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blogfast25
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signatures & politics
Personally I believe that political discourse on a science forum should be completely banished: there are plenty of internet forums, blogs and such
like where I hang out and where the feistiest political debate is welcome and encouraged. This forum should not be one of them.
It’s for that reason I was astonished when I clicked on AndersHoveland’s signature, the first link being to churchoftrueisrael.com. Going by the
title I thought it might be a pro-Zionist site (which also, like opposing views to that one, shouldn’t have a place here), instead it turned out to
be a virulently anti-Black and anti-Semitic site. Just a few gems:
”Of course, the Jews and liberals tell us that we are "mean, hateful racists" when we decide that we don't want to live in a "diverse"
neighborhood.”
O-kay… ”Da Joooooos…”
”The Jewish "Big Lie" Tactic and "Useful Psychos"”
”The Jews: Their First Priority Is Always Money”
”Jews Undermine our Freedom”
It’s often said that copies of ‘The Protocol of the Elders of Zion’s still sell well in the Arab/Muslim world. Obviously not only there…
From one of its other pages:
”THE AUTHORS ARE ALL CONCERNED WHITE PEOPLE. They are Racist.
If this offends you, you may want to skip this page.”
You’ve to admire them for their candour, if nothing else!
From Polverone, here:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8349
”There are good technical contributors here from polar opposites of the political spectrum. However, many are afflicted with a reverse Midas
touch (all their words turning to straw and plaster) when it comes to discussing ideological issues. For the sake of this forum's utility as a place
to discuss scientific and technical issues, I'm going to be cracking down on heated discussions. I encourage the other mods to do the same.”
But by allowing the blatantly racist and highly politically charged signature of AndersHoveland it really is a bit like wanting your cake and eating
it too. What exactly would Polverone expect to happen when a Jewish or Black forum member stumbled on Hoveland’s excrements? To take it lying down?
To respect Hoveland’s crapola in the name of ‘free speech’?
Hoveland has the right to his rancid views and racism per se isn’t illegal but putting them on display here is asking for trouble and for others to
perhaps put their extremist left views on display. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I’m now fully expecting a barrage of verbal diarrhoea, involving talk of ‘commies’, ‘cultural Marxists’, ‘censorship’, and ‘liberal
tyranny’.
Knock yourselves out.
[Edited on 27-8-2011 by blogfast25]
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Mixell
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Yea, I've seen that too.
All I can tell that Andres is a member of a very large and diverse group of people,the general name for this group is "idiots".
SM is not a place for political discussion and expression of extreme political and social views, there are plenty of forums that its their sole
purpose.
Also I would like to point out that this society, which is full of hatred, ignorance and blunt idiocy is the one that gave birth to the opinions and
actions of a certain person named Andres Behring Breivik...
And most amusing of all, he put a swastika sign in his signature, how typical 
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blogfast25
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Mixell:
Anders Hoveland and Anders Behring Breivik have a few things in common:
* a first name
* extremist views
* extreme racism
* extreme Islamophobia
* extreme stupidity
* a love of explosive things
Should I get worried?
If I was the foum owner I would be. Just think of the trouble Keten Chemicals got into for bona fida and perfectly legally supplying Anders Dickhead
with some stuff!
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hissingnoise
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Not all people of low intelligence are racist - but all racists are people of low intelligence . . .
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m1tanker78
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Get over yourself! I dare you to walk some of the other streets. Let's see how long your 'non-racist' highness can stay on his soapbox. 
On to the hypocrisy of 'non-haters' hating on the haters...
| Quote: | | Knock yourselves out. |
Please, DO! But take it to whimsy. 
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Mixell
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Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78  |
Get over yourself! I dare you to walk some of the other streets. Let's see how long your 'non-racist' highness can stay on his soapbox.
On to the hypocrisy of 'non-haters' hating on the haters...
| Quote: | | Knock yourselves out. |
Please, DO! But take it to whimsy. |
Your seriously defending racism?
Of-course there are nationalities with a higher than average idiot percentage, but you can't put the rational and peaceful group together with the
extremists.
