they can hold a positive OB with the oxidizer addition and melt at low temp, it could be the perfect cast carrier. I think glycine perchlorate for the price and availability and ease of preparation is really good, already. TNT and even TNP is way more effort and time in production compared to this. Even the NQ eutectic melts are more time/effort.
I need to distill some nitric and try the AspNO3, it should be boiling water bath meltable. Glycine is about twice as cheap as aspartic acid...

And it melts well, the glyClO4. It is very workable, pourable. dries so flat. Hardens like a thermo plastic. I may try a couple with Al to see if they thermobaric...

I think a high energy material like ANQN or K-6 would be well within the safe temp of cast and would probably be pretty high performance for cast comps. I wonder if ANQN would be protected and stabilized further by the melt cast?

[Edited on 20-5-2023 by Hey Buddy]

UPDATE:
I just went out to measure the actual hole and Im glad I did because my assumption of 8" was way overblown. It was really about ~5". Diameter was around ~4".
Still, GlyClO4 is looking pretty good in my book.

IMG_0818.jpg - 838kB IMG_0819.jpg - 784kB



[Edited on 20-5-2023 by Hey Buddy]
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 01:28


Okay

To be an honest man I am comparing this to DAUN with 9000ms VOD and melt cast below 100C I can’t say I see advantages But I would like to be convinced
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 03:09


I tried a mixture af DU and AP at 1:1 molar ratio and boiled down. DU is a weak base so no NH4 come off, or very little. Most likely it was a mixture of DUPer DU and AP. The thing did not want to crystalize like DUNitrate. After adding a bit of Cuo and heating NH4 come out and a light violet powder formed. Most likely a Cu complex of DUPerch. It did not seemed energetic, it did not burned even with a flame but continuous heating left almost nothing. It is not a primary for sure. I will probably try the nickel salt but i dont expect much. Maybe a chlorate salt would do something. I will probably made some aminonitro urea from DUnitrate and H2SO4 and test its properties. It seems that you can not do much with DU. Aminnitrourea could probably be far better than DU

In my opinion DU does not worth since i bought it at the same price as Aminoguanidine from Alibaba. AmGu is much more useful than DU.

[Edited on 20-5-2023 by underground]
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 08:19


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
Okay

To be an honest man I am comparing this to DAUN with 9000ms VOD and melt cast below 100C I can’t say I see advantages But I would like to be convinced


I've never made DAU so I cant compare the two characters. In terms of preparation, DAU is a lot harder to prepare than buying glycine. I think DAU would probably have to be nitrated and would have problems displacing. Is it even verified that it is melt cast and useable? I've read some about it on SM but it all seems to be theoretical. I havent read about case use. I can tell you for sure that a pound of glyClO4 is a lot easier to prepare than a pound of DAUN. For sure. The hardest part is waiting for it to dry. I made 300 g last night and the reaction only took 1.5 hours.
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 12:18


Hey Buddy, in theory you could know how much of your producs is converted to GlPerc by measuring the final product. 1 mole of Glyc is 75,07g. 1 mole of AP is 117,49g. 1 mole of GlycPec is 173.51g. So in theory if you reflux 75,07g of Gly with 117,49g of AP you should take 173,51g as final product if 100% of material is being converted. Now if your final product weights more then ofcourse not all of your product is being converted. By seeing how much of your end product weights you could actually calculate how much of GlyPer is being converted. You could even capture the ammonia that escapes and weight it out to find out how much 100% of material is being converted.


[Edited on 20-5-2023 by underground]
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 13:41



Quote:

1) Reflux NH4ClO4 + Glycine in a beaker, several hours, evaporate, dry. 2) Reflux NH4ClO4 + HCl + Glycine in a beaker, several hours, evaporate and dry.


This is already more time than preparing HClO4 from HCl (aq) and NaClO4.

Method number 2 will produce some mixture of NH4Cl, NH4ClO4, Gly*HClO4, Gly*HCl. It's difficult to say which proportions. I'm also not convinced enough of the ammonia will be driven off by boling glycine with NH4ClO4.

