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Fantasma4500
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Metal X (need help identifying this metal/alloy)
i have randomly while traveling around in my town found a nice sheet piece of metal.. very shiny.. thought it was steel.. im very confused over this
metal..
so.. what i have observed about this metal so to say..
1. its lightweight (30 x 10 x 1mm weights ~70g)
2. its corrosion resistant, very shiny. also against strong acids
3. it can very easily be bend in half
4. it has a relatively low melting point.. kinda middle of lead and aluminium, but not same properties as aluminium or lead..
what i doubt it is...
i doubt its mainly lead containing as dissolving it with HCl (kickstarted with electrolysis) didnt give a massive precipitate.. didnt see any
precipitate actually..
aluminium would seem strange if it was.. its lightweight, yes.. but it doesnt react very well with acids if at all..
i have looked the periodic table to find some hints mainly going for low densities but stuff like beryllium just seems unlikely to find randomly on a
road..
http://youtu.be/A1y2TRraZyc
i filmed abit with this aswell as getting a precipitate.. insoluble carbonate i got from XxClx (unknown metal, unknown amount of chlorine bound to
metal) and Na2CO3
so a carbonate or hydroxide, but not lead as it would already be insolble chloride (0.65g/100mL, dissolves quite easily)
im aware this might be an alloy.. but still mysterious properties!! im considering to use this metal for cathode for electrolysis as its really
corrosion resistant..
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DraconicAcid
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Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  | i have randomly while traveling around in my town found a nice sheet piece of metal.. very shiny.. thought it was steel.. im very confused over this
metal..
so.. what i have observed about this metal so to say..
1. its lightweight (30 x 10 x 1mm weights ~70g)
2. its corrosion resistant, very shiny. also against strong acids
3. it can very easily be bend in half
4. it has a relatively low melting point.. kinda middle of lead and aluminium, but not same properties as aluminium or lead..
what i doubt it is...
i doubt its mainly lead containing as dissolving it with HCl (kickstarted with electrolysis) didnt give a massive precipitate.. didnt see any
precipitate actually..
aluminium would seem strange if it was.. its lightweight, yes.. but it doesnt react very well with acids if at all..
i have looked the periodic table to find some hints mainly going for low densities but stuff like beryllium just seems unlikely to find randomly on a
road..
http://youtu.be/A1y2TRraZyc
i filmed abit with this aswell as getting a precipitate.. insoluble carbonate i got from XxClx (unknown metal, unknown amount of chlorine bound to
metal) and Na2CO3
so a carbonate or hydroxide, but not lead as it would already be insolble chloride (0.65g/100mL, dissolves quite easily)
im aware this might be an alloy.. but still mysterious properties!! im considering to use this metal for cathode for electrolysis as its really
corrosion resistant.. |
Based on your measurements, that would be a density of about 2.3, which is very light for a metal. Aluminum often doesn't react with acid simply
because the surface is passivated. Try reacting it with concentrated sodium hydroxide, to see if it reacts with that.
The precipitate that you got with sodium carbonate- is it powdery? Gelatinous? Can you collect it and treat it with acid to see if it dissolves to
give CO2? This will tell you if it is a carbonate or a hydroxide.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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DraconicAcid
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Your measurement of density is extremely rough. Cut a piece off, roll it into a cylinder tight enough to be slipped into a graduated cylinder, and
measure its density more precisely.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
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blogfast25
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'Metal X' is almost certainly an Al alloy with mostly Al.
Use sand paper to clean a nice piece, then put it in 50 % (NOT 96 %) H2SO4, it should bubble away quite quickly. Alloying elements can affect acid
resistance, though. Subject it also to strong NaOH or Na2CO3. Demonstrate amphoterism of the formed salts in both cases.
To measure density, take a 'nice and clean' piece and weight it accurately. Then suspend it from a thread into a beaker with clean water that was
tared on your scales (make sure no bubbles adhere to the surface). The 'negative weight' you will record is the weight of the displaced water and
because d = 1 g/cm3 for water it also gives you a fairly accurate reading of the volume of the piece. Divide to get the density.
[Edited on 21-3-2013 by blogfast25]
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Mixell
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Quite often aluminium is alloyed with silicon, which gives a gray tint to precipitated aluminium or gives a grey-black tint to a solution because of
silicon colloid (or alternatively present as a brown-grey voluminous goo, like gunk at the bottom of an aquarium).