For instance I do acknowledge that there are quite a lot of "bad people" (terrorists, extremists, and what ever) among the Arabic people, but I never
say "Arabic people are this and that". Don't confuse Arabs/Muslims with Muslim extremists. Judge a person by his attitude/interests/behavior and such,
and not by his faith/sexual-orientation/gender/nationality or race.
[Edited on 27-8-2011 by Mixell]
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | I dare you to walk some of the other streets. |
Other streets?
WTF are you on about?
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m1tanker78
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mixell |
Judge a person by his attitude/interests/behavior and such, and not by his faith/sexual-orientation/gender/nationality or race.
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I'm not defending racism. I'm flaming the hypocrisy of people who claim to be non-racists. I see and hear it all the time and it gets just as
repetitive and lame as the racism, itself.
For example, I have a few friends who'd say, "I'm not racist! I have a buddy that's [your choice of non-white]." I also know people who preach against
racism who won't go to certain supermarkets because there are too many of x there.
People need to respect themselves before anyone else will - no matter what race, gender or skin color! Sometimes it's hard to draw the line between
the so-called rational ones and the extremists.. 
Tank
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blogfast25
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Way to go, Tank! Go and deflect from Anders Hoveland's filth with a bout of what's known as 'whataboutery'!
A round condemnation of cliches about Jews that belong in the Nazi playbook (now available also from your beloved scienceforum, with extra Swedish
flavour!), now that would be dignified. Not that Anders' views on African Americans or Muslims are really any better...
"People need to respect themselves before anyone else will - no matter what race [...]" : in case you hadn't noticed: racism nearly always
flows from the majority to the minority, that makes the latter so vulnerable. Perhaps you think European Jewry pre-Holocaust should also 'have
respected themselves before anyone else'?
Real cute...
[Edited on 27-8-2011 by blogfast25]
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Sedit
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You have never been to the getto?
Does any of this matter? Why isn't this topic locked already? Its goal is complete, it has run its course now you are all using it as a means to
bitch. Geez people if you all so against hate( that goes for those hating the hateful) shut up and leave it at that. I could fill an entire
forum with the hate I got inside of me but you don't see me trying to derail every thread I can. Hate the culture not the person because race is
nothing when it comes to the genetic makeup of a person, only a very small fraction. What matters is the culture they are raised in.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Polverone
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I clicked that link a couple of days ago in Anders' signature. When I realized what he was linking to I sent him a U2U message instructing him to
clear that material from his signature. He has not logged in since then, and it seems that others have now noticed, so I will do the cleanup myself.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Rosco Bodine
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Let me waxe philosophical. There is an inescapable correlation between Love, Beauty, Truth, and Morality that is knit together as Honor and Virtue
but bringing a clue to the clueless about that is like trying to tell a deaf person about music or tell a blind person about an image ....there is a
communication barrier there for the want of the senses to comprehend..... and so is the matter of faith and religion likewise correlated to an
awareness, not a delusion. Every atheist misses the point of what they lack and by displacement assigns a deficiency of reason to where it does not
exist, with the same ease they redefine reality about anything beyond what their five senses and their power of reasoning may tell them.
There are men and women of every race and color who have virtuous qualities just as there are those of every race and color who are lacking. Pedigree
may cause the curve to differ from lineage to lineage ....but no one tribe or clan has
any sole claim to excellence nor to decadence and depravity. None of the races have ascended into a state of perfection ....all of them fall short of
the mark,
so any racists ought to be very careful of generalizations. A man of any race can be a gentleman and a scholar or a lowlife devil.
Whatever color a man may be, he is poorer rather than richer for it, if he cannot call upon and believe in anything divine and beyond himself and the
world, to ask for understanding and guidance and to live a life which would give a good accounting of himself as a moral human being and a good man,
so far as it is possible for a human to be good.
