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Author: Subject: Druken Aga Challenge (DAC) #3 - Closed (but open to discussion)
j_sum1
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[*] posted on 25-2-2015 at 18:59


Pressure cooking retains the water. That's the opposite of what I want to do. I want to convert my soft wet beans to something that is going to combust at a high temperature.
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[*] posted on 25-2-2015 at 21:51


Blowing warm air through the beans for a couple hours with a hair dryer is probably your best bet in such foul weather. A big coffee tin with a hair dryer-sized hole cut out on the bottom side aught to do the trick? Spousal endorsement may vary.



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[*] posted on 25-2-2015 at 22:04


Biiiiiig coffee tin. The expanded beans come to approx 8 Litres.

I have a hooded BBQ that I can spread the beans out in a single layer and set to 100 degrees and process in a couple of batches. I think that will be fine.
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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 00:20


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Biiiiiig coffee tin. The expanded beans come to approx 8 Litres.

I have a hooded BBQ that I can spread the beans out in a single layer and set to 100 degrees and process in a couple of batches. I think that will be fine.


Sounds great, but i'd try to aim for a lower temperature (~60°C), if the starch begins to cook, you might end up with a right mess :mad:

[Edited on 26-2-2015 by deltaH]




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 01:34


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Pressure cooking retains the water. That's the opposite of what I want to do. I want to convert my soft wet beans to something that is going to combust at a high temperature.



I understand that.

What I mean is, pressure cook the beans, then remove the pressure valve, lower the heat, and carefully monitor the pot on the heat until the beans are dry.

Pretend it was your turn to cook dinner, and you really wanted to go out to eat...




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 01:53


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Pressure cooking retains the water. That's the opposite of what I want to do. I want to convert my soft wet beans to something that is going to combust at a high temperature.



I understand that.

What I mean is, pressure cook the beans, then remove the pressure valve, lower the heat, and carefully monitor the pot on the heat until the beans are dry.

Pretend it was your turn to cook dinner, and you really wanted to go out to eat...


I like the idea of pyrolysing the beans in the absence of air to make soybean char. This should burn much hotter and vigorously than dried soy alone and the fuel nitrogen should remain trapped in the carbon matrix so long as the pyrolysis is not unreasonably hot, which it won't be.

The barbie version would be to wrap the beans in heavy duty foil to make parcels and throw them straight onto the barbie coals... you know, same way as making potatoes. If you leave them on for a long time, they should partially or completely char. The foil should keep air sufficiently out but water vapour and pyrolysis gases should force their way out between the wrapping. Considering the number of time I'm managed to blacken my potatoes, this shouldn't be too hard :D

j_sum perhaps you could try both versions on your barbie simultaneously and see which one (or neither) performs better later in NOx production.

Presumably, the resulting nitrogen content of the char would also be much higher than dry bean due to the loss of all the hydroxyl groups as water (useless constituent calorically speaking anyhow).

Plus, when you light that char up with forced air, I wouldn't be surprised if it burns white hot like a bellowed smithy.

[Edited on 26-2-2015 by deltaH]




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 05:40


Oh, forgot to say that a soybean char would probably take up a catalyst solution far more effectively... obviously it's not activated charcoal, but nevertheless.

A future bean preprep methodology might be:

(1) Roast dry beans in a tin with small hole on a fire till black.
(2) Impregnate with catalyst solution.
(3) Air dry in the sun (being black helps here).

Sounds like we have the makings of an industrial process. Sustainably produced nitric acid at only *five* times the price :P

Still, fossil fuels aren't going to abound forever...

[Edited on 26-2-2015 by deltaH]




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 07:10


This got me thinking... Converting the starches in the beans into sugar...

I'm curious if sprouting the beans, allowing the enzymes to develop, Sparging them for an hour to convert the starch, and then soaking in your solution, and drying would be a benefit.

You would have the added caloric value of the sugars. Whether it is worth the extra effort... IDK.




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 08:28


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
This got me thinking... Converting the starches in the beans into sugar...

I'm curious if sprouting the beans, allowing the enzymes to develop, Sparging them for an hour to convert the starch, and then soaking in your solution, and drying would be a benefit.

You would have the added caloric value of the sugars. Whether it is worth the extra effort... IDK.


No, I think you would be making things worse.

Hydrolysis of starch introduces water into the molecule (hence the word hydro=water, lysis=splitting) and so drops the calorific value, for example, compare the heat of combustion of glucose (15.6MJ/kg)[1] to that of starch (17.3MJ/kg)[1].

Furthermore, even starch is not that great because it also contains plenty of hydroxyl groups. Pyrolysis eliminates these as water which is why it ups the calorific value of the resulting fuel, compare for example with the heat of combustion of carbon (32.8MJ/kg). The better fuels are rich in just C and H.

References:

[1] Kabo, G.J. et al. (2013). Thermodynamic properties of starch and glucose. J. Chem. Thermodynamics 59, pp. 87-93.

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_combustion

[Edited on 26-2-2015 by deltaH]




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 13:30


Bean pyrolysis. Hmm.

Methinks i got a few Kg of beans and a Pyrolyser capable of about 10Kg ...




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 14:55


Aga:

I hope you're not thinking this is going to be easy. At the very least go back to the document that inspired this idea. The useless murder of beans by burning them alive cannot be condoned. ;)




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 15:00


Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
This got me thinking... Converting the starches in the beans into sugar...