If by dissolving it you get a clear and clean solution, that means it's a low-silicon content alloy.
Check the following table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy
I would put my money on it being alloy No. 7068.
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Fantasma4500
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draconic acid: i think i forgot to mention that i have reacted it with NaOH, which was awfully slow.. insanely slow!! somehow missed adding that..
the stuff i got as carbonate or hydroxide is very light fluffy substance... you can see pics of it in the link..
but yes im considering trying to melt a more massive blob out of a smaller part of this material to try and measure the density.. i got some very high
grade ''plane aluminium'' which is whats used for F16's.. perhaps i should compare against that, tho im sure its abit more dense than my metal..?
it should be the HARDEST alloy, but not nessecarily made for flying around in 96% H2SO4 so to say..
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Fantasma4500
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blogfast: i have a graduated 100 mL cylinder.. i think ill perhaps even try to roll it into a small cylinder, some of it and then add say... 5 mL of
it or 10 mL then weight it out.. its pretty clean and the surface stuff is less than 0.1% of the weight, but the surface stuff seems very unreactive
as it didnt even reactive with HCl under electrolysis!!
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Mixell
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Bulk aluminium reacts quite slowly with OH- solution at room temperature (it took me couple of hours to dissolve a 0.5-0.3 cm thick piece in very
concentrated NaOH at 80-90C).
I would also like to mention that alloy 7068 is the strongest commercially available aluminium alloy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7068_aluminium_alloy
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | | the stuff i got as carbonate or hydroxide is very light fluffy substance... you can see pics of it in the link... |
Aluminium reacts with aqeuous NaOH to form sodium aluminate, which is water soluble (NaAl(OH)4). There should be no insoluble precipitate.
But are you sure your metal was clean enough? Insoluble surface dirt could deceptively 'create' a 'precipitate'.
Any silicon in the alloy also dissolves slowly in sodium hydroxide solution.
[Edited on 21-3-2013 by blogfast25]
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Fantasma4500
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Mixell:
i see that its a strong alloy (strong.. how?) i guess they mean strong by not being able to be bend like if it was soft cheese.. i could bend it with
no problem 
but yes probably aluminium alloy.. but would this hold up with cathode use?? aluminium is usually not that good.. also i still highly doubt that its
aluminium as i understand aluminium carbonate which should have been produced will bubble away when its formed..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvxMlWajekk
this reaction i didnt have anywhere near when i mixed the (al??)Cl with Na2CO3 which would produce aluminium carbonate..
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | also i still highly doubt that its aluminium as i understand aluminium carbonate which should have been produced will bubble away when its formed..
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Aluminium carbonate doesn't exist. Al is weakly attacked by strong Na2CO3 and that solution isn't alkaline enough to dissolve Al to aluminate.
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Mixell
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Get some http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminon and test for aluminium.
A 1mm thick sheet should bend easily. My 1.56mm titanium mesh electrodes bend easily as well.
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | | the stuff i got as carbonate or hydroxide is very light fluffy substance... you can see pics of it in the link... |
Aluminium reacts with aqeuous NaOH to form sodium aluminate, which is water soluble (NaAl(OH)4). There should be no insoluble precipitate.
But are you sure your metal was clean enough? Insoluble surface dirt could deceptively 'create' a 'precipitate'.
Any silicon in the alloy also dissolves slowly in sodium hydroxide solution.
[Edited on 21-3-2013 by blogfast25] |
clean enough??
i first reacted the metal with HCl, then i decanted it off, then boiled it down
then i took the dry chloride salt and dissolved in water and added a solution of Na2CO3, then i got a white precipitate, but the white stuff i found
on bottom of my XxClx was pure white.. couldnt have been dirt.. (:
but silicone is possible.. density is apparently
2.604 (5mL / 13.02)
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat | also i still highly doubt that its aluminium as i understand aluminium carbonate which should have been produced will bubble away when its formed..
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Aluminium carbonate doesn't exist. Al is weakly attacked by strong Na2CO3 and that solution isn't alkaline enough to dissolve Al to aluminate.
