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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  |
Correct me if I am wrong but aren't black holes all theory? Perhaps accepted theory but theory none the less? |
Have a look at the evidence for a massive black hole at the centre of our Galaxy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermassive_black_hole#In_the_...
EVERYTHING is theory, Zomb. But that doesn't mean there isn't strong evidence for it. Black hole theory is very well developed. And vacuums don't
enter into it, not sure why you are trying to connect?
'Young Earth Creationist Yokel:' "Science is a hoax perpetrated by academic libruhls to extract money from DC, lie to our innocent little children
and spend the money on promoting Gay marriage. Repent or the Awlmighty will strike yee down and punish G-d's own country!"
(sorry, couldn't resist!  )
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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I'm trying to wrap my head around a real difference between an intense vacuum, and massive gravity.
I can only theorize that immense vacuum would be created by complete absence of matter at its core.
To ME that is far more logical than some enormously compact clump of matter trying to suck all of Newtons apples into it.
If the former is true then a virtual particle field COULD be the cause of the event horizon, where our physical laws do not apply ie: light
transmission, detectable matter. The boundary of the horizon is / could be observable evidence of theoretical minimum in action.
Due solely to the immense scale it becomes observable.
If the later is correct then I would have to believe that atomic fusion would be occurring on a Massive scale, and force would have an equal, and
opposite reaction. Sort of negating the entire idea.
Work with me on this black hole / absence of matter idea... I'll give you all the credit for the discovery at the Nobel Dinner! I just want that good
bottle of wine I hear they serve.
Again... Not being a smart ass, It's just that mechanically it makes MUCH more sense. Like a giant drain in the bathtub vs. jamming everything into
the toilet, closing the lid, and saying Ta Da!!! It's gone!
It's sort of cool being ignorant to most of this.
You can see things that might have been overlooked. After all it IS all speculation / theory.
Edit:
" "Science is a hoax perpetrated by academic libruhls to extract money"
I'll give ya that one! No discussion needed! 
Na! It's all this Hawkins Black hole crap I'm having a tough time with. It physically makes no sense.
Nothing in the center works. Like a vacuum hose.
Massive atom pile... not so good for me.
[Edited on 2-24-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Zomb:
You've resorted to unanswerable jibberish.
But let's look at this:
| Quote: Originally posted by Zombie |
To ME that is far more logical than some enormously compact clump of matter trying to suck all of Newtons apples into it.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#Newton.27s_theory_of_gr...
It might help you understand how massive black holes arise?
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Zombie
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Ok
A group of professors are sitting at a table in the back of some swanky / upscale bar.
Two rednecks walk in. One goes to the professors, and one goes to the bar tender.
The redneck at the bar say... Barkeep... I'll bet you $100.00 that if you set a shot glass all the way down at the end of the bar, I can stand at this
end, and piss directly into that glass.
Every single drop will fall into that shot glass.
Bartender winks at the professors, and sets down the shot glass.
Redneck pulls it out, and starts pee'ing all over the bar, the bottles, the bar keep, everywhere.
Bar tender wipes his face, smiles, and sticks out his hand to collect his hundred bucks.
Rednecks leave, and the professors approach the barkeep.
WTF is WRONG with you, they yell.
Bartender says, What? I just made a hundred bucks! All I have to do is clean up some pee!
Professor says, You just cost us 1,000.00 EACH.
That F'n redneck bet us 5 grand his buddy could piss all over you, and your bar, and you'd be Happy about it!
It's all in how you look at things...
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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Yeah, I kind of get it. It just seems that there are too many assumptions, and math made up to fit the problems.
I know real smart people have looked at this for centuries, but they are all patting each others backs.
Going back to England's theory in the beginning... It's simple, elegant, and fits into a void in most of the accepted theories.
I get it... I'm not the guy that states gravity is wrong because of Centrifugal force, or that immense mass as the core of a black hole sounds just
insane... but the first guy that proves any of this will be my hero for life.
Obviously I don't believe one word of theory as fact. It's been the same all through my life. I understand the concepts, and I can see how they are
convincing to some / most people but if people believe in a closet monster, I don't think I have to. If I want to spend time thinking about what is
really in there I will. Most of the time I'm worried about feeding the dogs, and paying property tax so I don't bother.
I will say this... I believe that the few thoughts I have on the whole gravity / anti gravity deal can be or are just as valid as any other concept I
have heard throughout my life.
Most of the ideas you have pointed me toward in this thread sort of solidify this for me. The whole package gets a little neater.
I'm telling you... I'll let you get all the good stuff at the banquet, if you let me take home the wine.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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"A photon checks into a hotel. The clerk asks if he needs help with luggage. Photon replies, "i dont have any, I'm traveling light."