If you add ANQN to a melt consisting of an ionic perchlorate such as GlyP, some of it will be conerted to ANQP which is much more sensitive (1 J impact sensitivity IIRC). It might sensitize such a charge to an unsafe level.
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 14:07


You can actually make Hclo4 from Nh4Clo4 with nitric acid and hydrocloric acid. LL have a very good video about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXpGlgj9_uw&t=16s
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 18:25


Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  


This is already more time than preparing HClO4 from HCl (aq) and NaClO4.


Method number 2 will produce some mixture of NH4Cl, NH4ClO4, Gly*HClO4, Gly*HCl. It's difficult to say which proportions. I'm also not convinced enough of the ammonia will be driven off by boling glycine with NH4ClO4.

If you add ANQN to a melt consisting of an ionic perchlorate such as GlyP, some of it will be conerted to ANQP which is much more sensitive (1 J impact sensitivity IIRC). It might sensitize such a charge to an unsafe level.


-Glycine/NH4ClO4/HCl was only tried because the original two salt method was not melting after some time of storage. The original method is preferrable because it is more correct, in theory, but if it doesnt melt there is no point. So out of curiosity, it was attempted with HCl just in case there was some unforeseen precipitation or possibility of separation. There was no precipitation, so it was boiled down. There are certainly mixed products. I don't know what the melting temps of all of those are, but many of them are high. NH4Cl is over 300 C. Glyicine and NH4ClO4 are 230+ and 200 C decomp. The product of this evaporated mixed product is melting just over 100 C. GlyClO4 is claimed to be 103 C. I would guess due its responsiveness to what amounts to a medium powered cap and the low melt temp, it is likely a high concentration of GlyClO4.

In my opinion, refluxing everything together and drying is fewer steps than preparing HClO4 and then protonating the glycine as a second step and washing/drying. Of course it may be more beneficial to just take the extra step and churn out HClO4.

I agree that in both methods of preparation, the NH3 isn't getting entirely boiled off. It appears to have a diminishing exponent curve in displacement. A lot of it is driven off at first and then it tapers and can be refluxed basically forever with faintly detectable NH3. In the end, there is a degree of mixed product.
The mixed product probably explains why it fits many of the characteristics from the paper, but doesnt respond the same way to flame. There is likely a diminished performance due to mixed product.

The overall question is how well does it perform. This is what needs qualification. If the end product achieves ends then it is worth while. I thought from a small test it seemed to perform a little better than TNT, but its only one impromptu. I didnt even think it would actually fire during the test. So I was surprised and unprepared. My judgement could be off. It could be not really performing that well, whereas perhaps the proper attempt from HClO4 would be high-performance. --The exciting aspect to me is that it melts and pours well, and responds to a blasting cap.

Im finding glycine at ~$14 USD per pound, (lysine is $10/lb). so for a melt cast substrate easier to prepare than TNT, melting under 130 C, this might be the cheapest, next to perhaps some other Amino acid nitrates/perchlorates. Perhaps this method produces an underpowered mixed product, but it appears to still fill a role as a cast carrier. In that case the HClO4 derived GlyClO4 may prove to be even higher performance. Point is, there are not a lot of melt cast explosives. Most of them are unrealistic to produce in anything greater than novelty quantities. TNT production, in any real quantity is a PITA. It is messy and has a lot of waste liquor. There really just arent a lot of melt cast substrates. Eutectics there are more of, emulsions are a dime a dozen, but melt substrates are needed to carry mixtures at high density in useable forms.

Thats a good point about ANQN. Nitrimines and Nitrate esters are likely more compatible with a melt perchlorate loading. I suppose the ANQN could be used with a AspNO3 or other nitrate amino acid melt which may be pretty simple prep after all.

All this stuff needs testing. So while im pleased, it's far from settled. Im just trying to give mineman an update. I made 300 g batch last night which is drying, Im trying to repeat the process for validation. I plan to compare it to a HClO4 glycine in the future. I want to know how different the two are, and if the large flame signature from the paper is repeatable from HClO4/Glycine.

Untitled.jpg - 113kB lysine.jpg - 128kB

[Edited on 21-5-2023 by Hey Buddy]

Microtek, what do you think is a good test of performance for a secondary? The small scale steel perforations on ~2.5mm steel? Or aluminum block witness crater? I think I still have both of those from earlier last year..