Ferment the sugar, distil off the EtOH to 95 %. Dry the rest of the beans, mix them with catalyst and burn them with the EtOH? :D

[bullshit off]

[Edited on 26-2-2015 by blogfast25]




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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 15:11


You're three steps ahead of me there.

(gazuntite) :P





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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 15:14


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Aga:

I hope you're not thinking this is going to be easy. At the very least go back to the document that inspired this idea. The useless murder of beans by burning them alive cannot be condoned. ;)

A flurry of new ideas. Unfortunately I have to keep this practical. I will get some time this weekend to do a bit but there are limitations. It is unlikely that I will be able to compare different bean processing ideas for effectiveness. I might try processing the beans in different ways but it is likely that I will only have time to do one furnace run and all the gases collected will be mixed.

Which probably means there is plenty of scope for someone else to do some experimenting. Remember, beans were free in my case and should be low cost if they have to be purchased. the equipment I am using is literally junk. There is a multitude of helpful ideas being offered here. Thanks to aga's generosity, the rewards are large. The only real cost is time. There should be other competitors active.
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[*] posted on 26-2-2015 at 16:01


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Remember, beans were free in my case and should be low cost if they have to be purchased.


At such an embryonic state of development cold shouldn't be much of a concern. That's how Big Research usually proceeds. Cost can always be cut later.




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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 17:59


"cold" blogfast? I think that's a typo.
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For those following this saga; and I admit there are probably better things on TV, here is the latest update.

1.7 kg of soy beans have been soaked in a solution of copper sulfate and potassium permanganate. After a week of "natural drying" in questionable weather conditions, they have been subjected to a few hours of slow drying on the barbecue at a temperature low enough to make them remain touchable by hand. They lost just on10% of their original mass which corresponds nicely to a tested moisture level of 10.7%. They are now slightly larger than they were when I got them. They are dark brown with the appearance of coffee beans. They are quite hard to crush and there is little visible evidence of the manganese and copper compounds having soaked in to any appreciable degree.

Redesigned furnace has been constructed and a preliminary test of the new spray mechanism suggests that it will work well with the water able to be recycled through the system. A method has been devised and tested for boiling down the acid to increase its concentration.

The latest hurdle however is a bit of a critical one. Soy beans do not appear to burn. Heating to high temperature with a propane torch does not result in a self-sustaining flame. Nor does addition of crushed hexamine.

Two possible avenues present themselves from this point:
(a) charring the beans in the absence of O2 to eliminate all hydroxyl groups. I must confess that I have no idea what effect this will have on the protein content and how much of the N will be lost. I accept that a char will have a higher heat of combustion and is more likely to sustain a constant flame than uncharred beans. It is also likely that they will require a high temperature to ignite. Hopefully I won't need a coal fire to get them started.
(b) run a test omitting the Mn or Cu or both. There may be some flame retardation occurring here.
(c) (Ok, so I can't count) Revert to peanuts at least for a proof of concept.

This third option is the least time intensive and will at least give a preliminary result. With that in mind I have purchased another 375g of nuts to toast. I know they at least burn and burn hot.
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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 18:05


I'll buy you the chemicals, and give you 200. bucks.

Without a doubt... The thread has wondered from EASY!

U2U me an address, and win the prize. :cool:




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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 18:07


Why not char about twenty grams of it and see if it burns. No point in waisting it all on something that won't work, but just speculating isn't going to burn the beans either. Might as well give it a spark.



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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 18:12


Charring 20 grams will take the same time as charring 200g. (I have got 3.4kg to play with and can get more if needed so I am not worried about using it up.)
Dusting some peanuts with MnO and CuO will take almost no time. But either way, it is not going to happen this weekend.
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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 18:18


Soybeans are known to undergo spontaneous combustion in storage. I'm very surprised yours won't burn even impregnated with an oxidizer.
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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 18:55


Spontanious combustion sucks...

burning_man_by_leakingtable-d4r6vas.jpg - 245kB




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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 19:26


Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Soybeans are known to undergo spontaneous combustion in storage. I'm very surprised yours won't burn even impregnated with an oxidizer.

Most spontaneous combustion scenarios are a result of moisture, the action of bacteria, a resultant increase in temperature and the presence of volatiles. I think I have effectively eliminated all four of these.
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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 20:32


Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Soybeans are known to undergo spontaneous combustion in storage. I'm very surprised yours won't burn even impregnated with an oxidizer.

Most spontaneous combustion scenarios are a result of moisture, the action of bacteria, a resultant increase in temperature and the presence of volatiles. I think I have effectively eliminated all four of these.



You forgot Zombie juice. That is important! :(




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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 21:28


j_sum, while I am a fan of mildly pyrolysing the beans (bean charcoal), a quick fix might be to employ a mixture of beans and ordinary charcoal in the furnace.



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[*] posted on 28-2-2015 at 21:46


If you have one, I would suggest using a heat gun of the type used to remove paint. The one I have can heat air up enough to turn wood brown, so I imagine if you used this as a air source instead of a hair dryer you should be able to sustain combustion quite easily.
They can probably be bought fairly cheaply too, since they are essentially a resistor in front of a fan.
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