Jokes aside, poor understanding of basic concepts and conflation of terms leads to gibberish, pseudo-science and snake oil merchants.
Home work: define 'Energy' scientifically.
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Molecular Manipulations
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Very interesting thread.
Even if a perfect vacuum did exist, it would still contain the background radiation right? I believe this is why space is the temperature it is, but
space does contain matter, just not very much, so if there's no atoms to vibrate, how can a temperature be measured?
Another off topic question that's been bugging me for a while: how can the event horizon be the same for all wavelengths of light? A smaller
wavelength has to travel faster, because it's path is far less direct, it makes sharper turns. Sure, it travels from point A to point B in the same
amount of time as any other light, but each photon must travel a greater distance overall relative lower energy photons. I always assumed that was how
a high-energy photon manifests it's energy. My only explanation is that since it's going faster, it's weight is proportionally greater relative it's
energy according to E=Mc2. Thus a high energy photon goes faster but weighs more, so it's ability to escape a black hole is the same as any
other photon. I'm guessing this comes down to the whole "particles behave like waves" and vice-versa.
Does this make any sense? I'm just a chemist pretending to understand physics so I might sound completely stupid...
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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Fulmen
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I think you are pushing the mechanical model a bit too far. A photon is sometimes described as both a wave and a particle. It's not. A particle cannot
move in a sinusoidal path without being constantly accelerated, what could provide the force for this? A photon is something completely different, but
it's behavior can be described as either (or both) a wave and a particle. Big difference.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations | Very interesting thread.
Even if a perfect vacuum did exist, it would still contain the background radiation right? I believe this is why space is the temperature it is, but
space does contain matter, just not very much, so if there's no atoms to vibrate, how can a temperature be measured?
Does this make any sense? I'm just a chemist pretending to understand physics so I might sound completely stupid...
|
The cosmic microwave radiation isn't magical: you can shield against it like you do against any other radiation. There's no CMR inside a thermos
flask, for instance.
Remember what temperature really is: a measure of the average kinetic energy of atoms/molecules of that object.
When you plunge a (cold) mercury thermometer into a cup of boiling water, the fast water molecules collide with the cold thermometer's material, thus
transferring kinetic energy to them: the thermometer heats up.
In outer space, where there are very few atoms/molecules and very little radiation energy (all radiating bodies being far away), very little kinetic
energy can be transferred to the atoms/molecules of a thermometer and the thermometer would cool down due to emission radiation (IR).
So why would a vacuum created on earth and shielded from radiation not be cold? Because as long as the container isn't cold it radiates heat.
I'm not well versed in event horizon issues, sorry.
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Molecular Manipulations
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Got it. But how does the heat transfer without a medium? Inferred rays or somthing?
I don't think there's really an issue with the event horizon, just a lack of understand on my part.
Fulmen, so basically a photon can be described as a particle but only behaves like a wave? Photons do have mass right?
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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Fulmen
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No, photons are regarded as massless. And it doesn't behave only like a wave, in fact it does behave like both at the same time. If you set up an
experiment to confirm it's particle nature you will find it's a particle, the same happens if you test it's wave properties.
When it comes to vacuum you will of course always have radiation that will transfer energy. But as blogfast points out the term temperature is tied to
kinetic energy of matter. Without matter the term temperature has no meaning. However, such a thing as a perfect vacuum doesn't exist. In all gases
there is space between the individual molecules, it really doesn't matter if it's a nanometer or a light year. If you measure a large enough portion
of space you will find enough matter to be ably to define it's temperature.
In addition there is quantum fluctuations which produce virtual particles in other-vice empty space.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations | Very interesting thread.
Even if a perfect vacuum did exist, it would still contain the background radiation right? I believe this is why space is the temperature it is, but
space does contain matter, just not very much, so if there's no atoms to vibrate, how can a temperature be measured?
Does this make any sense? I'm just a chemist pretending to understand physics so I might sound completely stupid...
|
The cosmic microwave radiation isn't magical: you can shield against it like you do against any other radiation. There's no CMR inside a thermos
flask, for instance.
Remember what temperature really is: a measure of the average kinetic energy of atoms/molecules of that object.
When you plunge a (cold) mercury thermometer into a cup of boiling water, the fast water molecules collide with the cold thermometer's material, thus
transferring kinetic energy to them: the thermometer heats up.
In outer space, where there are very few atoms/molecules and very little radiation energy (all radiating bodies being far away), very little kinetic
energy can be transferred to the atoms/molecules of a thermometer and the thermometer would cool down due to emission radiation (IR).
So why would a vacuum created on earth and shielded from radiation not be cold? Because as long as the container isn't cold it radiates heat.