[Edited on 21-5-2023 by Hey Buddy]
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 18:27


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
You can actually make Hclo4 from Nh4Clo4 with nitric acid and hydrocloric acid. LL have a very good video about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXpGlgj9_uw&t=16s


Anyone is welcome to pick up some common glycine and make some perchloric acid at any time. It wont bother me the slightest. : )
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[*] posted on 20-5-2023 at 21:14


Quote: Originally posted by underground  
Hey Buddy, in theory you could know how much of your producs is converted to GlPerc by measuring the final product. 1 mole of Glyc is 75,07g. 1 mole of AP is 117,49g. 1 mole of GlycPec is 173.51g. So in theory if you reflux 75,07g of Gly with 117,49g of AP you should take 173,51g as final product if 100% of material is being converted. Now if your final product weights more then ofcourse not all of your product is being converted. By seeing how much of your end product weights you could actually calculate how much of GlyPer is being converted. You could even capture the ammonia that escapes and weight it out to find out how much 100% of material is being converted.


[Edited on 20-5-2023 by underground]


This is a good point but I think to save effort, simply compare HClO4/Glycine product-work with NH4Clo4/Glycine product-work. There is no point to the theoretics if the actual is "good enough", in my opinion.
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[*] posted on 21-5-2023 at 01:51


I would suggest the aluminum block crater if you can make the GlyP fire in "small" charges (otherwise you'll need large aluminum blocks). Alternatively, envision the application of the substance (is it for loading shaped charges, for shattering stone, for excavating holes or maybe for deforming metal?) and then devise a suite of tests that examines these abilities at an appropriate scale. This will tend to give more useable results than more generic tests. For instance, since I'm only working at the ca. 1 g scale, things like NTO which has good theoretical performance, is simply not practical because of critical diameter effects.

About GlyP from glycine and HClO4, you just add them together, then heat to evaporate the water and pour into whatever mold you want. There is no washing or separate drying step (indeed GlyP is much too soluble in water to wash; youu'd simply redissolve it).
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[*] posted on 21-5-2023 at 08:47


disappointing update:
Well, Im still drying out the 2nd batch of glyP to validate the first test. I was mowing the field today and found the section of PEX from the test about 25 meters from the test site. It is expanded but barely damaged, not even ripped apart. Assuming it is the casing from glyP test, it must have fired out of the hole like a rocket. Somehow, despite not destroying the casing, it managed to blow a hole in the ground. Im not sure what exactly to make of that... I found blasting cap segments in the hole at time of test but no casing fragments, so I assumed it was practically destroyed. It's possible it could be a casing from an entirely different test at another time, but I think it is the glyP test. If it is, then glyP made from the salt methods cant be as powerful as TNT. TNT shreds this stuff.

The modified update is: glyP from HClO4 needs to be tested. Mixed salt glyClO4 dodesnt look "as good" as it did. It still melts and fires, but it's certainly no 8km/s. Maybe glyP from salts is a good rocket fuel if it is launching pipes like that?

[Edited on 21-5-2023 by Hey Buddy]
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[*] posted on 21-5-2023 at 08:53


Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  


About GlyP from glycine and HClO4, you just add them together, then heat to evaporate the water and pour into whatever mold you want. There is no washing or separate drying step (indeed GlyP is much too soluble in water to wash; youu'd simply redissolve it).


Okay this is the next step. I will get around to this when I can. I am still evaporating the mixed salt batch and will test sme of its properties maybe for propulsion.
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[*] posted on 22-5-2023 at 02:01


Even high VOD explosives, plastic seems pretty resilient to, especially thick plastic. I am still excited. I think this is a good find!!
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[*] posted on 1-6-2023 at 08:01


Has anyone tried to make it by double replacing glycine hydrochloride and sodium (ammonium) perchlorate in water or another medium.
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[*] posted on 1-6-2023 at 11:36


I havent tried HCl of glycine. I did get some of the cheap Lysine HCl that may hold 2 nitrates. Havent tried it yet though. If you could find a good solvent for dropping out NH4Cl or glyClO4, displacement from an HCl would be beneficial.
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