A person who doesn't understand that will never have even the beginning of what is wisdom, will never even glimpse what it's all about, why we are
here
in this world, what it is to be experienced, to know, to learn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoNtj27a6Rk Alfie - Dionne Warwick
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Mixell
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I'm an atheist, and I don't attribute my disbelief in any deity or god to a "quality that I lack". I simply see religion and the world for what it is,
of-course if a god or anything similar that wants the best for mankind would exist, it would be probably a better world. But modern science has
disproved the very basic statements of most religions. I can't say for sure that there is no "higher power" but there is no evidence for its
existence, so most probably- it does not exist. Exactly as Russell teapot. I can even claim that there is a green dragon and manifests itself in my
closet when ever it wants, you can disprove that, but I can't prove that too, so logically- it does not exist as far as you know. Claims and
statements needs to be proven correct in order to be regarded as true, and not be proven as wrong in order to be regarded false.
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Mixell
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Believing things that were not proven as real, to be real, is a delusion. Just like a schizophrenic persons thinks there is a boogie-man in his closet
or under the bed. Or that god speaks to him in his mind...
Everything in the works works fine and is logical without a belief in a god. Some may be mistaken that religion or "god" answer difficult questions
such as the origin of the universe or the origin of life, but in turn they create more questions of greater magnitude.
[Edited on 27-8-2011 by Mixell]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Polverone | | I clicked that link a couple of days ago in Anders' signature. When I realized what he was linking to I sent him a U2U message instructing him to
clear that material from his signature. He has not logged in since then, and it seems that others have now noticed, so I will do the cleanup myself.
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Thank you.
I sincerely believe the line of what is decent and justifiable was crossed with those links and that a forum should not be used as a propaganda
platform for views like those. These links contained no information worth reading, had no relevance to the topic of this forum and would have been
needlessly offensive to any decent person, of whatever tribe.
I would have tirelessly campaigned to have them removed. It appears that is now no longer necessary.
Thanks also to Rosco. I'm an agnostic, yet agree with almost everything you write there. And what was said about holmes/dawson...
[Edited on 27-8-2011 by blogfast25]
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Rosco Bodine
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With regards to philosophy that has merit, you can follow the trail of truth to get to the heart of the matter, just like with economics you can
follow the money.
I never saw an atheist attempt to explain or account for by atheist logic and language not make a futher reach and over reaching actually involving
"faith" in the infallibility of the human that is the foundation of humanism, which doesn't surpass the "confidence" of a believer. It is a further
leap of faith to discount
the existence of the nobler and higher unseen "hand" of a "man behind the curtain" of such a remarkable universe .....when scientific explanation
falls
abysmally short. From my perspective atheism is a supreme arrogance .....
but the agnostic view is more understandable, as the open mind of one
yet a student .....for in truth, aren't we all.
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blogfast25
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Certainly positivist atheism is a nonsense but no more a leap of faith than an unquestioning faith in a creator.
You're talking in very general terms though. When it comes down to it, only a detailed discussion of belief systems can lead to understanding of what
it is exactly that you understand by faith, agnosticism or atheism.
To understand what you mean by faith I'd at least have to know whether you're referring to Theism or Deism, to begin with. It's on Deism that
I'm agnostic, admitting freely that the question of 'First Cause' cannot be satisfactorily answered by either deists or atheists. The difference
between a universe created by an eternal deity (with no point of his creation) and a universe ('stuff' if you prefer) without a beginning (and thus at
least onesidedly eternal and without creator) seems to me to be one without a distiction.
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Mixell
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Well, me and other atheist I know do not strictly say that it is proven that there is no god, of course there is a possibility. I do not believe
things until they are proven true, I do not deny their existence completely, but if they are not proven true, I tend to regard those things as false,
but I do not deny that some evidence could surface that will prove them. So I guess I'm agnostic-atheist or something among those lines. But I do love
the term "naturalist" because it encompasses not only agnosticism toward a deity, but also towards other "supernatural" beings, such as ghost or
demons.
And about the origin of the universe, I find it more logical and consistent with the structure of the universe, that a mass of quite simple particles
appeared at some point or always existed than a being so complex and powerful as a "god" always existed or appeared at some point.