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exactly.. put a link in one of the replies to ammonium carbonate + aluminium sulfate.. (: it goes into Al2O3 and CO2..
or well H2CO3 which goes into H2O and CO2
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Fantasma4500
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the idea of titanium have striked me a few times... but its density is 2.604 (5mL / 13.02)
so.. thats about half titanium's density..
i might attempt to make this aluminon.. you think i can somehow degenerate acetylicsalicylic acid to salicylic acid? i got formaldehyde already..
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Mixell
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I have around 50g of it, I can send you a bit if you want, if you'll cover the shipping cost.
The solution doesn't look dark or brown at all, so it's not silicon/carbon you got there.
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unionised
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If you have a decent balance it's easy to measure the density.
Get a container big enough to hold the object.
nearly fill it with water.
Put it on the scales and note the weight (or zero the balance)
tie a bit of thread to the object.
Lower the object into the water so that it is all submerged but not touching the sides or bottom of the container.
Record the weight again.
The difference in weights is the upthrust on the object.
Since the density of water is practically 1 gram per ml, the weight difference is equal to the volume of the object.
Weigh the object to get it's mass
The ratio gives you the density.
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blogfast25
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Titanium hardly reacts with conc. H2SO4 or diluted H2SO4. It does react slowly with 36 w% HCl, quicker with boiling, forming deep blue Ti3+ (hydrated)
cations (TiCl3). Add a bit of hydrogen peroxide and it oxidises to a beautiful red Ti(IV) peroxo complex (soluble).
But 'Metal X' is clearly mainly Al. Everything points to it.
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mixell | I have around 50g of it, I can send you a bit if you want, if you'll cover the shipping cost.
The solution doesn't look dark or brown at all, so it's not silicon/carbon you got there. |
ill PM you..
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by unionised | If you have a decent balance it's easy to measure the density.
Get a container big enough to hold the object.
nearly fill it with water.
Put it on the scales and note the weight (or zero the balance)
tie a bit of thread to the object.
Lower the object into the water so that it is all submerged but not touching the sides or bottom of the container.
Record the weight again.
The difference in weights is the upthrust on the object.
Since the density of water is practically 1 gram per ml, the weight difference is equal to the volume of the object.
Weigh the object to get it's mass
The ratio gives you the density.
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yes, the problem with this is that my weight is 0.01g - 100g so i cant really put much weight on there and even a plastic 100 mL graduated cylinder
weights and especially when the limit is 100g (:
i got the density to 2.6 by dividing 5 mL which it filled with the weight (13.02?)
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 |
Titanium hardly reacts with conc. H2SO4 or diluted H2SO4. It does react slowly with 36 w% HCl, quicker with boiling, forming deep blue Ti3+ (hydrated)
cations (TiCl3). Add a bit of hydrogen peroxide and it oxidises to a beautiful red Ti(IV) peroxo complex (soluble).
But 'Metal X' is clearly mainly Al. Everything points to it. |
true, it could definately seem like it...
looks like i will have to take abit of the hydroxide formed (i guess its hydroxide) and add it to H2SO4, or perhaps just use 96% H2SO4 on aluminium to
get some aluminium sulfate so i can approve that aluminium carbonate really is impossible to make...
that way i could turn the product from AlCl3 which it possibly is, into the hydroxide which it apparently is, into sulfate and see that it goes into
Al2O3 to finally confirm, that its most likely aluminium..
despite aluminium being quite weak its showing potential for being used as cathode in ClO3 cell.. Al is usually very easily corroded, tho..
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat |
true, it could definately seem like it...
looks like i will have to take abit of the hydroxide formed (i guess its hydroxide) and add it to H2SO4, or perhaps just use 96% H2SO4 on aluminium to
get some aluminium sulfate so i can approve that aluminium carbonate really is impossible to make... |
Concentrated H2SO4 is really not so suitable for synthing Al2(SO4)3 from Al sheet. Without water the formed Al sulphate has ‘nowhere to go’ and
will clog up the metal’s surface, thereby being an obstacle to further acid attack. Much better to use strong H2SO4 (20 to 50 %), which readily
dissolves Al and the sulphate then enters solution. Concentrated solutions of Al sulphate will crystallise out the sulphate hydrate on cooling.
AlCl3 in solid, crystalline from is hard to obtain from dissolving Al metal in HCl because AlCl3 is essentially a covalent compound (not a salt),
which hydrolyses quickly and thoroughly. Aluminium chloride hydrate can be obtained by gassing a fairly concentrated solution of AlCl3 (in excess
strong HCl) with HCl gas. The white hexahydrate (AlCl3.6H2O) then crystallises out.