I'm not well versed in event horizon issues, sorry. |
This is the point where I am removing the vacuums container, and placing it directly at the center of the event horizon.
In this train of thought it could be modeled after a drain in the ocean. There will be a direct measurable effect at or near this drain but as you
move outwards the effect will eventually diminish just as in theoretical minimum.
This opens the door to where does it go?
Parallel dimension? Every action has an equal, and opposite reaction... Perhaps the other side (in my version) is the BIG Bang!
Perhaps this cycle is continuous, and never ending?
Risking gibberish... why not?
[Edited on 2-24-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | No, photons are regarded as massless. And it doesn't behave only like a wave, in fact it does behave like both at the same time. If you set up an
experiment to confirm it's particle nature you will find it's a particle, the same happens if you test it's wave properties.
When it comes to vacuum you will of course always have radiation that will transfer energy. But as blogfast points out the term temperature is tied to
kinetic energy of matter. Without matter the term temperature has no meaning. However, such a thing as a perfect vacuum doesn't exist. In all gases
there is space between the individual molecules, it really doesn't matter if it's a nanometer or a light year. If you measure a large enough portion
of space you will find enough matter to be ably to define it's temperature.
In addition there is quantum fluctuations which produce virtual particles in other-vice empty space. |
This reminds me of "flat earth"
Just because we can not create it or find a formula to explain it in our infinite wisdom, IMHO it certainly does not mean that perfect vacuum can not
exist.
My post above this is supposing a drain on this side, and an explosion of molecules on the other.
It sort of perfectly explains everything I have so far read on England's work. As well as every reference used since. Minus the gravity fellas...
The point of the entire thread.
I had to edit...
I am in NO way attempting to re-invent the wheel. I am however trying to look at everything we know in a new light. Perhaps the evidence can be re
arranged in a more logical order.
If you follow you end up at the same place as the others.
[Edited on 2-24-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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Molecular Manipulations
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How can you say this? No container could maintain a perfect vacuum. Everything sublimates.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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Zombie
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What about the universe as a container?
Black holes being the center of the negative pressure.
Yes eventually you would be correct. A sublimation would occur. But happens at that exact moment? Where does what existed go?
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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Molecular Manipulations
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Into the black hole?
[Edit] I guess I misunderstood the question. You mean a void in the center of a black hole? Is that a joke? It would instantly collapse on itself.
BTW black holes are not made of matter like protons or neutrons.
All matter has density, defined as an object’s mass divided by its volume; substances that have the same mass in a smaller size have greater
density. To give a few examples, water has a density of 1 gram per cubic centimeter, and osmium, the densest element, weighs in at 22.6 grams per
cubic centimeter. Stellar remnants such as neutron stars are extremely dense, weighing in at millions of tons per cubic centimeter. These stars are
composed not of atoms but particles such as electrons and neutrons; the pressure of gravity is too high for atoms to exist. A black hole goes a step
further, crushing even neutrons; its density is infinite
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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Zombie
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I do get the concept of a black hole as it is understood.
I'm just trying to look at it from another view point.
If it were a vacuum it would not necessarily collapse, any more than your house collapses when you vacuum the drapes.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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Molecular Manipulations
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Oh, good point. I hadn't thought of it from the drapes perspective, thanks for enlightening me!
But really to hell it would collapse, does the pope shit in the woods, yes, yes he does.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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Zombie
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It's Bear. Bears crap in the woods...
Popes don't poop.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
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blogfast25
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Zombie:
You are making such wild assertions and links here that all meaning is lost, IMHO.
The art is to try and simplify, not needlessly 'complexify'.
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Molecular Manipulations
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I don't think you do. Infinite density. Infinite.
That means a black hole weighing as much as this galaxy takes up ZERO space. Not even the diameter of an electron. You can't have matter inside
something that has no size, it makes no sense.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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blogfast25
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Surely you've been taught the wave/particle duality?
And it works both ways: moving electrons also behave like waves. That's the basis of quantum chemistry, i.e. the theory of the chemical
bond!
[Edited on 24-2-2015 by blogfast25]
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Molecular Manipulations
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Yes of course I understand the electron wave-particle duality well. I don't understand much about photons though. Like I said, I'm more of a chemist
then a physicist, and I intend on keeping it that way!
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations | | Yes of course I understand the electron wave-particle duality well. I don't understand much about photons though. Like I said, I'm more of a chemist
then a physicist, and I intend on keeping it that way! |
Physics and chemistry, it's all just science.
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Molecular Manipulations
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In the same way a Ford and Ferrari are just cars. Physics is great, reliable and fun, but chemistry can really take you for a ride if you go all the
way. Analogy makes no sense, I know.
-The manipulator
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know. -W. H. Auden
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