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m1tanker78
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | Way to go, Tank! Go and deflect from Anders Hoveland's filth with a bout of what's known as 'whataboutery'!
A round condemnation of cliches about Jews that belong in the Nazi playbook (now available also from your beloved scienceforum, with extra Swedish
flavour!), now that would be dignified. Not that Anders' views on African Americans or Muslims are really any better...
"People need to respect themselves before anyone else will - no matter what race [...]" : in case you hadn't noticed: racism mearly always
flows from the majority to the minority, that makes the latter so vulnerable. Perhaps you think European Jewry pre-Holocaust should also 'have
respected themselves before anyone else'?
Real cute... |
May I ask why you give these people your time and internet traffic? A google search (my ignorance) for Anders Hoveland brought me right back here to a
year-old thread where someone asks, "why was anders hoveland banned?" This thread also details how 'holmes1880' got banned...
You can offer insight (if you choose) without comparing people to Nazis.
@Rosco Bodine: Nice words and even better timing (going to see a friend today that's been very down). I'm going to pass that on.
Tank
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watson.fawkes
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Well, well, I've
missed the boat. Just yesterday I was preparing a message much like yours about the AndersHoveland signature. The signature text had been shorter, it
had kept growing, and I was growing more angry about it. So I waited, because I prefer my anger crystallized when writing rather than in plasma form.
There was more than even you describe. The other link was to another discussion form, a thread started by a user named, guess!, "AndersHoveland". With
politics as with chemistry, he enjoys referring to himself. The first post there was a long list of anti-Muslim videos, complete with the hysterical
commentary about how immigration will be the downfall of Europe.
What was most disturbing, though, was the motto in the signature: | Quote: | För Sverige, den kära fosterjorden.
Jag byter Dig ej, mot allt i en värld. Nej, jag vill leva jag vill dö i Norden! |
Google's translation from
the Swedish: | Quote: | For Sweden, the beloved native soil.
I change you not, against everything in the world. No, I want to live I want to die in the Nordic countries! |
This is nothing other than a modern day Blood and Soil ideology, less some of the pastoralism found in the German origin of that phrase. While phrase arose in Germany, the sentiment is
hardly unique to Germany, but it has always been associated with nativist totalitarian movements. For a more recent example, consider nativist Serbian
claims on Kosovo, or the various forms of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans in the 1990's. I actually shuddered a little when I first read that
translation, because while I can easily dismiss posturing racism as Internet Tough Guy Syndrome, I cannot dismiss the basically overt threat of
violent action associated with the espousal of Blood and Soil. It's a pretext for action, a pretext for mass murder in the name of the land, in the
name of something that's not me, a distancing mechanism that pushes people farther along the path to atrocity.
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watson.fawkes
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It's difficult to avoid Nazis when
AndersHoveland himself is using Nazi iconography (the swastika) and espousing Nazi ideology (blood and soil).
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by m1tanker78 | May I ask why you give these people your time and internet traffic? A google search (my ignorance) for Anders Hoveland brought me right back here to a
year-old thread where someone asks, "why was anders hoveland banned?" This thread also details how 'holmes1880' got banned...
You can offer insight (if you choose) without comparing people to Nazis.
Tank |
Had you read my post you would know the answer to your first question. I found Hoveland's signature in another of SM's threads, a bit difficult to
avoid actually. He'd only recently started using that kind of signature.
As regards comparing people to Nazis, again that is not what I did. READ.
'1/10 for reading' on this occasion, Tank.
As regards what Watson wrote, I cannot disagree with a syllable there. I’m glad there are still some people that can get worked up about things that
are worth getting worked up about. I never even saw the swastika, go figure... But I did see the link to a Muslim baiting site and Anders' standard
trope on the downfall of Europe by Muslim hands.
Anders Hoveland is Anders Breivik but perhaps w/o the massacring component. Unfortunately that latter component may only be a matter of time before it
develops.
