| Pages:
1
2 |
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Extra Terrestrial Reactions
Has anyone had a look at how reactions proceed when off the surface of this planet ?
It occurred to me that our Standard Conditions may well be self-limiting.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by aga  | Has anyone had a look at how reactions proceed when off the surface of this planet ?
It occurred to me that our Standard Conditions may well be self-limiting. |
Most models in chemistry are not confined to STP conditions.
|
|
|
Molecular Manipulations
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 17-12-2014
Location: The Garden of Eden
Member Is Offline
Mood: High on forbidden fruit
|
|
Besides the vacuum, what other conditions do you mean?
I've done plenty of reactions under partial vacuum (I can do .0002 mm hg). Since vacuum doesn't really have much air in it, perhaps you mean without
oxygen as well? Cause, although I lack a glovebox, I've done a few reactions under inert gasses too.
In the near zero Kelvin temperatures of space, certainly reactions would proceed much slower.
Or did you just mean on an airplane?
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
I was thinking more of reaction conditions free (at least partially) from a large gravitational mass and a vast electromagnetic field.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4278
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aga | | I was thinking more of reaction conditions free (at least partially) from a large gravitational mass and a vast electromagnetic field.
|
Most reactions aren't affect much by either, apart from precipitations and crystallizations where the solids sink to the bottom of the beaker.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
Well, for sure there will be very few references to substantiate that claim.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What claim specifically?
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | | Quote: Originally posted by aga | | I was thinking more of reaction conditions free (at least partially) from a large gravitational mass and a vast electromagnetic field.
|
Most reactions aren't affect much by either, apart from precipitations and crystallizations where the solids sink to the bottom of the beaker.
|
This claim.
This could be a very interesting topic.
Just as a kick start... I am curious if a crystallization could occur in another environment such as deep space.
The implications of this could be far reaching in how we view things.
Take the "big bang" theory... or absolute vacuum or black holes. All of our known rules that we assume worked in these major events could be
meaningless, thereby negating what we think we know.
IF compounds can not form crystals in these conditions... what else can not happen?
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Oscilllator
National Hazard
Posts: 659
Registered: 8-10-2012
Location: The aqueous layer
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The ISS does reactions in a zero g environment. I believe zero g enables you to make crystals of delicate compounds such as proteins, so you can do
x-ray crystallography on them etc.
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Interesting... The ISS is a micro gravity station, and not truely "0" gravity tho.
You also have to account for temperature here, and magnetic/electro magnetic influence.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022024801...
Abstract
The Center for Biophysical Sciences and Engineering (CBSE) at the University of Alabama at Birmingham has performed protein crystal growth experiments
on more than 39 US space shuttle missions. Results from these experiments have clearly demonstrated that the microgravity environment is beneficial in
that a number of proteins crystallized were larger and of higher quality than their Earth-grown counterparts. Improvement in crystal quality is judged
by analysis of ultimate diffraction resolution, individual peak mosaicity, and electron density maps. There are now a number of protein crystals that
exhibited resolution improvements of 0.5–1.5 Å. Mosaicity studies revealed dramatic decreases in peak widths for the microgravity-grown crystals.
These microgravity results plus data from a variety of other investigators have stimulated various space agencies to support fundamental studies in
macromolecular crystal growth processes. The CBSE has devoted substantial effort toward the development of dynamically controlled crystal growth
systems which allow scientists to optimize crystallization parameters on Earth or in space. These systems enable monitoring and control of the
approach to nucleation and post-nucleation growth phases, thereby dramatically improving the crystal size and X-ray diffraction characteristics.
I'm curious about heavier compounds like copper or metals.
[Edited on 5-8-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2531
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
Radio and IR measurements are used to study chemistry in space.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrochemistry
It's surprising how much complex stuff is out there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_interstellar_and_circu...
|
|
|
Molecular Manipulations
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 17-12-2014
Location: The Garden of Eden
Member Is Offline
Mood: High on forbidden fruit
|
|
Exactly, some crystals are grown in space to prevent their delicate structures from being destroyed by gravity.
From Wikipedia:Space manufacturing is the production of manufactured goods in an environment outside a planetary atmosphere. Typically this includes
conditions of microgravity and hard vacuum. Manufacturing in space has several potential advantages over Earth-based industry.
The unique environment can allow for industrial processes that cannot be readily reproduced on Earth.
Raw materials could be lifted to orbit from other bodies within the solar system and processed at a low expense compared to the cost of lifting
materials into orbit from Earth.
Potentially hazardous processes can be performed in space with minimal risk to the environment of the Earth or other planets.
Items too large to launch on a rocket can be assembled in orbit for use in orbit.
As for the magnetic field of the earth, well first it's just photons that make it, and second, except near the poles, most of the photons are way, way
above us. If they could interact with chemical reactions, you'd notice it more in space than on earth (except deep space). Photons of all wavelengths
bump into substances all the time from other sources (namely the sun and background radiation) so why would these be any different?
Also photons can interact a little. They can "knock" electrons out of their orbits (for a short time). We would never notice this except that these
free electrons allow materials to conduct electricity better than they otherwise would. This discovery was a huge step into quantum mechanics
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Potentially hazardous for bank account, though... 
|
|
|
Molecular Manipulations
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 17-12-2014
Location: The Garden of Eden
Member Is Offline
Mood: High on forbidden fruit
|
|
"Potentially hazardous" might mean thermonuclear weapons, hardly a drop in the bucket of government funds if that's the case.
