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Author: Subject: Glycine Perchlorate
MineMan
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[*] posted on 1-7-2023 at 01:05


ANQN ans TNT. I don’t see the point. You’re taking a beyond military explosive and dumbing it down. Even if your 80 percent mix. You would have better performance using 10 percent water and 90 percent ANQN. Water fills the goods quite nice and represents almost near max densities. Even ETN 90 percent and 10 percent water will approach performance near cast. Better yet add 5 percent Al ans use the water as an oxidizer. This will cast into any container. It won’t harden by if it’s sealed who cares.

[Edited on 1-7-2023 by MineMan]
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[*] posted on 1-7-2023 at 06:10


Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  
ANQN ans TNT. I don’t see the point. You’re taking a beyond military explosive and dumbing it down. Even if your 80 percent mix. You would have better performance using 10 percent water and 90 percent ANQN. Water fills the goods quite nice and represents almost near max densities. Even ETN 90 percent and 10 percent water will approach performance near cast. Better yet add 5 percent Al ans use the water as an oxidizer. This will cast into any container. It won’t harden by if it’s sealed who cares.

[Edited on 1-7-2023 by MineMan]


If the topic is military application, ie. Devices:
Explosives aren't used in powder form except in limited application. It isn't practical or ideal, realistically. If one is loading detonators, it isn't apparent how necessary a cast or pbx is. When the vessel becomes something other than small diameter cylinder, then the need of casts and pbx becomes obvious. When an explosive is moved or carried or subjected to higher temperatures, casts and pbxs become needed. Powder isn't suitable. Same goes for water or liquid explosives. Present state of art is casts/pbx. Water should be kept out of explosives in general unless it's for some purpose and going to be used without storage. Water in explosives is part of their natural decomposition as they experience in ambient environment in the ground.
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[*] posted on 1-7-2023 at 11:06


I suppose, but water does fill the voids and increase VOD.

As For PBX. Lots of new developments such as the chitosan nitrate I mentioned.
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[*] posted on 1-7-2023 at 12:16


I'm not familiar with that but I'm always learning new stuff and like contrarian science, so I like the claim. I know you are aware of effects of water with explosives, I only meant as a generality in explosives. Obviously lots of exceptions like immediate emulsion blasting etc

Honestly, with how big of a pool the amino acids are, and after the pronounced dissolving effect of aspNO3, I'm thinking about the possibility of non hygroscopic ionic liquid as an energetic binder in pbx. For example, proline and leucine perchlorates are liquid at room temp and don't decompose until mid 200C. that's a 200 C range of heating that could absorb powdered energetics making a pbx. The aspartic acid plastics were really quite nice for the first hour or so.

[Edited on 1-7-2023 by Hey Buddy]
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[*] posted on 2-7-2023 at 00:40


Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy  
I'm not familiar with that but I'm always learning new stuff and like contrarian science, so I like the claim. I know you are aware of effects of water with explosives, I only meant as a generality in explosives. Obviously lots of exceptions like immediate emulsion blasting etc

Honestly, with how big of a pool the amino acids are, and after the pronounced dissolving effect of aspNO3, I'm thinking about the possibility of non hygroscopic ionic liquid as an energetic binder in pbx. For example, proline and leucine perchlorates are liquid at room temp and don't decompose until mid 200C. that's a 200 C range of heating that could absorb powdered energetics making a pbx. The aspartic acid plastics were really quite nice for the first hour or so.

[Edited on 1-7-2023 by Hey Buddy]


I am down. Sounds promising. I think ANQN is promising as the main filler as well. Or even better the melem N oxides. You seem to have knowledge of what is actually practical for industry and military. The advantages of an active ionic liquid are vast. Could also make a very good propellant being pumped into a simple liquid engine/nozzle.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2023 at 00:40


Quote: Originally posted by Hey Buddy  
I'm not familiar with that but I'm always learning new stuff and like contrarian science, so I like the claim. I know you are aware of effects of water with explosives, I only meant as a generality in explosives. Obviously lots of exceptions like immediate emulsion blasting etc

Honestly, with how big of a pool the amino acids are, and after the pronounced dissolving effect of aspNO3, I'm thinking about the possibility of non hygroscopic ionic liquid as an energetic binder in pbx. For example, proline and leucine perchlorates are liquid at room temp and don't decompose until mid 200C. that's a 200 C range of heating that could absorb powdered energetics making a pbx. The aspartic acid plastics were really quite nice for the first hour or so.