[Edited on 28-8-2011 by blogfast25]
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woelen
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I just now stumble upon this thread (I was offline during the weekend, so I missed the stir-up about Anders' signature, but I received a U2U from
someone about this).
I think that this forum should allow some freedom in the field of politics, social views and religion. I despise the 'political correctness' of the
last few decades where problems may not be called problems anymore. If there is a problem, be it caused by extreme "Muslims", by Nazi-like people or
by some overzealous "Christian" sect, then it must be called a problem and we should not shy away for pointing in the right direction. I used the ""
on purpose, because I believe that true Muslims, true Christians and true < any religion > do not want to spread fear, terror and murder.
What I observe is that whatever is the main political and social view, there ALWAYS is intolerance towards minority groups or smaller groups. Just an
example: 30 years ago, homesexual marriage was impossible. Nowadays we have homosexual marriage (where I live). 30 years ago there was a lot of
violence against homosexuals which is a very bad thing. Nowadays the homosexual way of life is much more accepted (although sadly still there is some
violence against homosexuals where I live). So, nowadays we have much more acceptance of homosexuals in our society and I think that is a good thing.
But what makes me sad now is the inquisition towards any person who does not agree with homosexual marriage or homesexual life style in general. In
every city in the Netherlands it should be possible to marry homosexuals. But if there is a large city with 20 persons authorized to do marriages, and
one of them feels reluctant to do homosexual marriages (most of these reluctant people are Muslim or conservative Christian), is it really necessary
to spoil life of this single person?? Practically all cities are actively pursuing such people and seek all possibilities to fire them and get rid of
them, even if they are working in a large team of people and even if they are doing their work well. If there are 20 people and one of them feels
reluctant, then I think that the homosexual couple should be so wise to select one of the other 19 people who are willing to do the marriage. Even in
public the Majors of large cities yell about how progressive their city is. The city where I live (200.000 inhabitants, 10+ people who are authorized
to do marriages) will be free of reluctant people by 2014, all of them then either will be fired or will have retired as claimed by our Major in
newspapers and so on.
I just write the above as an example of the result of excess 'political correctness'. There only is tolerance towards the "tolerant". I hope that on
sciencemadness people are wiser. Accept some deviation from the middle line and only pursue the extremes.
[Edited on 29-8-11 by woelen]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | But what makes me sad now is the inquisition towards any person who does not agree with homosexual marriage or homesexual life style in general. In
every city in the Netherlands it should be possible to marry homosexuals. But if there is a large city with 20 persons authorized to do marriages, and
one of them feels reluctant to do homosexual marriages (most of these reluctant people are Muslim or conservative Christian), is it really necessary
to spoil life of this single person?? [Edited on 29-8-11 by woelen] |
For the record, it was me who contacted woelen about Anders Hoveland’s signature because I came across it in a thread in the general chemistry
section (woelen's 'jurisdiction', so to speak). That was before I came across it here in this thread.
As regards the point you raised, I happen to disagree. We either live in a secular society or we don’t. In secular societies, the office of
Registrar is a civil servant’s job and these are there to uphold the law of secular, civil societies. There can be no exceptions. If you can’t
reconcile religious sensitivities with upholding the Law, don’t become a civil servant.
The same holds true of some of the adherents to Islam: we’ve had cases in the UK of Muslims who got hired by supermarkets and then refuse to
‘serve’ alcohol. Well, that’s plain wrong: if your religious sensitivity is in conflict with a given type of job, don’t apply for that job.
Simples, really…
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Mixell
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Woelen, I'm also against the absurd use of political correctness, and I do support a variety of political opinions and world views. But when someone
calls for a whole ethnic group to be imprisoned/departed/murdered, It is just plain wrong. Moreover, if they use Nazi icons (like the swastika, which
appeared in Andres signature) and ideology, That is no longer a "deviation from average political view". That is plain,blind and ignorant hatred. What
can you expect from a person glorifying the ideology of one of the most sophisticated mass murderers of all times. Even without counting the
holocaust, the sole act of declaring war (and maintaining that war) has caused dozens of millions of casualties.
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