I think the "Potentially" part is unneeded for that though.
[Edited on 8-5-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Well lets break it down into one simple thing.
Lets say a metal crystal. If you grew a crystal in "deep space" what would the difference(s) be?
From this maybe we can extrapolate the idea into other actions, re-actions, processes.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Molecular Manipulations
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 17-12-2014
Location: The Garden of Eden
Member Is Offline
Mood: High on forbidden fruit
|
|
Probably nothing. Metal crystals are very strong (generally) and don't require anything special. It's when you get to the very fragile stuff that the
Earth's gravity can damage it.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
|
|
|
Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
|
|
Well that's kind of what I'm wondering about. Density.
Would a crystal grown in space be any less dense? What would the implications be on returning that crystal to gravity?
To top it off... I wonder what "could" be a crystalline structure in space that we do not think could be a crystal.
Water? Ice is a crystal, water in space is ice... What other implications are there?
[Edited on 5-8-2015 by Zombie]
[Edited on 5-8-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
|
|
|
Molecular Manipulations
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 17-12-2014
Location: The Garden of Eden
Member Is Offline
Mood: High on forbidden fruit
|
|
About the density I also doubt that would be affected much. Gravity is the weakest of the four fundamental forces. The one that holds crystals
together is the electromagnetic force, the second weakest. In ionic crystals (e.g. sodium chloride) the electrons are more or less given from sodium
to chlorine and they are then very strongly bonded due to the opposite charges' attraction to each other. Thus they bond in a very ordered, repeating
pattern. If one ion slides in one direction it will be next to a similarly charged ion, and a crack will form throughout the whole crystal causing the
entire row to shift until it can escape somewhere to keep the like charges balanced by its opposite charge.
You would need some massive gravity to cause these electrons that 'hate' each other so much to compress to any reasonable extent. Gasses compress
easily because they are mostly empty space, liquids compress very little and most solids even less.
Also, even if pressure, gravity or any other force caused a crystal to form more dense or less dense than on Earth, it's not like the crystal's
density is 'set in stone' (although it literally is). The electromagnetic force is obviously still in play after the crystal forms. So if it's very
compressed under pressure, as soon as the pressure is released it will revert to its standard density under the new conditions. Just like if you push
two like poles of a magnet until they touch, once you let go they'll push apart again (or one will turn around so the opposite poles touch).
Regarding substances forming crystals in space that don't form crystals, IIRC most everything forms them. Ionic compounds because of attractions of
charges, covalent crystals due to physical bonds from shared electrons, and the rest is something in between. Even most liquids are bonded together,
in fact liquids near their melting point have only broken ~10% of the bonds normally in their strong crystalline structure.
I don't really know what you mean by most of the rest of your post, care to elaborate?
[Edited on 8-5-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie | Would a crystal grown in space be any less dense? What would the implications be on returning that crystal to gravity?
|
In the vast majority of cases a crystal's properties are not (and CANNOT) be affected by gravity.
Take one of the simplest cases: sodium chloride ('table salt'). The crystal's properties (yup, all of them, crystal density included) depends entirely
on how the sodium and chloride ions interact electrostatically and 'settle' into the well-known 'chequered flag' three dimensional lattice. Gravity
does not affect the outcome.
In other cases, like ice, the interactions between molecules needed to keep the molecular lattice together are slightly different (but are still based
on electrostatic attractions/repulsions) but are also unaffected by gravity. Ice = 'space ice'.
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2531
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
The whole reason for growing crystals in space is that convection doesn't happen in microgravity, so crystal growth is more controlled and crystals
can grow to larger size.
@Blogfast: Ice is a bad example, given that it can take multiple forms. You're right in general, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_ice#Amorphous_Ice_in...
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Amorphous ice isn't crystalline but super-cooled liquids still arise from electrostatic interactions between molecules.
|
|
|
phlogiston
International Hazard
Posts: 1376
Registered: 26-4-2008
Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur
Member Is Offline
Mood: pyrophoric
|
|
The reason they are trying to grow protein crystals in space is that they hope to obtain more regular crystals with less defects.
This is important to obtain good resolution in x-ray structure determination.
The bulk properties (density, etc) of the crystals are essentially identical to the crystals obtained on earth.
-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
|
|
Mailinmypocket
International Hazard
Posts: 1351
Registered: 12-5-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Being a diabetic I was recently reading about different types of insulin (more specifically how one of mine, insulin glargine, works by forming
crystals under the skin that slowly dissolve to produce a time release effect) and came across this and thought it was very interesting:
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/1998/no...
Note to self: Tare the damned flask.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
As a chemist enthusiast, have you ever attempted to extract/fabricate insulin ?
Clearly it can be done, as you have a steady supply.
Personally if i were diabetic, i would be sorely tempted to systhesise my own, which would kind of square the body/mind thing neatly.
|
|
|
polypyrrole
Harmless
Posts: 2
Registered: 8-5-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Insulin is a hugely complex molecule, currently it's produced by genetically modified micro organisms that are infinitely better chemists than even
our most gifted.
Total synthesis of insulin is beyond even the most well equipped high level research labs, as an enthusiast, you might as well be trying to turn lead
into gold.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