[Edited on 1-7-2023 by Hey Buddy]


I am down. Sounds promising. I think ANQN is promising as the main filler as well. Or even better the melem N oxides. You seem to have knowledge of what is actually practical for industry and military. The advantages of an active ionic liquid are vast. Could also make a very good propellant being pumped into a simple liquid engine/nozzle.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2023 at 04:39


Does anyone know if it is possible for something like pentaerythritol to exchange nitros with perchlorates in its Ester? I mean, if hot melting a nitrate ester into a perchlorate carrier, can a perchlorate ester be a possible unintended reaction? I suppose perchlorate esters must be possible theoretically?

I was thinking ideally for an ionic liquid carrier pbx, erythritol tetranitrate would be ideal. Already common, and over oxygenated, lend some oxygen to a deficient ionic liquid and if it plasticizes, is non hygroscopic, you have a two part all-active pbx from cheap stuff. If it cures too hard, keep it soft with a small qty polyurea grease, which is still nitrogen heavy enough to participate in the detonation redox.

[Edited on 2-7-2023 by Hey Buddy]
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[*] posted on 2-7-2023 at 06:55


It is not possible
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[*] posted on 2-7-2023 at 20:29


Glycine complexes with nickel and ammonium perchlorate resulting in cyan/blue hard crystal that has no melt shelf. appears to decompose at around 150 C. Judging from unreacted nickel carbonate, I would guess the complex is 1x Ni, 2x Gly, 2x NH4ClO4. I suspect the ammonia stays in the complex because it isn't smelled during reaction, or at least I couldn't smell it. Complex appears to contain some energy from combustion test but otherwise seems to not be overly sensitive.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2023 at 00:07


Molten ETN is not an ionic liquid (since it is not an ionic compound), but of course that is mostly semantics. ETN would be a great carrier if the melting point was a little higher and, most importantly, it was a lot less sensitive. You could look into the PTX formulations (Picatinny Ternary eXplosive). They are detailed in PATR2700 IIRC.
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[*] posted on 3-7-2023 at 18:19


Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  
Molten ETN is not an ionic liquid (since it is not an ionic compound), but of course that is mostly semantics. ETN would be a great carrier if the melting point was a little higher and, most importantly, it was a lot less sensitive. You could look into the PTX formulations (Picatinny Ternary eXplosive). They are detailed in PATR2700 IIRC.


Sorry For confusion, I meant ETN in an ionic liquid carrier, as a filler. Not ETN melted as the carrier itself. I composed my thoughts into writing carelessly.

I hope anyone reading this in the future understands that ETN changes sensitivity in the melt phase. People do handle it in melt phase but molten ETN approaches fulminate primary explosives in sensitivity. Personally, I only melt ETN for specific purposes like cheap detonator fills. IMO it's not safe to handle in molten phase in large masses like a secondary.

To be more clear, there are several amino acid nitrates and perchlorates which are liquids at room temperature. For example, Proline is one they report, liquid in both anions. One of these room temp insensitive ionic liquids could act as the other amino acids do, absorbing large amounts of other energetic fillers, and plasticizing. Because the amino acid ionic explosives in question are liquid at room temp, there is a possibility they could plasticize ETN in its solid phase without any application of heat, or perhaps very little heat, under ETN mp, where its more insensitive. In theory, if possible, it should form an insensitive pbx because of the amino acid's insensitivity. The ETN itself lending oxygen to the ionic carrier as a possible benefit over something like penthrite. If the pbx became too stiff after settling, as is seen in other amino acid ionic pbx, it could be softened with a small amount of polyurea grease which has urea chains higher than 30% nitrogen content, thus capable of contributing energy to the overall redox. A pbx with entirely active components from the local fitness nutrition and hardware store. In theory...

There is definitely huge character variability to be found in the amino acids and their potential complexes as well. For instance, GlyNO3 is significantly less hygroscopic than the perchlorate. NiGlyClO4 is entirely non-hygroscopic and also does not melt, unlike glyClO4. So radically different characteristics can be introduced into these materials. Exactly what complex gives which qualities is a shot in the dark however.