[Edited on 22-3-2013 by blogfast25]
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Fantasma4500
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat |
true, it could definately seem like it...
looks like i will have to take abit of the hydroxide formed (i guess its hydroxide) and add it to H2SO4, or perhaps just use 96% H2SO4 on aluminium to
get some aluminium sulfate so i can approve that aluminium carbonate really is impossible to make... |
Concentrated H2SO4 is really not so suitable for synthing Al2(SO4)3 from Al sheet. Without water the formed Al sulphate has ‘nowhere to go’ and
will clog up the metal’s surface, thereby being an obstacle to further acid attack. Much better to use strong H2SO4 (20 to 50 %), which readily
dissolves Al and the sulphate then enters solution. Concentrated solutions of Al sulphate will crystallise out the sulphate hydrate on cooling.
AlCl3 in solid, crystalline from is hard to obtain from dissolving Al metal in HCl because AlCl3 is essentially a covalent compound (not a salt),
which hydrolyses quickly and thoroughly. Aluminium chloride hydrate can be obtained by gassing a fairly concentrated solution of AlCl3 (in excess
strong HCl) with HCl gas. The white hexahydrate (AlCl3.6H2O) then crystallises out.
[Edited on 22-3-2013 by blogfast25] |
hm.. sounds advanced.. think i forgot to mention im expecting some aluminon within not that long time, which one of our helpful members of
sciencemadness is willing to give abit off..
it should give me the answer whether it contains aluminium or not..
but.. the chloride i have got, im confused over this.. (: the chloride.. where did it go then? i mean the aluminium ions cant just go away.. right? it
couldnt have been hydroxide, or well could it? it reacted with carbonate, but not with sulfuric or nitric acid
about the aluminium sulfate..
i added some of my waste aluminium foil to a beaker and some 37% H2SO4
to get the reaction going more well i dropped some 96% H2SO4 onto it aswell, heating also speeds it up abit, but yea i see some white layer forming on
it.. very slow reaction.. have been going since yesterday and i dont really see anything different but a white layer formed..
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat |
hm.. sounds advanced.. think i forgot to mention im expecting some aluminon within not that long time, which one of our helpful members of
sciencemadness is willing to give abit off..
it should give me the answer whether it contains aluminium or not..
but.. the chloride i have got, im confused over this.. (: the chloride.. where did it go then? i mean the aluminium ions cant just go away.. right? it
couldnt have been hydroxide, or well could it? it reacted with carbonate, but not with sulfuric or nitric acid
about the aluminium sulfate..
i added some of my waste aluminium foil to a beaker and some 37% H2SO4
to get the reaction going more well i dropped some 96% H2SO4 onto it aswell, heating also speeds it up abit, but yea i see some white layer forming on
it.. very slow reaction.. have been going since yesterday and i dont really see anything different but a white layer formed.. |
Re. Aluminon: read up properly on how to use it: pH is really important and it won't work as described if you get it wrong.
AlCl3: if you simply evaporate a watery solution of it you obtain a mixture of Al(OH)3 and aluminium hydroxy chlorides but not AlCl3 hydrate. That
because of hydrolysis: the compound reacts with water, very, very simply put as:
AlCl3 + 3 H2O === > Al(OH)3 + 3 HCl
That can be prevented to some extent by keeping the solution highly acidic but once you've evaporated most water, the HCl starts
coming off too, leaving you with a gooyie mess of alumina hydrate and some hydrated AlCl3-n(OH)n hydrate of unknown composition.
Re. your experiment with H2SO4/'Metal X'. For purposes of comparison include a test using the same amount of 'pop can aluminium'. I've used the
opening taps of cans to dissolve them in various acids. They react very swiftly with 50 % H2SO4 (and lower) and after filtering you have a base line
Al3+ solution of approx. known concentration for reference purposes, for instance for your Aluminon test.
[Edited on 23-3-2013 by blogfast25]
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blogfast25
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Here's in an interesting link about the use of Aluminon for Al detection:
http://www.chem.zenkyo.h.kyoto-u.ac.jp/operation/group_2_e.h...
Select the Aluminon Lake video, real interesting...
It would be interesting to see what it does with beryllium compounds too.
[Edited on 23-3-2013 by blogfast25]
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