[Edited on 4-7-2023 by Hey Buddy]
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[*] posted on 3-7-2023 at 22:59


Ah, ok. Good to know we are on the same page regarding molten ETN. I think the application of ionic liquids as solvents/carriers for more energetic fillers has a lot of potential. We still need to find some that aren't hygroscopic, but if the solvent action of the ionic liquid is high enough (so it can dissolve a lot of high quality secondary), it may not have to be very energetic itself. This must broaden the field, hopefully enough that a good material can be found that isn't hygroscopic.
IIRC, Roscoe posted about a mix of ETN and PETN that was pourable in the molten state and was surprisingly difficult to initiate. Maybe the mechanical sensitivity was also lower than the constituents, but AFAIK, it was never properly investigated.
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[*] posted on 5-7-2023 at 18:27


There are energetic UV cure resins
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[*] posted on 9-7-2023 at 06:30


I tested some other amino acid nitrates. In general the nitrates are more soluble and have lower decomposition temperatures. Isoleucine nitrate is hygroscopic but slightly less than than AspNO3. Its crystal is "harder" than ASpNO3. Its melting point is around 100 C. It melts as a clear yellow tint liquid, very pourable. Proline nitrate is a liquid, it decomposes around 110 C which is lower than reported. It isn't really useable with such a low decomp. There are still several amino acid nitrates that are not reported that could show promise. The perchlorates I will do after I finish nitrates screening for hygroscopicity. Many of the perchlorates have a much wider temp range and are more suitable as candidates for melt casting due to much higher decomposition Temps. Proline is also a liquid as a perchlorate, so I will revisit that as a possible ionic liquid for pbx. It seems there may be chance of eliminating hygroscopicity via metal complexation. Of the metals, Cu Ni Mg seem to be most accessible, not sure if it would be worth it to screen Fe but I will probably try it in form of ferrous carbonate because obviously Fe is the most accessible metal. Usually Fe complexes are more sensitive and less stable than other metals but the amino acids are so stable, they may not present that same trend. Ca and K may also be worthwhile to screen in complexing because I believe tetrazole lover checked a calcium glycine compound that he found nonhygroscpic. If non hygroscopics can be found from calcium complexes, then they seem worth screening for due to easy access to Ca, along with K.

Of everything tested so far, glyClO4 via perchlorate salt is the best melt cast candidate. It's Hygroscopicity is medium, its complex with nickel is entirely non hygroscopic but that complex loses ability to melt which defeats its purpose as melt cast carrier. aspartic acid was unusable as nitrate due to high hygroscopicity but a nitrate metal complex may make it more suitable.
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[*] posted on 9-7-2023 at 08:25


Iron could be very useful as a metal complex cause it can take 3 anions like trinitrate or triperchlorate meaning you can add more oxygen for better OB
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[*] posted on 10-7-2023 at 11:01


Iron complexes are usually pretty hygroscopic and generally have underwhelming properties as compared to accessible metals like Cu and Ni or even Mn and Zn. You might also run into issues of reducing and oxidizing between Fe ii and iii under heating, chem conditions, etc.

@Hey Buddy If hygroscopicity and sensitivity aren’t a concern, why even mess with the more expensive amino acid esters and look through MeNH3+, Me2NH2+, and Me3NH+ nitrate and perchlorate salts. TOVEX has been used for decades as a cheap and reliable agent, and if you just use its prime content (MeAN) as a relatively pure compound, it’ll outperform even TNT and PA with no contest. It is hygroscopic (but I’m sure it’s much less than Gly salts) and nitrate salts would be more chemically stable than those of b-amino acids. Both MeAP and MeAN are cheap, safe, and easy to produce as well. The only drawback is that they’d need to be used in a container since they form eutectic-like mixes with water.
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[*] posted on 10-7-2023 at 14:34


Quote: Originally posted by dettoo456  

@Hey Buddy If hygroscopicity and sensitivity aren’t a concern, why even mess with the more expensive amino acid esters and look through MeNH3+, Me2NH2+, and Me3NH+ nitrate and perchlorate salts. TOVEX has been used for decades as a cheap and reliable agent, and if you just use its prime content (MeAN) as a relatively pure compound, it’ll outperform even TNT and PA with no contest. It is hygroscopic (but I’m sure it’s much less than Gly salts) and nitrate salts would be more chemically stable than those of b-amino acids. Both MeAP and MeAN are cheap, safe, and easy to produce as well. The only drawback is that they’d need to be used in a container since they form eutectic-like mixes with water.


That had never crossed my mind but it seems like something worth trying. IMO the hygroscopicity is a problem in this application (casting or plasticizing) . The glyClO4/NO3 is hygroscopic, yes, but their complexes are not. So far, none of them melt, which defeats the purpose. The KGlyClO4 is also not melting... Overall, they arent looking like they are going to deliver anything spectacular, but Im committed to look a little deeper into common amino acids. Dont want to overlook something from attrition when there is a near-potential there.
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